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Switzerland selects F-35


Slater

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Can anybody explain such a decission based on the will to defend swiss airspace?

The F-35 against Eurofighter? F-35 as an air superiority aircraft?

Sorry, I understand nothing.

This is to my opinion already far away from aviation.

Obscure!

Like a Vickers Wellington as air superiority aircraft in the Battle of Britain!

Happy modelling

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It's not over yet. The government proposes it to the parlament. It may be that the decision will be turned over, as many people fear that the connections to the EU can become a bit... complicated, and selecting a US aircraft may not help to fix these problems. The fact that the price per flying hour should be much cheaper than the competition has yet to be proven. The referendum may come as well, but I think it will be approved. It's not just a matter of a majority of the people, but also of the cantons ("Ständemehr"). As we have many small rural cantons, it will most probably pass.

 

Still not sure yet what they were thinking when they chose the F-35. If they were thinking at all.

 

Alex

 

 

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Is the aircraft type suitable for this task?

This is the question!

Analogy the F-104 was suddenly suitable as a bomber too!

Pressure by uncle Sam makes everything possible!

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We bought 34 Hornets. So the F-35 is supposed to replace the Hornet and F-5. The Gripen-Procurement a few years ago was being advertised as "partial Tiger replacement". Many people didn't unterstand (me too, by the way) why we wanted to buy new planes to replace the Tiger, and a few years later, a new evaluation to replace the Hornets. In my opinion, the option to wait a few years and order one type to replace to old ones would have been easier.

 

After watching how we struggle with putting the new drone into operation, I really wonder how well this will go. It's just a few levels more complicated. And the running gag is that we order an aircraft which draws most benefits from "the network". We have no AWACS, no ships, no satellites, no airborne ISTAR, nothing which could be integrated, just a few ground based radars. But hey, it's network-centric! 😁 I was 15 years officer in the swiss air force, and I still have no clue what they are thinking.

 

 

 

Alex

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I'm no expert, and most likely missing the point somewhere, but whilst I assume that the F-35 is at least a competent air defence aircraft, I was very much under the impression that it is primarily a strike aircraft. And I thought that the last thing Switzerland would be interested in is striking anybody. I'm even hard pressed to think of a scenario where Switzerland needs air defence given its geographical and political position. So, could this mean that the F-35A is actually the cheapest fighter pane on the market now? Is this the end for sales of Eurofighter, Grippen, Rafale, Super Hornet?

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Apparently, rumors are circulating that the offer of the "cheap flight hours" was beacuse LM just mixed the cost per flight hour with the cost of the simulator hour. The others did not, and are quite upset about it.

 

Alex

 

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But how in hell you may go into a dogfight with a F-35?

Hell!

Is the F-35 this agile to make turns in the valleys? To prevent a crash at the next mountain face.

Any F-16 with drop tanks turns this 35 out!

Next time it will be the B2! Or anything more stupid.

I supose that cash under the table or some repressions are on.

Not at all logic!

Happy modelling

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3 hours ago, dov said:

But how in hell you may go into a dogfight with a F-35?

Hell!

Is the F-35 this agile to make turns in the valleys? To prevent a crash at the next mountain face.

Any F-16 with drop tanks turns this 35 out!

Next time it will be the B2! Or anything more stupid.

I supose that cash under the table or some repressions are on.

Not at all logic!

Happy modelling

So you know something of the F35A flight envelope? 

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1 hour ago, junglierating said:

So you know something of the F35A flight envelope? 

As far as I know far below all fighters in use worldwide.

As far as I know in all dog-fights outturned.

It is a strike aircraft, not a fighter for defence.

Have you more information?

Happy modelling

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3 hours ago, dov said:

As far as I know far below all fighters in use worldwide.

As far as I know in all dog-fights outturned.

It is a strike aircraft, not a fighter for defence.

Have you more information?

Happy modelling

Clearly not as much as you do Dov 😀 ....as for dog fighting is there much need for it in the Swiss alps.....i would say its a intercept capable a/c they require with excellent C3/C4 which I believe F35 has in spades and some.

Still I dont work for Boeing and I havent heard the crabs moaning.Still I havent worked on fixed wing for a while 😃

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From a Swiss government website. Evidently the F-35 had a clear technological edge over the other competitors. "Information superiority" seems to have been a key evaluation metric:

 

• In terms of effectiveness, the F-35A achieved the best result because it has a marked technological advantage over the other candidates: it includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace. The F-35A is able to ensure information superiority; this means pilots benefit from a higher situational awareness in all task areas when compared with the other candidates. This is especially true for day-to-day air policing.

What is more, the F-35A is the only aircraft that has been designed from the ground up to be especially difficult for other weapons systems to detect. The resulting high survivability is a great advantage for the Swiss Air Force.

In addition, because the F-35A is comparatively easy to operate and is able to provide information superiority, it requires less training and has a better ratio of flight to simulator hours. Because of this, the F-35A requires about 20% fewer flight hours than other candidates, and about 50% fewer take-offs and landings than the Air Force’s current jet aircraft, which the F-35A will be replacing.

 

https://www.vbs.admin.ch/content/vbs-internet/en/home.detail.nsb.html/84275.html

Edited by Slater
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16 hours ago, dov said:

As far as I know far below all fighters in use worldwide.

As far as I know in all dog-fights outturned.

It is a strike aircraft, not a fighter for defence.

Have you more information?

When you make it to the 21st century, give me a call 👍

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1 hour ago, Beermonster1958 said:

Well, its an official statement and, I wouldn't expect it to say anything else.

What it does do though, is make me immediately suspicious that the opposite is likely to be the reality!

I spent 40 years as a Civil Servant, I guess its made me a bit cynical regarding "official" statements!

😉😂

 

John

That's alright Beermonster....I spent 23 years being cynical about civil servants (some)...and it hasn't changed much being part of the war industry 🤣🤣🤣although apparently the feeling can sometimes be mutual 😂😂😂😀

Edited by junglierating
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On 7/1/2021 at 9:28 PM, Slater said:

In terms of effectiveness, the F-35A achieved the best result because it has a marked technological advantage over the other candidates: it includes entirely new, extremely powerful and comprehensively networked systems for protecting and monitoring airspace.

 

Yes, but as I wrote - where are the systems we want to integrate with the F-35? We have none...

 

On 7/1/2021 at 9:28 PM, Slater said:

The resulting high survivability is a great advantage for the Swiss Air Force.

 

As we need an aircraft for (mostly) air defence, the stealth is a non-issue. If any serious enemy wants to attack us anyway, our radar stations are well known, as well as our few airports (which have taxyways over public roads... talk about security!).

If you want to wage a serious war, the F-35 is a good tool, but not for the needs we have. It's clear why Israel have chosen the F-35. I try to keep politics out, though it's the forth dimension of an aircraft. But first selling PC-21 to France (maybe telling them to expect some offset business?), then refusing to sign a cooperation contract with the EU, and finally buying an American product will not help us get along well with our neighbours.

 

Alex

 

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If this potential purchase fails to pass the referendum. then the point is somewhat moot anyway.

 

A squadron or two of old F-16 Block 30's would probably meet Swiss requirements. And to back them up, the Patriots are capable of shredding any air-breathing threat (hostile or friendly, unfortunately) and are reasonably capable against TBM's.

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On 7/1/2021 at 11:14 AM, dov said:

As far as I know far below all fighters in use worldwide.

As far as I know in all dog-fights outturned.

It is a strike aircraft, not a fighter for defence.

Have you more information?

Happy modelling

"you know"?   How do "you know"?  Show me some real data not just "it's gotta be true because I read it on the internet".  

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29 minutes ago, 11bravo said:

"you know"?   How do "you know"?  Show me some real data not just "it's gotta be true because I read it on the internet".  

Well, that's a perfectly correct statement you made here. If only I had based my statement on a message on the Internet.

No, that is not so.

With several decades of expertise after studying the relevant subjects at the university, working in practical aviation is one of them.

On the other hand, I had the opportunity to follow the discussions that were going on in Israel on this topic.

The rest is common sense.

Everything that is spread on the Internet should be treated with caution.

If this aircraft were such a great thing, this American fighter would not have been designed as a strike aircraft and would be sold very differently.

Have you seen this machine at an air show?

In a mock dogfight?

Certainly not.

The F-22, on the other hand, cuts a completely different figure.

Although it is eternally unreliable and remains. Prone on oxygen supply!

 

Happy modelling

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