New Tool Vulcan B2 - "rivet counted" build X2 - second build now active

[Adam Poultney]

@Seamus, good news! I have found a very useful photograph of XM594 in freefall bomber configuration c.1973. Some Vulcans kept their Type D roundels well into the 70s

Photograph

I immediately noticed that you'll need to use the later UHF aerials, which were painted yellow, and by this point TFR was installed. Less obvious is the ECM tailcone tip, in the kit scheme you'd need to just leave it as is, with the slightly less bulbous, more rounded part which housed Orange Putter. In the 1973 scheme, you'll need to use the alternate part provided for Red Steer Mk.2 which had a longer and more bulbous housing.

They really didn't make this easy with so many strange names in the same format... Blue Steel, Red Steer, Orange Putter, Yellow Sun, Blue Danube, Red Shrimp, Violet Club, etc...

[general melchett]

Quote

 A quick question if I may, I'm planning to finish it in the early camo, but it would be a waste to hide all that lovely bomb bay detail with the Blue Steel; is it possible to finish XM594 with the conventional bomb bay? I see from pics of the jet as it is now at Newark that it was converted back to the conventional role at some point, but the fact it is wearing a later camouflage scheme makes me question when that might have happened. Any pointers gratefully received 

Yes, just a quick potted history of XM594....following the decision to withdraw Blue Steel (much to the delight of air and ground crews) XM594 returned to Bitteswell for the necessary mods to return the aircraft to the free-fall bombing role on the 13th April 1970 after which she returned to squadron service in July of that year. Following this she returned to the manufacturer for further modifications before joining the Waddington Wing in March 1972.

 

The change to Low Visibility (blue/red) markings occurred circa 1973 and the change to LAG and a 'matt' finish started a short while later. A few aircraft were seen sporting an interim finish with a combination of black radome, non RWR fin cap, Low Visibility markings LAG undersides and a white 'bib' on the underside of the nose but these were quickly upgraded to the standard finish as they passed through servicing and maintenance.

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by general melchett

[Adam Poultney]

13 minutes ago, general melchett said:

 

The change to Low Visibility (blue/red) markings occurred circa 1973 and the change to LAG and a 'matt' finish started a short while later. A few aircraft were seen sporting an interim finish with a combination of black radome, non RWR fin cap, Low Visibility markings LAG undersides and a white 'bib' on the underside of the nose but these were quickly upgraded to the standard finish as they passed through servicing and maintenance.

 

It's a bit of a pain trying to figure out exactly which airframes had the low viz with black radome scheme of either variation... I'm slowly compiling a list of each one which has it in photographs, but need to start again after i realised there's two variations (fulln white underside or LAG underside). It's also one of the few schemes entirely missing from my collection (also missing are the ones from 617 sqn with type d roundels and no black radome, the unique camo worn by XM607 with a desert camo underside, XH558's version of wrap around and the experimental DSG scheme applied to XM600 and XM597)

[Jack Ruskin]

1 hour ago, Seamus said:

Yeah, not ideal.... Still, like I said I'm in no rush, will make sure all the other parts are present and correct before I request a replacement though!

 

my cockpit innards are spare if that helps ?

1 hour ago, Seamus said:

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Jack Ruskin

[general melchett]

It is a bit of a nightmare. 

 

Quote

 It's also one of the few schemes entirely missing from my collection (also missing are the ones from 617 sqn with type d roundels and no black radome, the unique camo worn by XM607 with a desert camo underside, XH558's version of wrap around and the experimental DSG scheme applied to XM600 and XM597)

 

OK here they are. All scans from various sources.

 

Taken at Cottesmore in 1975, four 617 aircraft on QRA, the nearest aircraft being XL317. This scheme didn't last for long before the LAG/Low Visibility markings came into being. By 1975 a lot of Vulcans already sported the new style.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 XM607 at Nellis in the one off Red Flag scheme 

 

 

 

 

 

And XM600 and '597 in experimental DSG/DG 

 

 

XM600 (seen with replacement rudder borrowed from standard MSG/DG aircraft)

 

 

 

And XM597 with 9 squadron.

 

 

I'll definitely be finishing at least one of mine as XM597 in the DSG/DG finish....be rude not to.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by general melchett

[WV908]

@general melchett I can't tell from the photos, but did XM597 in that scheme have two upper wing roundels or just one? 

 

As a erm, side note. My kit arrived today. It's nice. Too nice. So nice in fact that since Jadlam are doing a discount on buying in multiples I've just bought two more..... 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

 

 

[Adam Poultney]

2 minutes ago, WV908 said:

I can't tell from the photos, but did XM597 in that scheme have two upper wing roundels or just one? 

Should only have the one, don't ever recall seeing any camouflaged Vulcan with Type D roundels with two, it would be very unusual and worth modelling if it did have two

[avro683]

I intend for mine to have 2. Balance and all that. Artistic license too.

[WV908]

Just now, Adam Poultney said:

Should only have the one, don't ever recall seeing any camouflaged Vulcan with Type D roundels with two, it would be very unusual and worth modelling if it did have two

 

That's my thinking haha - you mentioned earlier about swapping decals. Would you be happy to give up the correctly proportioned 1/72 Fundekals roundels? 

 

I'd be more than happy to trade anything I have duplicated for them

 

Cheers,

  WV908

[general melchett]

Quote

I can't tell from the photos, but did XM597 in that scheme have two upper wing roundels or just one? 

 

 

Only one, port wing, usual style for polyurethane/high gloss protective sealant painted B Mk.2s of the period. The change to two wing roundels was only introduced when the markings changed to the Low Visibility scheme.

[Adam Poultney]

Just now, WV908 said:

 

That's my thinking haha - you mentioned earlier about swapping decals. Would you be happy to give up the correctly proportioned 1/72 Fundekals roundels? 

 

I'd be more than happy to trade anything I have duplicated for them

 

Cheers,

  WV908

Absolutely yeah, pm me.

3 minutes ago, general melchett said:

The change to two wing roundels was only introduced when the markings changed to the Low Visibility scheme.

The NEAF Vulcans at Akrotiri had only one upper low viz roundel, they just painted over the old ones. A few MRRs I think had only one low viz later on as well

[Adam Poultney]

So back to the build for a second, I think I'm going to proceed with only the first kit for now. I just thought, where on earth am I going to put two 1/72 Vulcans in the the desk space that I have. It's just not going to fit, so I'll have to go one at a time. The second one is starting to lag behind a little anyway, I haven't even started painting the seats on that one and the cockpit of the first is already sealed up.

 

Anyway, the lower part of the cockpit needed some filler, another job for some sprue goo made from plastic card and a nearly empty bottle of Tamiya Extra Thin. Masking tape around the seams to add to not make too much of a mess.

Right, just wait for that to dry and then sand it all back down.

 

 

@WV908 asked earlier for a comparison of the Fündekal colours to the kit ones, bear in mind that Fündekal didn't put a white backing under the anti flash decals.

 

 

 

[WV908]

Thanks Adam,

  Message on the way 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

 

[Paulaero]

I think this great account highlights the old adage of check your references and model to a photo.

 

Given the length of service of the Vulcan and the numerous changes to each airframe I think about any permutation is possible.

 

For example I think XH558 must have appeared in about half a dozen different guises throughout its service.

 

Thanks for the WIP Adam, now I will just crack on and build mine.

 

Paul 

[Adam Poultney]

2 minutes ago, Paulaero said:

I think this great account highlights the old adage of check your references and model to a photo.

I always look for photographic evidence for my models, especially my Vulcans. For Vulcans, no photo means no model.

3 minutes ago, Paulaero said:

Given the length of service of the Vulcan and the numerous changes to each airframe I think about any permutation is possible.

Well there's certainly a few combinations that didn't exist such as narrow intake, 301 engines and twin ECM plate, but there are enough different combinations to narrow down just about any photo to a handful of airframes, although the late XM59- and XM6-- batches can be a pain because they're quite standardised in two groups (XM597-XM612 and XM645-XM657) at which point it's down to markings and other context to figure it out.

8 minutes ago, Paulaero said:

For example I think XH558 must have appeared in about half a dozen different guises throughout its service.

An unusually high variety of schemes and configurations for XH558, more than any other Vulcan. As the first B2 in service, she was the last Vulcan painted with the B1 style white scheme where the roundels and serials were full shade, pretty standard freefall bomber until the 1970s when she became a B2MRR, then in the 1980s was one of 6 K2s (and one of two to be converted from B2MRRs), then of course off to the VDF and was made to look like a B2 again but it certainly doesn't pass as one under the levels of scrutiny in this thread 😂

[Dave Swindell]

Mine arrived this afternoon and I'm pretty impressed with a first look. One aileron mass balance short shot but that's an easy fix. 

One point I've not seen commented on is that the Blue Steel sprue is the sprue from the Victor kit.

As Adam has titled the thread a rivet counted thread I've got some rivet (or bolt) related queries.

 

1 - the two rows of rivets or bolt heads on the top of each wing above the front Skybolt bulges. 

From an engineering point they appear to be related to local reinforcing for the pylon mounting - are these Skybolt related, or (i suspect more likely) are they associated with the Black Buck shrike mounts or Martel trials?

Having been perusing Vulcan references I've not noticed these in photos, but then detail photo's of the wing upper surface aren't that common. Are they present on all vulcans with the Skybolt bulges?

 

2 - there is a similar row of rivet or bolt heads on the upper surface of the wing between the jet pipes - these would appear to be aligned with the vertical splitter plate that runs above the ECM mounting plate on the underside between the engine, again from the engineering point of view are these related to mounting these plates? Or in other words, should they only be there when there is an ECM plate below?

 

3 - The fin is moulded smooth on both sides except for panel lines, however detail photo's of the fin in the Linewrights Vulcan monograph show two widely spaced rows of 6? substantial bolt heads running approx in line with the rudder hinge line at 1/3 and 2/3 chord. They're on at least 2 airframes (XH561 & XM597) on the stbd side and XL462 port side. These appear to be in service circa 1983/84. In the Vulcan Warpaint they're visible on the port side of XH558  on p30 and the stbd side of a 617 sqn fin on p37. Anyone care to speculate on what they are and which Vulcans had them?

 

Hope you don't mind me throwing this in here Adam  - you're making good progress with yours, hopefully there will be answers to these questions before you get to the painting stage....

[Adam Poultney]

Crude attempt at a central wiper in the neutral position. 

 

 

[Seamus]

2 hours ago, general melchett said:

Yes, just a quick potted history of XM594....following the decision to withdraw Blue Steel (much to the delight of air and ground crews) XM594 returned to Bitteswell for the necessary mods to return the aircraft to the free-fall bombing role on the 13th April 1970 after which she returned to squadron service in July of that year. Following this she returned to the manufacturer for further modifications before joining the Waddington Wing in March 1972.

 

The change to Low Visibility (blue/red) markings occurred circa 1973 and the change to LAG and a 'matt' finish started a short while later. A few aircraft were seen sporting an interim finish with a combination of black radome, non RWR fin cap, Low Visibility markings LAG undersides and a white 'bib' on the underside of the nose but these were quickly upgraded to the standard finish as they passed through servicing and maintenance.

 

 

3 hours ago, Adam Poultney said:

@Seamus, good news! I have found a very useful photograph of XM594 in freefall bomber configuration c.1973. Some Vulcans kept their Type D roundels well into the 70s

Photograph

I immediately noticed that you'll need to use the later UHF aerials, which were painted yellow, and by this point TFR was installed. Less obvious is the ECM tailcone tip, in the kit scheme you'd need to just leave it as is, with the slightly less bulbous, more rounded part which housed Orange Putter. In the 1973 scheme, you'll need to use the alternate part provided for Red Steer Mk.2 which had a longer and more bulbous housing.

They really didn't make this easy with so many strange names in the same format... Blue Steel, Red Steer, Orange Putter, Yellow Sun, Blue Danube, Red Shrimp, Violet Club, etc...

 

Gents, thank you very much for your expert input 👏 From that I reckon I could get away with building '594 circa late 1970 with conventional bomb bay and no mods, which keeps things nice and simple, just the way I like it!

 

 

2 hours ago, Jack Ruskin said:

 

my cockpit innards are spare if that helps ?

 

 

Oh yes please! PM inbound

 

[Adam Poultney]

5 hours ago, Seamus said:

Gents, thank you very much for your expert input 👏 From that I reckon I could get away with building '594 circa late 1970 with conventional bomb bay and no mods, which keeps things nice and simple, just the way I like it!

Can't wait to see it! 

 

Ok so change of plans for my white one, definitely going with a 9 Sqn aircraft, can't beat that big green bat. All thanks to a decal trade with @WV908 

The options for airframes will be XM603, which is preserved at Woodford, or XM605 which is preserved in California, USA. XM605 is the favourite as it didn't have an IFR probe in that scheme, but I've modelled that one before, albeit in a much later wrap around camouflage scheme, and XM603 is one that I haven't done before. It seems like a bit of a waste to do one I've already modelled when I have a goal of doing every Vulcan eventually (someone please do a B1 kit and save me a lot of work!), but I really like the no IFR probe look. 

 

I've not decided if the first or second build will be the white 9 Sqn one yet, I can hold off on that decision for a little while yet but I'm favouring doing a camouflaged one first.

 

I've modelled a 9 Sqn Vulcan before, XM601 in 1/144 built from a GWH kit. It's not as accurate as this build will hopefully be but I like it. Sadly XM601 crashed with the loss of the full crew not even a year after entering service. Photographs are very hard to come by of this one due to its short service life. If you put XM601 into Google Images, there's only three images of the real XM601 before it starts showing models.

 

 

 

And the model of XM605 I mentioned

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Adam Poultney

[general melchett]

Quote

1 - the two rows of rivets or bolt heads on the top of each wing above the front Skybolt bulges. 

From an engineering point they appear to be related to local reinforcing for the pylon mounting - are these Skybolt related, or (i suspect more likely) are they associated with the Black Buck shrike mounts or Martel trials?

 

Dave, they seem to be related to local reinforcement but the real things are far less prominent than portrayed on the kit. I sanded mine way back, almost smooth, the same goes for the rear ones.  They definitely appear on XH558 and XM603 and were picked up on XM594, looking at Airfix's original data LIDAR scans of that aircraft (sadly the upper wings are in a poor state so it's hard to make them out). If so then they wouldn't be related to Skybolt or Black Buck/Martel as 558 wasn't modified to that spec. Regarding the rear ones, as you point out it's a bit of a coincidence that they correspond to the positions of the ECM plate centreline supports when fitted but, so far I haven't been able to find out their exact purpose. XM594 had two ECM plates fitted which may account for the two rows. Interestingly this video of XM603's restoration picks them up nicely.

 

   

 

Video, (relevant part from 01.50). 

 

 

 

 

  

Quote

The fin is moulded smooth on both sides except for panel lines, however detail photo's of the fin in the Linewrights Vulcan monograph show two widely spaced rows of 6? substantial bolt heads running approx in line with the rudder hinge line at 1/3 and 2/3 chord. They're on at least 2 airframes (XH561 & XM597) on the stbd side and XL462 port side. These appear to be in service circa 1983/84. In the Vulcan Warpaint they're visible on the port side of XH558  on p30 and the stbd side of a 617 sqn fin on p37. Anyone care to speculate on what they are and which Vulcans had them?

 

These were omitted for some reason and are quite prominent on the aircraft (same goes for the two rows of narrow slots). Below is one of the images I took of XM594 during research for the kit. Newark Air Museum were fantastic, giving access to the whole aircraft.

 

 

 

Adam, with the use of NAMs 'giraffe' I was able to take a few photos of the windshield (mainly to verify the position of the 'gutter' that runs around it's base), unfortunately the central wiper is missing but you can clearly see the parked position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by general melchett

[WV908]

@Adam Poultney You're more than welcome, and thankyou for the roundels in return!

 

I just need your address to post them to haha

 

I think I've decided on my builds - XM594 in 44sqn camo, XM603 in Anti Flash White (no sqn) and then a wraparound Vulcan. 9sqn's XL444 is a front runner right now, buuut XL426 is equally a front runner.

 

I want to avoid the typical XH558 or Black buck build, but I would like to build 607 in desert wraparound or XH560 sans refuelling probe as dumped at Marham. 

 

Is there anything I should watch out for with my choices? 

Cheers,

  WV908

[Adam Poultney]

7 minutes ago, WV908 said:

@Adam Poultney You're more than welcome, and thankyou for the roundels in return!

 

I just need your address to post them to haha

 

 

Should be in one of the messages I sent. I edited it when I realised I forgot to include it.

8 minutes ago, WV908 said:

@Adam Poultney

 

I think I've decided on my builds - XM594 in 44sqn camo, XM603 in Anti Flash White (no sqn) and then a wraparound Vulcan. 9sqn's XL444 is a front runner right now, buuut XL426 is equally a front runner.

 

I want to avoid the typical XH558 or Black buck build, but I would like to build 607 in desert wraparound or XH560 sans refuelling probe as dumped at Marham. 

 

Is there anything I should watch out for with my choices? 

 

Cheers,

  WV908

 

603 as it is preserved now or 603 as it left the factory because those are two fairly different configurations on a rivet counting level.

 

XL444 will be a pain simply because "Trouble 4" always was. Her demise at the hands of the scrapman was met with cheers, must be about the only time that's happened. 

As far as the configuration goes it should be a fairly straight forward ex blue steel airframe, no Skybolt blisters, two ECM plates, Olympus 200 series engines. I don't recall the full service history of 444 but I know she was in 617 Sqn for a while and on 9 Sqn while in wrap around.

 

607 pre black buck was as simple as it gets. It's from one of the two most standardised batches of Vulcans. 1 ECM plate, 301s, X Band jammer, etc.

 

XH560 is a little more complex as a B2MRR turned K2. You'll need to add the blisters covering the mounting points for the air sampling pods (XH serial MRRs only) which it retained as a K2 until it was scrapped. The white antenna on the nose that were equipped to MRRs and XL361 were removed when it was converted to a K2. TFR was removed, not never present so you'll need the circular plate covering its position.

And it was a K2 so there's that to deal with. You'll need the refueling unit and you'll need to remove the air scoop on the side of the tailcone (its position was obvious as metal plates were put in place covering where it should be, often a different shade to the rest of the tailcone).

 

Obviously for all of these you'll need to find the correct aerials and things for a given time period.

 

[WV908]

Thanks Adam, got it now

 

XM603 will be as preserved (although I won't be plating over the control surfaces)

 

Thankyou for your help with the others - Trouble four or the Trembling ***** as she was well known is of much interest to me, as after a career of being a hated hangar queen she took part in that last public Vulcan scramble at Finningley in 81. I also love the dark on dark wraparound camo. 

 

There used to be a great photoset of that last scramble online but I can't find it anymore. 

 

The only thing stopping me doing 560 is that she has the same camo (topside) as XM594 

 

Cheers,

 WV908

Edited July 5, 2021 by WV908
Wrong username. Tired. Zzzzz

[Rabbit Leader]

How goods this thread coming along? 

Now as someone who has had an initial pressing of this kit since Xmas 1984(!!) it would be a shame not to actually build this prior to spoiling myself with a new tooled kit. Has anyone had a chance to trial fit the new kit’s engine FOD covers onto the old kit? From all reports, that would save me a bit of work! 

Cheers and please keep this great Vulcan information coming along.. Dave 

[Adam Poultney]

4 hours ago, general melchett said:

These were omitted for some reason and are quite prominent on the aircraft (same goes for the two rows of narrow slots). Below is one of the images I took of XM594 during research for the kit. Newark Air Museum were fantastic, giving access to the whole aircraft.

 

Ah I hadn't noticed that they were missing... That's just one more detail on the list of things to add.

4 hours ago, general melchett said:

Adam, with the use of NAMs 'giraffe' I was able to take a few photos of the windshield (mainly to verify the position of the 'gutter' that runs around it's base), unfortunately the central wiper is missing but you can clearly see the parked position.

 

 

I mostly used reference images from XH558 (I know, terrible idea to use anything on 558 for reference for an in service Vulcan) and XM603 as there are readily accessible photos of both, 558 also having a working set is helpful.

 

46 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

Has anyone had a chance to trail fit the new kit’s engine FOD covers onto the old kit? From all reports, that would save me a bit of work! 

I'll give it a go at some point but I don't expect the fit to be great