Trumpeter 1/200 Bismarck

[ArnoldAmbrose]

2 hours ago, Gisbod said:

I’m now struggling to complete my 1/700 Bissie. A fate that often happens once I’ve got a new project in my head. It’s a failing of mine 

Gidday Guy, I can understand that. It's why I rarely start a new model (group builds excepted) until a current model is completed. I can think about it, do some planning and research, but not start any building.

     Maybe make a list of what has still to be done on your current Bismarck, then set a target date or time for each task. For example - "Tonight after tea it's the bonnet covers" (if the ship had them), and don't go to bed or think of the new project until they're done. Just an idea. HTH. Your model is too good to let it stagnate now. Regards, Jeff.

[Gisbod]

Thanks for the encouragement Jeff, yep, I know I ought to, but I think I’ll leave it a couple of days. I’m terrible for that… Also I see a couple of areas that I could have done better and I just want to chuck it in the bin. I rarely like a model once it’s done. It’s a psychological disorder!

 

 

Guy

Edited July 2, 2021 by Gisbod

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday again, NONE of my models are perfect, all of them have something I could have done better, but I enjoy them all the same.

 

DON'T ditch yours, you've done a terrific job of the model. Regards, Jeff.

[Gisbod]

For future reference if anyone refers to this for their build. A beautifully rendered set of 3D images here:

 

 

http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/3d-models/dkm-bismarck/bismarck-high-res/
 

 

So, obviously, I’m spending a lot of time musing over Bismarck at the moment. Colour wise, I presume it’s well documented, but the upper superstructures in a light grey in photographs seem, to my eye, much lighter than the specified colour? 
 

Hellgrau 50
 

 

 

 

Jamie @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  does this lovely set:

 

 

 

 

Is that just my eye, the photos or a scale thing? I generally think colours look a little better ‘scaled’ (lightened), but that’s just a personal preference.

How many sets of these would I need to cover this behometh?!

 

 

Guy

 

[Gisbod]

Ps

 

Jamie, What’s your take on turret top colours?

 

Dark grey/ Yellow/ Red?!
 

Guy

[S-boat 55]

I believe the turret top colour will depend on when exactly you want to model her as they changed comparatively quickly over little more than a few weeks and at times days, one thing that often gets missed is the dark barrells for her main armament.

 

As for coverage Jamie has an application guide for his paints on the  sovereignhobbies.co.uk site which would be worth a look,

 

I recently bought a set for Bismarck from him, I can upload a photo of them on a model when I get to it if that would help? I tried taking a photo of the tin lids but the camera just exaggerated the colours to the point of uselessness, 

Edited July 3, 2021 by S-boat 55

[Gisbod]

Ah thanks S-boat 55 (that’s a bit of a mouthful.. is that what the wife calls you too?) 

 

That would be helpful. I went for an MRP (mr.Paint) light grey on the 1/700 build, but even that looks too dark to me.

 

Guy

[S-boat 55]

Lol, I think I'd get banned from the site if I wrote down  what she calls me......

 

Paint wise it's always so hard to know given only black and white photos survive, thats where enthusiasts like Jamie deserve so much credit for giving people the chance to benefit from their research, I'll try and do a bit of Graf Spee over the weekend and upload a picture, 

 

Sam

[Gisbod]

Ah Sam, that’s a lot easier! 
 

That would be great… Thanks.

 

As regards turret tops.. exhaustively discussed here:

 

 

https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=232

 

 

Guy

[Gisbod]

A few more musings on Bismarck colours…

 

It seems undisputed that the secondary armament 15cm guns had a dark grey top as per the main turrets, but they don’t seem to have in these wreck photos? Maybe the dark grey has washed off?

 

Some artist images of the final scheme show the remnants of the white Hull stripes on the black waterline, but again, clearly none shown here.

In the top photo, the Hull looks a very similar colour to the superstructures? Just the photo? Maybe the additional painting over the initial coat of paint wasn’t as durable and has dissipated over time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guy

Edited July 3, 2021 by Gisbod

[Steve D]

On 03/07/2021 at 07:53, Gisbod said:

A beautifully rendered set of 3D images here

Wow, such graphics, amazing amount of work there, impressive....

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Guy,

 

The upper image in your last post there isn't a photograph but artwork coloured in to someone's imagination. Sadly when it comes to all matters naval, people who like drawing pictures and colouring them in and people who know what they're talking about don't overlap much on the Venn Diagram

 

There are plenty contemporary images in B&W which do clearly show a difference in tones between hull and superstructure though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck-class_battleship#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_193-04-1-26,_Schlachtschiff_Bismarck.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's worth noting that Bismarck's paint is believed to have changed in several details between being spied exiting the Baltic with Prinz Eugen to making the final run for Brest whilst down by the bows with the 2000 tonnes of seawater in the bows and gushing fuel oil (see NH 69732 above). This would imply painting at sea and at best partially cured paint however given the weather conditions I wouldn't expect much if any of that paint to still be there as it's the worst possible conditions for paint to cure.

 

As to the shades, do keep in mind that my digital graphic is sharply relieved against a pure white background which isn't natural so any greys will look dark. It's well documented however that Hellgrau 50 for the upperworks was defacto RAL 7001, whilst Dunkelgrau 51 used on the hulls of all the large German ships at the time was RAL 7000. Hope this helps?

 

[Terry1954]

Joining this thread as it looks like it could get very interesting! You are a brave man Guy, taking on a giant like this, but having seen a good few examples of your work, I think this is going to be an excellent build to follow.

 

Good luck!

 

Terry

[Iceman 29]

To complete Jamie:

 

"Anatomy of the Ship The Battleship Bismarck, Jack Brower"

 

 

Here are the only two sources I know of that indicate that the day before the fatal day the turrets tops were painted yellow, which was the identification color for the Luftwaffe in the Atlantic sector.

At first, only the main turrets were painted. The testimony below indicates that the painting of the secondary turrets was abandoned because the work was destroyed by the sea:

 

Extracts from the Bismarck's logbook:

 

 

Still in the logbook the yellow paint on the roof of the turrets:

 

 

This last painting seems to be confirmed by an English source: it is a message sent by the Admiralty to the English fleet and recorded in the logbook of HMS Rodney. 
This information probably comes from the debriefing of the Swordfish pilots who had observed the Bismarck from a distance:

 

Another peculiarity, taken from the memoirs of the commander of the Prinz Eugen, published in the 1950s, is that the order was given before departure from Norway to remove the railings from the fore and aft decks in anticipation of sailing and fighting in rough seas. The railings were replaced by a white line painted at one meter from the edges as well as lifelines stretched in the axis of the deck. These pictures show that this was applied on the Prinz Eugen and (in my opinion) probably on the Bismarck (seen in the background) and this from the time of departure from Norway as evidenced by the sailors' light clothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gisbod]

Hi @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies,

 

Thanks for looking in, it’s nice to have input from a verified expert! Lovely pictures too. I wasn’t doubting the validity of your colours, just how they look so light in photographs. I knew the Hull was a darker grey. It’s just that first photo which perplexed me, but if it’s an artistic rendition, that explains it.

 

The light grey top to the 15cm secondary armament isn’t so easy to dismiss, other than it’s gradually eroded back to the base superstructure RAL 7001?

Your photo NH 69732 (2nd to last known photo of Bismarck) does seem to have distinctly lighter turret tops (well, the sloping sides anyway). May be a trick of the light or bright yellow?! The searchlight cover by the funnel also looks very light in colour?

 

I’m frankly astounded by how many times she was repainted in her short life. They obviously had a job lot of paint and idle hands…

 

 

@Iceman 29 Pascal, That’s fascinating! That would be a cool thing to model, I may well try and incorporate that. Amazing how much conjecture is involved in the Bismarck story. What super pictures again.

 

The admiralty report of the yellow turrets is fairly compelling. What do they mean specifically by ‘tops and gun shields’?

 

Did you have any issues with your Scaledeck? I read about poor fit in places? Did you seal yours pre or post fitting if at all?

 

I’m enjoying this kit already, and I haven’t even got it yet! 😬

 

 

Guy

 

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

24 minutes ago, Gisbod said:

Hi @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies,

 

Thanks for looking in, it’s nice to have input from a verified expert! Lovely pictures too. I wasn’t doubting the validity of your colours, just how they look so light in photographs. I knew the Hull was a darker grey. It’s just that first photo which perplexed me, but if it’s an artistic rendition, that explains it.

 

The light grey top to the 15cm secondary armament isn’t so easy to dismiss, other than it’s gradually eroded back to the base superstructure RAL 7001?

Your photo NH 69732 (2nd to last known photo of Bismarck) does seem to have distinctly lighter turret tops (well, the sloping sides anyway). May be a trick of the light or bright yellow?! The searchlight cover by the funnel also looks very light in colour?

 

I’m frankly astounded by how many times she was repainted in her short life. They obviously had a job lot of paint and idle hands…

 

 

@Iceman 29 Pascal, That’s fascinating! That would be a cool thing to model, I may well try and incorporate that. Amazing how much conjecture is involved in the Bismarck story. What super pictures again.

 

The admiralty report of the yellow turrets is fairly compelling. What do they mean specifically by ‘tops and gun shields’?

 

Did you have any issues with your Scaledeck? I read about poor fit in places? Did you seal yours pre or post fitting if at all?

 

I’m enjoying this kit already, and I haven’t even got it yet! 😬

 

 

Guy

 

 

 

 

 

I think the turret tops changed colour too as in the Baltic stripes photo you can clearly see dark on the tops of Anton through Dora turrets which isn't so obvious other times.

 

As for gun shields - being British observers it's probably an assumption. Strictly speaking a turret is a deep thing going down into the hull complete with ammunition hoists etc inside and the whole thing rotates. Guns in a unit attached to and swivelling around a hard point on the deck was strictly speaking a "mount" in British parlance and most smaller guns e.g. everything up to 4.7" was a mount rather than a turret. The metal surrounding them was a gun shield.

 

This is an example of a single mount with gun shield. The observers in the Catalina probably just used terminology the Admiralty would be familiar with, and taken the 15cm guns they could see to be mounts.

[Gisbod]

Ah that’s interesting Jamie, so if I was to go for the yellow option, then it would be the turret tops (flat only or sloping too?) and the 15cm mounts.

 

 

I’ve just watched the James Cameron dive on the Bismarck on YouTube - A really compelling watch, a stunning underwater exploration of the wreck. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’ve taken a few stills and I believe this to be the Baltic stripes showing through the Hull? A noticeable diagonal stripe of lighter colour, but if it is then what’s the purer white lower strip? Why would it be stepped?

 

 

 

 

 

Then a close up of the lower white strip:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And a view of the turret control area, just because it’s so clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s like playing detective…

 

 

 

 

Guy

 

 

 

[Iceman 29]

It is difficult to retrace all the history of the different modifications of the painting scheme, for my part I gave up, not enough certainties. I did it to please me, nothing historical.

 

 

For the Scaledecks wood deck, it's ok, not perfect but ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some pictures :

 

Paint schemes: http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck_class/bismarck/paint_schemes/aldorfer/aldorfer_letters.html

 

 

 

Probably colorized..

 

 

 

 

 

[Gisbod]

15 hours ago, Iceman 29 said:

It is difficult to retrace all the history of the different modifications of the painting scheme, for my part I gave up, not enough certainties. I did it to please me, nothing historical.

 

 

For the Scaledecks wood deck, it's ok, not perfect but ok.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Pascal, 

 

I couldn’t agree more re colours! 

 

Awesome Pics… did you seal the deck? If so what with? When you say ok but not perfect, you mean the fit? Did you have to trim it?

 

Thanks,

 

Guy

[Iceman 29]

I may have had to re-cut 2 or 3 places, but the rest is fine.

 

I glue with white wood glue, I glue the edges with cyanolite glue and activator.

[robgizlu]

Fascinating thread - read it all with interest.  It still astonishes me as to some of the evidence that you dig up from 80 yrs ago.

Whilst it primarily concerns U-boats, this is an interesting review of Kriegsmarine colours that I found useful

 

https://amp.rokket.biz/docs/the_wolf_pack_compr.pdf

 

Regards Model Monkey and your earlier query, I recall that a short while back he announced that he would no longer send items to UK.  I'm uncertain if this is ongoing.

 

Looking forwards to seeing some plastic soon 

Rob

[Gisbod]

That’s fascinating too Rob,

 

I’ve extracted some excerpts here:

 

 

In addition, the light grey Hellgrau 50 looks almost white in photos where direct sunlight is present, and reports from early in the war noted that the light grey superstructure shined almost white in bright weather conditions. These points have caused me to wonder if the Hellgrau 50 paint was actually quite a bit lighter than the RAL7001 colour assigned to it. It should be noted that others who have studied Kriegsmarine colours have, independently of myself, come to ponder this same question.

 

I believe that the Hellgrau 50 paint may have been as light as RAL7038 (FS36492) on occasions. It would surely have been somewhere close to RAL7001 (FS36375) on other vessels at other times since that was the RAL code cross-referenced to it. In the table on the previous pages, I have suggested RAL7038 as an “alternative Hellgrau 50” colour. I further suggest that the real Hellgrau 50 paint used upon numerous Kriegsmarine vessels could have ranged anywhere between, and including, this RAL7038 code and the more traditional RAL7001.

This variation in colour is much greater than I had expected. Falk Pletscher astutely notes upon the variation in the colour of the Hellgrau 50 paint that, “I am quite sure that the colour of the paint Hellgrau 50 was not exactly defined. Otherwise it would have been taken into the RAL register.

 

 

Guy

[Gisbod]

Ps…

 

To my eye it matches this one the best
 

FS 36495

 

MRP 364

 

Which isn’t mentioned in the article. I guess it’s subjective…

 

Guy

 

 

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Please permit me to repost the same three images here as before, albeit in a different order:

 

 

As you know I've been studying photos for a while now and they can be very misleading. The very light tone that you're looking for and seeing on the wreck is absolutely and completely undoubtedly the exact same paint photographed twice during and after the Battle of Denmark Strait. These two photographs both show a clear white bow wave but the superstructure in both images looks like a medium-tone grey and the hull very dark grey. If you had only these two photographs and nothing else, there is absolutely no way on this Earth you'd choose an extremely pale grey as seen under powerful lamps of a deep-sea submersible.

 

 

 

As if to drive home the point a little better, this photograph of Bismarck with the light source low of the port beam shows off the chameleon effect of paint perfectly in the one photograph, with the up-sun, cross-sun and down-sun facets of the angled forward superstructure looking drastically different tones. The visual effect of the two search light cover domes is perhaps even more pronounced.

 

 

 

 

The usual Your Model, Your Rules applies of course, but if you choose a grey too light because you're defacto setting aside some evidence in favour of other evidence you prefer the look of, then you also need to control the light under which you observe the model or it's going to look wrong most of the time. If the model is in a dimly lit room without good windows etc and you'll only view it under some artificial light that could be appropriate. If you have a big glass gable end living room and the Bismarck will have pride of place, it's going to look white on a bright day and it'll never look like the photographs at Denmark Strait. If you use the accepted colours, it'll look right for the sunlight under which you look at it whatever the weather.

 

[Richard E]

13 hours ago, robgizlu said:

Regards Model Monkey and your earlier query, I recall that a short while back he announced that he would no longer send items to UK.  I'm uncertain if this is ongoing.

 

They did stop shipping to the UK at the beginning of the uear but it looks like they have now reversed that decision