Struggling to Identify Handley Page O/7s in South Africa, 1920

[mhaselden]

One of my relatives flew Handley Page O/7s in South Africa as part of Handley Page South Africa Transports Ltd in 1920.  Unfortunately, he only identified the aircraft type in his logbook (actually, mis-identified as HP O/400) with no serial numbers.

 

Internet googling has revealed that O/7 G-EANV crashed on 23 Feb 1920, which precedes my relative's first flight in the type in South Africa.  I also found this pic, allegedly of G-IAAA, replete with Commando Brandy advertising markings:

 

(Source: https://www.key.aero/forum/historic-aviation/147305-handley-page-o-7?p=3431392)

 

On a side-note to the above, there's something odd happening under the tail of this airframe as the close-up below shows (source as per above):

 

 

 

Apparently, G-IAAA was seen in Calcutta in March 1920 which, again, precedes the first flight by my relative which took place in South Africa on 27 March 1920.  

 

So...do any of the Britmodeller experts out there have any other ideas of which airframe(s) my relative may have flown?  His flights took place on: 27 and 29 March; 3, 14 and 20 April; 8 and 15 May (4 flights on the latter date, all local around Cape Town), and; 5 June (2 flights on this date).  

 

Since the HP commercial venture in South Africa folded in September 1920, info about this enterprise is extremely limited.

 

Any and all pointers/ideas would be hugely appreciated, as well as any additional pics of these rare birds. 

 

Thanks in advance,

Mark

 

 

[Graham Boak]

The only other O/7 flown in South Africa was HP8, sent there en route to Calcutta.  It arrived in Cape Town with HP7 G-EANV, named Pioneer.  After the crash of 'NV HP8 was assembled and flown briefly to display the Commando advert before being repackaged and sent to Calcutta, where it became G-IAAA.  This photo shows HP8 on the fin and rudder so the identity is surely sound.

 

Info from Putnam''s Handley Page Aircraft, by C.H.Barnes.

[mhaselden]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The only other O/7 flown in South Africa was HP8, sent there en route to Calcutta.  It arrived in Cape Town with HP7 G-EANV, named Pioneer.  After the crash of 'NV HP8 was assembled and flown briefly to display the Commando advert before being repackaged and sent to Calcutta, where it became G-IAAA.  This photo shows HP8 on the fin and rudder so the identity is surely sound.

 

Info from Putnam''s Handley Page Aircraft, by C.H.Barnes.

 

Happy with all that...but then which aircraft was my relative flying on the dates mentioned in the OP?  It can't be G-EANV because that was damaged beyond repair in February 1920, and it can't be G-IAAA if that airframe was in Calcutta in March 1920. 

 

It seems the only options are:

1.   My relative's logbook is incorrect (which seems odd given the number of flights he recorded and the details included in the records).
2.   The move of G-IAAA to India took place later than March 1920, as reported, which would be odd since it was apparently sighted in Calcutta.
3.   There was at least one other HP O/7 in South Africa in the period March-June 1920.

 

Of the above, #3 seems the most likely...but I can find no record of an additional airframe, hence my original question.

[bzn20]

Good luck with your search , this kind of stuff is really important for his descendants and anyone interested in early airlines/ aviation .

[Graham Boak]

I'd go with option 2.  As HP8 was only assembled after the crash of 'NV, and then flew for some time in South Africa before being repackaged and sent on, having it around in India in March seems unlikely.  Yes that is the date on the photo in Barnes.

 

Given that there were only 12 O/7s, and their whereabouts is known, another HP in South Africa at this time would have to have been an O/400, as recorded by your relative.  There weren't exactly a lot of other civilianised O/400s, and Barnes has histories for all of them.  Although a little brief in some cases, there's no suggestion of another going to South Africa.  Which I strongly suspect you already knew.

[mhaselden]

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I'd go with option 2.  As HP8 was only assembled after the crash of 'NV, and then flew for some time in South Africa before being repackaged and sent on, having it around in India in March seems unlikely.  Yes that is the date on the photo in Barnes.

 

Given that there were only 12 O/7s, and their whereabouts is known, another HP in South Africa at this time would have to have been an O/400, as recorded by your relative.  There weren't exactly a lot of other civilianised O/400s, and Barnes has histories for all of them.  Although a little brief in some cases, there's no suggestion of another going to South Africa.  Which I strongly suspect you already knew.

 

Thanks for the insights, Graham.  Sounds like I need to get hold of the Barnes book.  If G-IAAA remained in South Africa, then it must have done so for several months...it's hard to build an air transport business if you don't have any aircraft.  

[Graham Boak]

The remaining problem there is that it is described as following 'AB to Calcutta after a few weeks, which I think could stretch to a few months but not over six of them!

[Lazy8]

I can provide a little more information, and some speculation.  Not a complete picture, and while I think it points to there being significant gaps in the current "received wisdom", I'd have to admit other opinions may be equally valid!

 

The timeline I have is this:

2 September 1919
Major Henry Meintjes is appointed as South Africa representative of Handley Page, according to Handley Page's Board minutes.

26 November 1919
Captain S. Wood, the South African representative of Handley Page, is in Cape Town to establish an aerial passenger and mail service.  Wood is mentioned as HP's rep in both the Aeroplane and Flight, but not in company documents, nor does he feature again.  He may have officially been Meintjes' deputy, as Meintjes was at this point still in England, flying commercially for Handley Page Transport (for whom he is relentlessly referred to by the British press as "Menzies").

28 December 1919
First O/400 has arrived in Cape Town.  Major Henry Meintjes, HP's Manager in South Africa, is on his way to supervise its unpacking and assembly at the airfield at Wynberg.  The aircraft has 16 "luxurious" seats, of which two are in the nose (meaning there's 14 in the cabin - the seats in the nose were most likely just a bench, not at all "luxurious").

(6 February 1920
Formation of Handley Page Indo-Burmese Transport, with the intention of bidding for mail contracts in the sub-continent.  By June, it has become clear that the Indian government will refuse to grant contracts to airlines run by aircraft manufacturers, and so Handley Page's interests are sold to locals.  The major local shareholder in HPIBT was the Thakur Saheb of Morvi, who was so taken with flying generally that he had already appropriated one of the company's aircraft for himself.)

8 February 1920
Flight records that during the past few days some Handley Page aeroplanes (note the plural) arrived in South Africa.  These don't have to have been O/400 family - at the time HP were actively selling the Norman Thompson flying boat all round the world, while at home they were in the middle of the negotiations which created the Aircraft Disposal Company - but if they aren't O/400s there appear to be no obvious other candidates mentioned later.

11 February 1920
An O/7 belonging to Handley Page South African Transport suffers an unspecified accident.

14 February 1920
Copy date of a report to The Aeroplane, commenting on HPSAT's excellent opening.

19 February 1920
HP O/7 HP.7 G-EANV Pioneer is wrecked in a force landing at Acacia Siding, near Beaufort West, Capr Province, South Africa.  Maj Henry Meintjes MC AFC, Capt Christoffer Johannes Venter DFC, Askew (engineer) & 7 passengers unhurt.  The force landing was necessitated because of the fatigue failure of one of the rudder posts - a design flaw in the O/400 which was only just making itself known, but would eventually result in the type being grounded.  (Although the implications were not appreciated, tail flutter was a known issue, occasionally severe enough, on landing, to result in the tail hitting the ground rather harder than intended, breaking the skid - it may be that's what is being investigated in the photo.)  Meintjes was roundly congratulated for his airmanship in bringing the damaged aircraft to the ground with no injury to the occupants.  Shortly before this accident, Meintjes and G-EANV had been present at the opening of HPSAT's "own" airfield at Wynberg.

(25 February 1920
O/400 HP.27 G-EAMC is wrecked in Sudan while attempting to fly to Cape Town.)

(5 March 1920
An aircraft of Handley Page Indo-Burmese Transport flies Calcutta-Bombay.  This is almost certainly an O/400, and an aircraft which had been giving demonstration flights around Calcutta for some time.  It is generally assumed to have been G-IAAB, but may have been C9700, which as nominally an RAF aircraft had flown all the way out there.)

May 1920
O/7 HP.11 G-EAPA arrives in Calcutta, specially fitted for the Thukur Saheb of Morvi - aluminium dope all over, blue nacelles and pink silk interior, as G-IAAC.  The aircraft was destroyed in a gale October/November 1920, and a replacement ordered to a similar specification from HP.  This was HP.34 G-EASX, with not only pink interior but pink overall apart from the blue nacelles - the Indian registration G-IAAC was reissued for this aircraft.  HP.34 left Cricklewood towards the end of November 1920, and was test flown in India in early 1921 - again it probably went via the Cape, although if a bright pink aircraft had been erected and flown out there in December 1920 I'm sure there would have been a record!

June 1920
O/7s HP.10 G-EAQZ and HP.12 G-EAPB are shipped from England to India.  I have no sight of their route, but it is quite likely they went via South Africa as the previous aircraft did.

11 August 1920
A piece in the Aeroplane, without precise dates, notes that HPSAT were unlucky in their first attempt to reach Johannesburg "earlier this year", but have done much good work around the Cape and elsewhere, including flying a rugby team from Cape Town to a match, which they won, and then back again.

4 October 1920
Meintjes relinquishes his position as HP's manager in South Africa.  It would seem that this marks the end of HPSAT.

 

So, assuming one takes contemporary press reports at face value, it would appear possible that there was at least one other O/400-type aircraft in South Africa at the time.  This would be an aircraft without an HP fleet number, which many have interpreted as meaning it was not built, or at least not completed, but may just mean that they were sufficiently confident not to have test-flown it in the UK prior to shipping.  Handley Page had great plans for airline services, military flight training, and all sorts of aviation business the world over.  For a variety of reasons most of these projects came to nothing, and those that did see the light of day didn't last.  It would thus appear possible (but by no means certain) that somewhere between 1 or 2 up to as many as 40-odd O/400-type aircraft were completed for civil use in foreign countries but not actually used.  Their potential shipping out to Brazil, South Africa, India and perhaps elsewhere would have coincided with the problems with the aircraft's tail unit design becoming apparent, and the aircraft once arrived would not have been worth shipping home.  I suggest that might be why, if they did exist, they faded so readily from history.  (This is the fate that befell G-EAAF when it reached America, supposedly to start an American Handley Page airline, but thwarted by the US Congress forbidding the import of foreign aircraft while it was in transit.)  There were also more than a dozen O/7s - not only the converted, rebuilt O/400 F5414, which became O/7 G-EAAF, but several other conversions of completed O/400s to O/7-standard as O/10 and O/11 which would have appeared more-or-less identical to a pilot.

The aircraft allocated to Handley Page Indo-Burmese Transport were initially given registrations G-IAAA, IAAB and IAAC, and at least IAAC was reallocated to a second O/400-type.  All three registrations were, not long after, reallocated yet again to aircraft belonging to different owners.  The waters are muddy, to say the least, and I think it is not-inconceivable that an aircraft registered G-IAAA was flying in India at the same time as HP.8 was flying in South Africa.  Difficult to prove, though.

Part of the answer may lie in shipping manifests, some of which might be in the National Archives, but I'm not aware of anything that might tell us which ship to look for, nor precise dates...

 

Good luck!

Edited July 10, 2021 by Lazy8
correcting typos

[mhaselden]

Many thanks, Lazy8, for that very detailed update.  It certainly provided a lot more detail than I'd previously been able to find.  

 

While idly perusing Handley Page serials in airhistory.org, I came across the following on the 'G-Ixxx' page (http://www.airhistory.org.uk/gy/reg_G-I.html ):

 

"Two HP O/7 (c/n HP-10 G-EAQZ and HP-12 G-EAPB) were sent to India in June 1920 for HPIBT. There is no record of their registration in India."  

 

I wonder if they may have been routed via South Africa.  Given that my relative's last 2 flights were on 5 June, that would leave plenty of time for one or both aircraft to make it to India before the end of the month.  Again, this is just idle speculation on my part.  

[mhaselden]

Looking at the records for EAQZ and EAPB, the latter was built from components and sold to India in June 1920.  It seems like a distinct candidate for an extra airframe used in South Africa.

 

One other note from my relative's logbook.  On 8 May 1920 he flew a load carrying test which listed 15 passengers onboard (presumably the standard 14 per the spec for the 0/7 plus one on a dickey seat somewhere?).  However, that detail means we can rule out the 0/10 and 0/11 designs as there's no way they could carry that number of people.

[Graham Boak]

HP10 received its CoA 18.2.20, shipped to Calcutta, scrapped 7.21.  If it was shipped to India in June this would be too late for any appearance earlier than that in South Africa,

HP12 received its CoA 23.4.20 and was shipped to India 1.21.

I see no reason why these aircraft, nor the HP34, would have been sent via Cape Town, other than as a stop for the ship en-route.  Certainly no reason for them to have been assembled there.   Barnes doesn't have a shipping date for HP34 but if flying in India 4.21 t seems most likely to have travelled at much the same time as HP10 and HP12, and quite likely on the same ship.

 

HP7 and 8 are both described as being shipped to Cape Town 11.19.  HP8 was not registered.  This is very odd, and makes me suspect that it was always intended for South Africa and perhaps was awaiting the establishment of a South African register, or at least recognition of a requested allocation?  I suspect that it was only sent on to India after the problems with the South African enterprise.  This does make the allocation of G-IAAA in advance of the shipping of 'AB and 'AC, but still casts doubt on the dating of the photo in Barnes.  But for this date there is no reason to doubt that the aircraft flying in South Africa in Spring 1940 was HP8.

 

HP certain had lots of available airframes, but no buyers, so no work would have been done on them.  Those worked on and shipped out are so recorded, the existence of a ghost fleet seems most unlikely.  The tail problem as sorted out fairly quickly, as such things were.

 

Ooops: sorry, I've been looking at WW2 shipping routes and this has biased me.  Anything shipping to India from the UK after WW1 will have gone through the Suez Canal and hence nowhere near South Africa.  Which does further suggest that sending HP8 to India was an afterthought not planned in advance.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I've dug out Chaz Bowyer's Handley Page Bombers of the First World War.  Basically he tells the conventional story of HP7 and 8 having been shipped to South Africa on the Durham Castle, with HP8 "eventually" intended for India as G-IAAA, and only retained to fulfil the original contract.  However, he does add a fascinating discovery.  I don't really want to add to "conspiracy theories" but...

 

The fate of G-EANV Pioneer remains unconfirmed, although a letter dated 7 September 1921, from the Customs Commissioner to the Secretary for Defence referred to "... a rummage sale to be held at Cape Town on 14th instant at which it is proposed to sell five cases which are believed to contain two (sic) complete Handley Page aeroplanes."  Whether this sale had any connection with G-EANV is still a moot point.

 

The (sic) is in italics which I presume to be added by Bowyer.  Your opinion may differ.  My opinion is that two complete aircraft would be likely to require an even number of cases.

 

He does include four photos from South Africa said to be of G-EANV.  One is identifiable by the small letter HP-7 on the tail cone,  Two of the photos show the crashed aircraft (19th February) with a white upper wing (I suspect a large white panel as on other examples) on which the registration G-EAN... is visible.  There is another picture showing G-EANV taking off, in "proper" markings, perhaps in its former life.

 

In his summary of the civil converts, he omits HP7 but describes HP8 as G-IAAA, ex-G-EANV.  To South Africa.  Methinks a slip of the pen.

[Lazy8]

I had forgotten how much of Bowyer's book is devoted to the civil O/400s.  Thanks for reminding me of it, Graham.

I'd tend to agree with you about an even number of aircraft probably occupying an even number of crates - certainly ex-factory, I think that's a very reasonable assumption.  But maybe not.  If they'd been repacked "in the field", then you might expect to see like components crated together, I suppose.  If the two aircraft were headed for the same place, perhaps the logic of having the fewest crates was inescapable.  I imagine the amount of space they occupied would be the major factor in shipping charges, but perhaps number of crates was a factor too?

As an aside, when Imperial Airways sold the HP W.9 to a goldmine in New Guinea, that was shipped out in four crates: fuselage in a big one; outer wings in a second slightly smaller; not sure of the distribution of parts between the other two, which were smaller again and identical.

 

[bzn20]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Chaz Bowyer

Dad joined up with Chaz Bowyer at RAF Halton 1943 ,3 year apprenticeship ,he was a "Plumber" AKA Weapons Fitter , Dad was Airframes . Got a few of his books some signed by him .  Not this HP Bombers of WW 1 though . is there anything on the HP V/1500 ? War finished before it was used in anger ,  built and then Scrapped . My Grandad was the Flt Sgt i/c the scrapping of about 10 at Henlow (I think ) . 

 

Chaz Bowyer RIP

Edited July 10, 2021 by bzn20

[Graham Boak]

Yes, there's a good chapter on the V/1500 with several pages of large photos.  Could perhaps have been a little clearer printed but I suspect this would have required glossier paper and put the price up.

[bzn20]

Thanks Graham . 

[mhaselden]

Going back to G-EANV, it seems there's some doubt as to whether it was written off in the February 1920 crash, despite that being the officially-recorded fate.  I've ordered Bowyer's book so I can take a look at the photos of the crash.  However, is it feasible that 'NV was repaired and made airworthy again?  The HP 0/7 was one of the largest, most complex aircraft in the world at the time and I wonder whether the repair facilities/resources were available in South Africa to effect such a restoration?  

[alancmlaird]

On 7/9/2021 at 10:00 PM, Lazy8 said:

Meintjes was at this point still in England, flying commercially for Handley Page Transport (for whom he is relentlessly referred to by the British press as "Menzies").

28 December 1919

While not being able to add anything historical to this truly fascinating thread, I hope I'm not staing something everone else already knows - that the name 'Menzies' is of Scottish origin and should correctly be pronounced 'Ming-is' (hence the abrv. name of Scottish Liberal politician Ming (Menzies) Campbell. This would make more sense of the S. African spelling of 'Meintjes' being simply an Africaans phonetic rendering.

Hopefully this might help anyone attempting to track Henry Menzies/Meintjes' history regarding Handley page involvement, and let the British press off the hook for spelling failures!