thekz Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Hello, I would like to hear your opinion on one of the most beautiful camouflages of the Second World War - the battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth 1941 This is how it looks in an illustration from the book Les Brown And this is how Alen Raven The question is not even about the shape of the paterns - it certainly needs to be clarified. I find the range of colors offered by Les Brown rather strange. Isn't it logical to assume the standard MS1-MS2-MS3-507C set for that time? The color white seems especially strange to me. Take a look at this photo: you can clearly see the white waterline mark on a “white” background. In short, I will be very glad to all well-reasoned opinions on this matter. Especially interesting is the opinion by @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 You're correct - the background paint colour very clearly isn't white. This is one of those messy 1941 designs. My imagination might be playing tricks on me but I keep visualising a still from a colour cinefilm with a glimpse of HMS Queen Elizabeth wearing this scheme in it, but I've no idea where I might have seen it. I'd like to tag @dickrd in this. The first step is to verify the placement of colour demarcations then agree how many different tones of paint are actually there. Whilst it may seem secondary, we have to know how many paints are there and grade each paint in order of its tone relative to its neighbours. That process can narrow down likely candidates for the paint. I really need HMS Queen Elizabeth as a vector drawing for this - I don't really have time to draw it at the moment unfortunately but could certainly play with paint colours on it if I had it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted July 14, 2021 Author Share Posted July 14, 2021 33 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: I really need HMS Queen Elizabeth as a vector drawing for this - I don't really have time to draw it at the moment unfortunately but could certainly play with paint colours on it if I had it. I have such pictures of course, this is not a vector, but maybe they will do 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted July 14, 2021 Author Share Posted July 14, 2021 4 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: I really need HMS Queen Elizabeth as a vector drawing for this - I don't really have time to draw it at the moment unfortunately but could certainly play with paint colours on it if I had it Specify the task, please: do you need a vector drawing of a ship or only camouflage spots superimposed on a raster image of the ship should be vectors? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 The way I normally draw camouflage profiles - especially when they need iterations - is to have a transparent line drawing as my upper layer and draw two or more colour layers behind. I use these background layers to work purely on camouflage and I can do so without affecting the line drawing. That method allows me to make numerous copies of the whole set of layers if I want to try changing one paint colour for another, and so on. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted July 15, 2021 Author Share Posted July 15, 2021 12 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said: The way I normally draw camouflage profiles - especially when they need iterations - is to have a transparent line drawing as my upper layer and draw two or more colour layers behind. I use these background layers to work purely on camouflage and I can do so without affecting the line drawing. That method allows me to make numerous copies of the whole set of layers if I want to try changing one paint colour for another, and so on. here I have depicted my hypothesis about the arrangement of colors. the link is available for this picture in eps format. I hope you can use it to depict your version https://mega.nz/file/Ut1FEISI#-Mis_09-t233mYJkOduBtnhZa-0Zm1E1ZiImWlTINZY 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foeth Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 There's a bit of colour footage of that pattern 6 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 1 minute ago, foeth said: There's a bit of colour footage of that pattern I *KNEW* it. Thank you for proving I'm not completely mad! 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tincan_Warspite Posted May 12, 2022 Share Posted May 12, 2022 So is the color white or a very pale light grey? I just picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 kit and i would like to depict Lizzie in her 1941 scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted May 12, 2022 Author Share Posted May 12, 2022 3 hours ago, Tincan_Warspite said: So is the color white or a very pale light grey? I just picked up the Trumpeter 1/700 kit and i would like to depict Lizzie in her 1941 scheme. Judging by this photo, not even very pale: (note the white waterline mark) probably 507C or even MS4 a more detailed answer will probably give you @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Me Posted December 9, 2022 Share Posted December 9, 2022 (edited) Hello, Did you make some progress on definining the good tones of paints ? Edited December 9, 2022 by Mister Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 On 10/12/2022 at 03:21, Mister Me said: Hello, Did you make some progress on definining the good tones of paints ? Hello based on the results of this discussion, I have drawn another colouring option. please take it as a hypothesis, not as a sample) No educated guess as to what colours have been used, as you can see no one has suggested. I can't tell the difference between 507C and MS4 from black and white or poor quality colour photos either Try bothering @dickrd and @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies about it , maybe they can tell you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foeth Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 I've not studied this pattern that much (did notice the pattern/colour of patches may change over time), but what photographs I have do not show much of a difference between the patches you now have as blue and dark grey? (Much closer to your 2021 image?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, foeth said: I've not studied this pattern that much (did notice the pattern/colour of patches may change over time), but what photographs I have do not show much of a difference between the patches you now have as blue and dark grey? (Much closer to your 2021 image?) I thought I noticed this difference in your colour picture: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foeth Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 THE BRITISH BATTLESHIP HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH; 35,00O TON BATTLESHIP.. © IWM (A 16385) IWM Non Commercial License THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 9257) IWM Non Commercial License THE ROYAL NAVY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. © IWM (A 9258) IWM Non Commercial License Some pics at the IWM; portside main dark patch appears quite uniform? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted December 12, 2022 Author Share Posted December 12, 2022 1 minute ago, foeth said: THE BRITISH BATTLESHIP HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH; 35,00O TON BATTLESHIP.. © IWM (A 16385) Yes, I've certainly seen those photos. And that's how I based the first version. The coloured picture, on the other hand, made me wonder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallBlondJohn Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 AS a former graphics guy, just like to say what lovely drawings and intriguing discussion. IMO the base colour is light grey 507C, we've seen several cases on BM recently of it looking almost white, especially in strong sunlight. The colour film looks over-exposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 (edited) 507C can indeed photograph deceptively light. If that film has preserved at least some semblance of hue information, then MS3, B5 and 507A are probably not bad guesses at the other 3 colours. But they're still guesses. It's difficult with so few photos, though I'm tempted to try a contrast analysis myself. The pattern needs to be adjusted though, especially on the port side where to me it looks like the darkest colour runs all the way to amidships i.e. most of the blue section in the above drawing shouldn't be blue. Edited December 12, 2022 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallBlondJohn Posted December 12, 2022 Share Posted December 12, 2022 2 hours ago, Vlad said: most of the blue section in the above drawing shouldn't be blue. I agree, in fact I suspect there may be just one dark colour that noticeably fades as it moves aft. Maybe the hull been partially repainted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted December 13, 2022 Author Share Posted December 13, 2022 8 hours ago, Vlad said: I'm tempted to try a contrast analysis myself https://mega.nz/file/Ut1FEISI#-Mis_09-t233mYJkOduBtnhZa-0Zm1E1ZiImWlTINZY this link is valid it contains my source code for the 1st version in vector format 8 hours ago, Vlad said: then MS3, B5 and 507A are probably not bad guesses at the other 3 colours. and why do you think the dark colour is 507A and not MS1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 On 12/12/2022 at 7:41 AM, thekz said: I thought I noticed this difference in your colour picture: Personally I would be extremely wary of trying to draw many definite conclusions re colour from that. The signal flags, for example; the upper one appears to be grey on grey (& there ain't no such flag)… conceivably white on black, but RN warships seldom fly the flag of Kernow… and the lower one could maybe be Romeo (yellow cross on red), but even that’s a total guess. Given that, gauging shades of blue grey feels on rather thin ice. To me, anyway 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 12 hours ago, thekz said: and why do you think the dark colour is 507A and not MS1? It's possible, I was just considering one set of options. However, MS1 is very dark and just at a glance the pictures do not have the contrast I would expect. Of course, the other possibility is that the darkest colour is MS1 and the second colour is AP507A, then all the other colours adjust to darker. But again this is a just a semi-educated guess, I haven't had time to measure the contrast ratios on the pictures. And even if I do, there are limitations and the process is not fully deterministic. Within margins for error, photo quality etc. you can get 2 or 3 sets of colour combinations that will produce the expected contrast progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallBlondJohn Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 13 hours ago, Ex-FAAWAFU said: Personally I would be extremely wary of trying to draw many definite conclusions re colour from that. The signal flags, for example; the upper one appears to be grey on grey (& there ain't no such flag)… conceivably white on black, but RN warships seldom fly the flag of Kernow… and the lower one could maybe be Romeo (yellow cross on red), but even that’s a total guess. Given that, gauging shades of blue grey feels on rather thin ice. To me, anyway Good point. The top flag looks like a white cross on a blue triangle to me - 'P' Affirmative? (whatever that may mean). If those are the flags, then the film is making blues slightly darker and washing out red. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted December 13, 2022 Share Posted December 13, 2022 29 minutes ago, TallBlondJohn said: Good point. The top flag looks like a white cross on a blue triangle to me - 'P' Affirmative? (whatever that may mean). I thought that we all knew what the "Blue Peter" meant? Unless that is a different flag altogether, it means "getting ready to sail" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thekz Posted December 14, 2022 Author Share Posted December 14, 2022 12 hours ago, Vlad said: It's possible, I was just considering one set of options. However, MS1 is very dark and just at a glance the pictures do not have the contrast I would expect. Of course, the other possibility is that the darkest colour is MS1 and the second colour is AP507A, then all the other colours adjust to darker. But again this is a just a semi-educated guess, I haven't had time to measure the contrast ratios on the pictures. And even if I do, there are limitations and the process is not fully deterministic. Within margins for error, photo quality etc. you can get 2 or 3 sets of colour combinations that will produce the expected contrast progression. It will be interesting to see the result. Although, IMHO, errors are likely to be high. I used to work with bw films long time ago, and in my experience I faced with inconsistency of tone transfer and contrast, depending on film type and development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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