Allergic to acrylic paints. Please help!

[Major Flannel]

* not medical allergies. Spiritual allergies...

 

Hello there.

I have been slapping enamels, oils and lacquers at models for decades and its the only way I know. Through choice.

Why?

Imagine this scenario: The project is say, a 72nd scale Bell chopper. The colour call out suggests, say, AK acrylic neon orange. I murmer "sure" and detox the finished build with rubbing alcohol or soapy warm water. So far, so excellent.

 

I apply said AK orange as asked over a white primer.  I allow the acrylic 24 hours to dry. I watch angrily as I scrape off the acrylic just with a fingernail or by accidental touch only. The acrylic paint has no bite whatsoever into the plastic.

 

I re-do the whole lot in enamels or lacquers. It bites. Happiness ensues.

Acrylic paints are popular so it must be my fault.

 

What am I doing so badly wrong?

 

Thank you!

Edited June 29, 2021 by Major Flannel

[Tbolt]

What is the primer? You can't put a water based acrylic straight on to plastic, as like you said it has no bite, but they should grip fine to a primer.

[ckw]

In my experience acrylics are significantly more fragile than enamels, even with a primer (I use Mr Surfacer). IMHO acrylics need a topcoat for protection as well as final finish.

 

This is one of the reasons that after some serious effort to switch to acrylic I've mostly gone back to enamel paints (though I still so use them for some things where fast drying is a plus and fragility is not an issue - eg. cockpit interiors).

 

Cheers

 

Colin

[Major Flannel]

38 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

What is the primer? You can't put a water based acrylic straight on to plastic, as like you said it has no bite, but they should grip fine to a primer.

Oh, rattle cans such as Halford's or similar. All fail to get acrylics to do their alleged job; to wit, cover a surface wuthout falling off. 

 

Best wishes.

[Major Flannel]

38 minutes ago, ckw said:

 

...This is one of the reasons that after some serious effort to switch to acrylic I've mostly gone back to enamel paints (though I still so use them for some things where fast drying is a plus and fragility is not an issue - eg. cockpit interiors).

Yes. I like lacquers a lot but no range of colour to speak of. Tamiya's are quite good.

Quote

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Major Flannel

[bmwh548]

2 minutes ago, Major Flannel said:

Yes. I like lacquers a lot but no range of colour to speak of. Tamiya's are quite good.

 

 

AK, Mr. Color, Tamiya, Hataka. They all have a lacquer based range, I'm sure there's other manufacturers too, these are the ones that came to me off the top of my head.

[thorfinn]

Can't speak as to AK acrylics, but I've been using Tamiya acrylics almost exclusively for 15 years or so, and have found them to be very durable.

Their major downside is perhaps their lack of military shades matching various 'official' prototype color ranges...but since I've never had a problem with mixing my own colors, that's never been an issue for moi.

Cheers

[Major Flannel]

10 minutes ago, bmwh548 said:

 

AK, Mr. Color, Tamiya, Hataka. They all have a lacquer based range, I'm sure there's other manufacturers too, these are the ones that came to me off the top of my head.

Yes, Hataka Orange series(?) can easily be acquired from modelhobby.pl. The future does seem to be with acrylics, but they don't paint well. Incredible why they're so popular.

[Tbolt]

22 minutes ago, Major Flannel said:

Oh, rattle cans such as Halford's or similar. All fail to get acrylics to do their alleged job; to wit, cover a surface wuthout falling off. 

 

Best wishes.

 

The only AK water based acrylics I've used are the Air Series and you seem to have to be pretty rough with them to get them to lift from the primer, but I've only experimented with them, my usual aqueous acrylic is Xtracrylix, which I've had no problems with, though I use enamels more than anything else.

[Tbolt]

7 minutes ago, Major Flannel said:

Yes, Hataka Orange series(?) can easily be acquired from modelhobby.pl. The future does seem to be with acrylics, but they don't paint well. Incredible why they're so popular.

 

I thought the future seems to be with acrylic lacquers if you look at the number of ranges that have appeared over the last few years.

[lasermonkey]

I also like my paints to be held on by more than 9.8m/s squared, which is why I despise* the vast majority of acrylics. I did like the old Pollyscale/Aeromaster paints and still happily use my stash of these, as they adhere pretty well and are constant and predictable in use. The Tamiya ones stick well too, but aren't what most people would call true acrylics, as they have solvents contained therein. And once you start using lacquer thinners with acrylics, you might as well use enamels or lacquers anyway, as the supposed "advantages" are kinda irrelevant at this point.

 

Nope. Give me enamels or lacquers any day. They just work.

 

*I really do! I cannot for the life of me fathom why people put up with the fragility and inconsistencies of acrylics. If you look at all the questions asking why a particular brand isn't behaving, you can bet your bottom dollar it'll be an acrylic. The work of Satan himself, if you ask me.

 

Not that I have any strong feelings on the subject!

Edited June 29, 2021 by lasermonkey

[Major Flannel]

Agreed. Some folk love their acrylic paints and I wish them well. I do not intend to malign either their favourite tools or them as creative modellers.

Part of it, I am sure, are certain companies selling a fad where a 'greasy sausage fat acrylic number 99' weathering technique and the rest of it outshine the original model's appeal. I won't buy into that. Rather, AK, Jellyvo and you others please try make your paints more durable and consistently useable. And the Good Lord help those with just a few paintbrushes available.

 

[lasermonkey]

3 minutes ago, Major Flannel said:

Agreed. Some folk love their acrylic paints and I wish them well. I do not intend to malign either their favourite tools or them as creative modellers.

Part of it, I am sure, are certain companies selling a fad where a 'greasy sausage fat acrylic number 99' weathering technique and the rest of it outshine the original model's appeal. I won't buy into that. Rather, AK, Jellyvo and you others please try make your paints more durable and consistently useable. And the Good Lord help those with just a few paintbrushes available.

 

Your highlighted bit is exactly what drove me away from acrylics. I loved the Aeromaster paints to use, even if some of their colours were wildly off. I could brush them just as well as spray them, which is pretty much unique in my experience. I believe it was Floquil that made these paints (and Polly Scale too) and it was such a shame that they were discontinued. They really were simple  and consistent to use, and I found them to be the most resilient of all the water-soluble acrylics I've tried.

 

I invested quite heavily in other acrylics after the Aeromasters finished. Of all of those, the earlier Lifecolor paints sprayed best (Not great for brush painting though) once you'd got the hang of it, but weren't anywhere near as hard wearing. I had a lot of masking disasters. I also never managed to get a decent mottle with them. Then they all dried out in the bottles. Over a hundred of them. I thought that Misterkit were pure rubbish (no colour density, fragile and would separate from the thinners when sprayed. Vallejo not much better, as it falls off if you so much as look at it.  So much wasted money.

 

My stress levels are so much better now I have gone back to enamels and lacquers. If someone would buy the formula for the Polly Scale/Aeromaster paints and do a good, accurate range of colours, I think they'd be quids in.

[Tbolt]

11 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

My stress levels are so much better now I have gone back to enamels and lacquers. If someone would buy the formula for the Polly Scale/Aeromaster paints and do a good, accurate range of colours, I think they'd be quids in.

 

Maybe that's what AK's gen 3's are 😉

[treker_ed]

The only two acrylic ranges I have any problems with over the last few years are Xtracrylic  and Vallejo. The rest - Tamiya, Humbrol & Revell have all worked fine (once I got used to being able to spray them and thin the correctly). Tamiya are by far the best of the bunch. I appreciate that Tamiya are not "true" acrylics being solvent based, but once sprayed and cured, they are very resilient. The worst of the lot is definitely Xtracrylic - I've had that peel up when removing masking tape so often, I only use it for any internal painting when absolutely no masking is needed. 

 

I should add, that on 90% of parts painted I also prime first. My usual go to primer at the moment is Ultimate Modelling Products primer (which is rebadged Stynylrez primer). I've also used Tamiya rattle can fine grey and white primers in the past, but find these easier to use (and cheaper in the long run).

Edited June 29, 2021 by treker_ed

[Major Flannel]

15 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

Maybe that's what AK's gen 3's are 😉

The very acrylic product that peels away from the SAAB 91 I made last month, like it was an artist's watercolour paint. AK 'fluorescent' orange, 3rd gen. Great colour, no staying power. With respect, pointless. Waste of money.

 

Hello Humbrol! (but I notice they're getting faddish too with weathering powders and such beguiling things). Hm.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Major Flannel

[Major Flannel]

3 minutes ago, treker_ed said:

The only two acrylic ranges I have any problems with over the last few years are Xtracrylic  and Vallejo. The rest - Tamiya, Humbrol & Revell have all worked fine (once I got used to being able to spray the and thin the correctly). Tamiya are by far the best of the bunch. I appreciate that Tamiya are not "true" acrylics being solvent based, but once sprayed and cured, they are very resilient. The worst of the lot is definitely Xtracrylic - I've had that peel up when removing masking tape so often, I only use it for any internal painting when absolutely no masking is needed.

OT You reminded me. Vajjelo so-called 'filler/putty'. It has no bite either and is very cheap to buy, no guessing as to why. First and last time with that specific company.

[Tbolt]

6 minutes ago, Major Flannel said:

The very acrylic product that peels away from the SAAB 91 I made last month, like it was a watercolour paint. AK 'fluorescent' orange, 3rd gen. Great colour, no staying power. With respect, pointless. Waste of money.

 

Hello Humbrol! (but I notice they're getting faddish too with weathering powders and such beguiling things). Hm.

 

 

 

Okay I didn't know that's what you used.

 

I stay away from Humbrol now, their quality got so inconsistent; large colour variation between the same colours, some tins far too thick, not enough drying agent in some tins and sometimes separating really quickly. Humbrol enamels are good when you get a tin which is made to the correct specs, but that seems to be rare, I'm won't waste any more money on them.

[lasermonkey]

18 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

Maybe that's what AK's gen 3's are 😉

Fo' rizzle?

[Tbolt]

2 minutes ago, lasermonkey said:

Fo' rizzle?

 

no, it was a joke.

[Major Flannel]

7 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

 

Okay I didn't know that's what you used.

 

I stay away from Humbrol now, there quality got so inconsistent; large colour variation between the same colours, some tins far too thick, not enough drying agent in some tins and sometimes separating really quickly. Humbrol enamels are good when you get a tin which is made to the correct specs, but that seems to rare, I'm won't waste any more money on them.

I respect your choice of tools. I really don't want this thread causing division: this world we inhabit has that in spades already.

Let's change tack a little -- how would one best utilise a, say, a Tamiya acrylic paint on a, say, single 72nd scale Avro Vulcan wing, with a good sized chisel brush, assuming one Halford's Grey primed it aforehand? 

It needs to adhere reasonably well and can accept further acrylics over the top of it. 

 

Best wishes.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Major Flannel

[lasermonkey]

I've heard people say they managed to brush paint Tamiya acrylics by adding a touch of dishwashing liquid to the water used to thin the paint with. It might be worth using a retarder too, as it starts to dry really quickly. I might do some experiments tonight using the various potions to hand.

[Tbolt]

21 minutes ago, Major Flannel said:

I respect your choice of tools. I really don't want this thread causing division: this world we inhabit has that in spades already.

Let's change tack a little -- how would one best utilise a, say, a Tamiya acrylic paint on a, say, single 72nd scale Avro Vulcan wing, with a good sized chisel brush, assuming one Halford's Grey primed it aforehand? 

It needs to adhere reasonably well and can accept further acrylics over the top of it. 

 

Best wishes.

 

Not really division, just pointing out that Humbrol let the company that produce their enamels take the p**s with the production of them, sad really as like I said a properly produced tin is really nice to work with and it's all I use to use.

 

I can't help you with hand brushing Tamiya acrylics, I've only ever airbrushed it.

[bmwh548]

Tamiya definitely needs help if you're going to brush it. Grab their own retarder and thinner and experiment, but keep in mind drying time will be at least 24 hours. From personal experience I much rather go with Revell Aqua if it needs to be brushed on (being water based they dry slower than Tamiya and self level better). Another issue with Tamiya is that being solvent based you're going to reactivate the first coat when going in with a second one, that doesn't happen with Aqua. Just my 2 cents.

[lasermonkey]

OK, I just popped out to the workshop to do some initial experiments. I first tried brushing some Tamiya Medium Sea Grey onto an old paint mule thinned with some Ultimate Products  Airbrush Thinner. The paint was thoroughly stirred first and I then thinned the paint to approximately the consistency of semi-skimmed milk. The paint flowed on nicely and evenly to begin with, but quickly started to dry, both on the model and in the palette. This caused brush marks, but I did expect this to happen. I then added a drop or two of Liquitex Slo Dry retarder and this cured the problem of the paint drying too quickly. I was able to go over previously covered areas without the paint dragging. So far, so good.

 

I then decided to try this on the various parts of an Airfix MiG-17 I'm working on that aren't being used. I wanted to see how it works on unprimed plastic. Once the first coat has dried, I'll go over it again. I will also see if I can find some larger model parts that I can do masking tests on, as that seems to be a pretty good test of how well it sticks.