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p-47D "Teddy" Camouflage Inquiry


Juan R-S

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Hello all,

 

I am looking at the P-47D flown by Maj Jackson named "Teddy".

Some accounts say that this P-47 was camouflaged with british colors dark green, dark gray and medium gray for undersides.

Other accounts say this aircraft was finished with U.S. olive drab, neutral gray and clear metal for undersides.

It is quite a spread for colors! I also understand that Maj Jackson may have flown different P-47D named "Teddy".

However I would appreciate if someone would offer some clarification on this scheme.

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The Osprey book, "56th Fighter Group" has a profile of P-47D-28 with Donald Duck on the nose, code LM✪J, s/n 44-19780. There is also a photo of said aircraft but no markings can be made out. The caption says, "....outside No 2 hangar at Boxted on 11 October1944. Jackson had four air and four ground victories at the time this shot was taken....". The appendices for the profile says, "....Teddy entered service with a Dark Green and Light Sea Grey disruptive pattern on the upper surfaces, which was the commonest form of 'in-the-field' camouflage applied to 62nd FS aircraft. The undersurfaces remained in natural metal finish...." Superscale Decals 48-937 has a P-47M-1RE "Teddy" also listed as LM✪J, s/n 44-21117. This one with camo listed as Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey over NMF. No Donald Duck on this one. How accurate the camo colours are, I have no idea

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By the time the D-28 was seeing action all P-47D's were delivered in natural metal if I remember correctly. Olive drab and Neutral gray  were no longer required for delivery. So that means we are talking about a field applied scheme or depot applied at best. "Teddy" appears to have natural metal canopy frame which, to me , would preclude it being delivered in O.D./neutral gray. Now you are getting into which paints were available in  theater. That does not in any way look close to O.D./Neutral gray/natural metal. I can see the natural metal for the undersides, although how much was left unpainted is hard to tell.

 

If it were my model I would probably pick from some British colors to get as close as I could.

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14 hours ago, fubar57 said:

. The appendices for the profile says, "....Teddy entered service with a Dark Green and Light Sea Grey disruptive pattern on the upper surfaces, which was the commonest form of 'in-the-field' camouflage applied to 62nd FS aircraft. The undersurfaces remained in natural metal finish...." 

 

I've been looking through the various writings of Roger Freeman concerning 56 FG Thunderbolts.  The discussion is clouded, at least in my mind, by the better documented and much more frequently discussed schemes applied later to the 56 FG's P-47Ms.  But this is a P-47D from earlier on.  The evidence that emerges is not conclusive but personally I would plump for Dark Green and Sea Grey with natural metal undersides.

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If you're talking 44-2117 'Teddy' flown by Major Jackson, it was a P-47M, not a P-47D. I think That P-47 was finished in RAF colors,dark green/medium sea grey/over natural metal. @Tbolt can probably be more helpful than I for the colors and markings. If this Jug is indeed your modeling project, see the linked period color photos. There are also good color photos in Zempke's Wolfpack: a Photographic Odyssey of the 56th Fighter Group During the Second World War. If you are modeling one of his other mounts, I can try to find photos and references, Have you looked at the Little Friends website?

Mike

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/18487

 

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/

 

 

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Not really got much to add, but yes if you are doing 44-2117 then that is a P-47M. Jackson had two P-47D-28's also named Teddy.

 

This is 44-19780. I can't find a picture of 44-19790 at the moment.

 

media-29769.jpeg

 

Like Nachtwulf says it's clear from the pictures that it's not NG as it's far too light and the green is darker than OD, but also the green to me looks darker than RAF Dark Green, so they may have darkened the green or used something else. Note these Jeff Ethell pictures seem to have a slightly cool tint to them. 

 

We will probably never know the exact colours used, just like with the 61st and 63rd FS P-47M's, but when I get around to doing this aircraft I'll probably use Medium Sea Grey and Dark Green darkened a little.

 

51291571984_6eed53e6fe_o.jpg

 

51290855216_9602bbf1fd_o.jpg

 

 

 

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Given the known wide variation of tones in b&w and colour photographs, due to lighting conditions, filters used, and reproduction variables, I don't see any need to darken Dark Green (or indeed whatever colour you did choose).  I do see considerable problems in the very idea that they'd bother to do any such thing.  Such fine-tuning would be creating considerable problems for themselves, not least in the time involved in such work.  They are not going to a modern paint emporium, choosing a precise shade, and having it poured out to precise specifications.  They are taking tins off the shelf, and hopefully stirring them adequately before use - but I wouldn't bet on even that..

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Given the known wide variation of tones in b&w and colour photographs, due to lighting conditions, filters used, and reproduction variables, I don't see any need to darken Dark Green (or indeed whatever colour you did choose).  I do see considerable problems in the very idea that they'd bother to do any such thing.  Such fine-tuning would be creating considerable problems for themselves, not least in the time involved in such work.  They are not going to a modern paint emporium, choosing a precise shade, and having it poured out to precise specifications.  They are taking tins off the shelf, and hopefully stirring them adequately before use - but I wouldn't bet on even that..

 

Maybe it was RAF Dark Green, maybe the colours were not RAF colours. It's obviously all speculation anyway with no documents to support any of it only the photos. Maybe it's not likely colours were mixed, but it's not what I would call a considerable problem.

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Sea grey?  No such colour in British stocks.  I suspect you mean Ocean Grey, in the RAF's Day Fighter Scheme.

or Medium Sea Grey. DG/MSG was also used in Mossie schemes...

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34 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

or Medium Sea Grey. DG/MSG was also used in Mossie schemes...

 

True and I was getting my RAF colours mixed up, I meant to say MSG as it does look quite light on Teddy. Though this photo is interesting as the grey looks darker ( like on Josephine http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_005542.jpg ) but look at the wing of the P-47 the picture is taken from, the colour is a lot lighter. Did they use different greys depending on what was available?

 

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_005580.jpg

 

 

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2 hours ago, Tbolt said:

 

True and I was getting my RAF colours mixed up, I meant to say MSG as it does look quite light on Teddy. Though this photo is interesting as the grey looks darker ( like on Josephine http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_005542.jpg ) but look at the wing of the P-47 the picture is taken from, the colour is a lot lighter. Did they use different greys depending on what was available?

 

http://147084544c678448852d-ddcc53207dce6036b290906311a424f9.r57.cf3.rackcdn.com/rfc/FRE_005580.jpg

 

 

I believe what you are referring to on the wing leading edge is actually natural metal. Also note worthy: The Tamiya P-47M might be a good place to start for a reference regarding the dark color .

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ww2incolor.com%2Fd%2F675005-2%2Fteddy&f=1&nofb=1

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50 minutes ago, Nachtwulf said:

I believe what you are referring to on the wing leading edge is actually natural metal. Also note worthy: The Tamiya P-47M might be a good place to start for a reference regarding the dark color .

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ww2incolor.com%2Fd%2F675005-2%2Fteddy&f=1&nofb=1

 

No I'm talking about the wing of the aircraft the photo was taken from, on the left edge of the photo, not Marion.

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On 7/4/2021 at 8:10 PM, 72modeler said:

If you're talking 44-2117 'Teddy' flown by Major Jackson, it was a P-47M, not a P-47D. I think That P-47 was finished in RAF colors,dark green/medium sea grey/over natural metal. @Tbolt can probably be more helpful than I for the colors and markings. If this Jug is indeed your modeling project, see the linked period color photos. There are also good color photos in Zempke's Wolfpack: a Photographic Odyssey of the 56th Fighter Group During the Second World War. If you are modeling one of his other mounts, I can try to find photos and references, Have you looked at the Little Friends website?

Mike

 

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/aircraft/18487

 

http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/

 

 

No I have not. I will check there. The P-47 I am curious about is the one with the duck painted on the fuselage. The other schemes are just as good to pursue.

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