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Young now Old builder returns after a 35 odd year absence!


Lindsey C
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Hi Guys,

 

Hope you are all keeping well.

 

Well Damn Lidl! They recently had Mk1 Hurricane (A68216), Mk1a Spitfire (A68206) & BF109-E3 (A68205) Airfix kits for €7.99 each. I thought 'that will be a bit of cheap fun' for this once prolific model maker (returning after 35+ years away) and I can create a little BoB shelf in my little display cabinet. 😊

 

Now it has all got out of hand and is costing a small fortune! Of course I have to have all the aircraft to be fair so have had to buy Boulton Paul Defiant Mk1, Dornier 172-2, Ju87B-1, Ju88 A-1, Bf 110C/D (Eduard Kit which is impressive), all the paints, flat brushes, detail brushes etc. etc. Packages are even arriving from Poland since Airfix can seem to supply nothing to me here in Ireland and their website wasted 2 hours of my time! (Brexit Panic maybe?) Super-hobbys in Poland are seriously impressive and efficient having a huge range all in stock. Of course I still need to obtain a HE111 H2-3. I can't find one in day bombing colours from the earlier part of the Battle and may need to find and back build one if I can get the decals etc. (Any help here appreciated). It will be a long time until I get to the He111.

 

I have started with the Fabric Wing Hurricane to re-learn, hone new skills. A lot has changed since I have been away! Weathering, detailing etc. I want the BoB aircraft to look fairly worn/constantly used since these were desperate times and the only thing on ground crews minds was keeping aircraft in the air rather than touching up paint and aesthetics. The Hurricane is taking longer than I thought. I looked in the Spitfire kit and the pilot is a terrible looking individual. An escaped Orc from Lord of the Rings with hands and legs an Ogre would be proud of (see Avatar pic)! 🤣 I won't even go into depth about the horrendous flashing on the sprue's but has any got a 1:72 scale jig-saw I can borrow to cut out the landing gear on the Spitty? The Spitfire pilot cannot go into any model of mine so the Hurricane pilot is being saved for the Spitfire. This means the Hurricane has become an 'open cockpit' model meaning cutting back fuselage to let the Canopy be in the open position. It has also meant scratch building gun sight, Sutton Harness straps etc. I've also been detailing. Drilling out exhausts, gun ports, building clear starboard and port wing lights etc. That's why the build is taking longer. 🧐 I will get faster as I go on (I now know how to make RAF 1:72 Sutton Harness straps and have a few spares made! lol). I can put up progress in the appropriate forum if anyone is interested and no doubt you guys might have useful info & tips for me.

 

One thing I am struggling with is the horrible Humbrol Clear for the supposed glass like canopies! Despite pre-cleaning the Clear pulls away and leaves unsightly looking areas. It does nothing like the Humbrol Youtube video! I would like to see theirs when dry! I have de-greased with detergent, metholated spirits, lighter fluid. Tried 1 dip, 2 dips, brush coats. Makes no difference! Is there a better gloss out there that will achieve that 'glass like' finish'?

 

Thx in advance,

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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6 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

I want the BoB aircraft to look fairly worn/constantly used since these were desperate times and the only thing on ground crews minds was keeping aircraft in the air rather than touching up paint and aesthetics

This is a myth.   

Many planes just didn't last long enough to ever get very worn. *

And, while busy, maintenance was done at night, and planes just don't work well if grotty. They get cleaned, they get repaired, major damage requires a maintenance unit, and proper repairs.   And front line units get new planes as priority.   Very few BoB RAF fighter aircraft were more than a few months old either (the RAF lost over 400 Hurricanes in France, looking through production records and Air Britain serial books, most BoB Hurricane were made in spring and summer 1940, and a lot of Spitfires were as well, though as they had not been in France you do get a few more older ones)

There are exceptions, and the photographic record is patchy, but the summer of 1940 was dry, and overall,  RAF planes just were not tatty.

Have a look here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/albums/with/72157704898371932

albums of photos, mostly BoB, by squadron.  

 

Note, also, not many old fabric wing Hurricanes in the front line either.  There were 50 mid 1940 new build with fabric wings, details of which have only really been pinned down recently.

see 

 

You'd need some new bits to do one from an Airfix kit,  for a standard BoB Hurricane you need the Arma Hobby kit. 

 

There is a fair amount of tosh still floating about regarding Hurricanes....   not helped by the new Valiant WIngs Hurricane book either. Which is shoddy, and not to be trusted. (the info in the thread above is not in in it for example)

The best new book for BoB era aircraft are the Wingleader Photo Albums BTW.

The old, but mostly still excellent Ducimus camouflage monographs are all available here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings

 

Really worth a read, they were the first guides done after a load of information got declassfied.

Got a bit carried away..but as a returnee, there is an amazing amount of very detailed information now available online, though you do need to know what is cobblers and what not....

Unsurprisingly, a lot is on here, but the site search is not great,  but you can search here using google, just add in 'Britmodeller' to a search term.     

 

* the extreme example of this is X4110

https://imgur.com/gallery/GrRxX

which lasted 25 minutes....

 

13 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

Is there a better gloss out there that will achieve that 'glass like finish'?

Future/Kleer/, I think currently Pledge.   Self levelling acrylic floor varnish basically. good for decals too.

@Black Knight maybe able to advise what is available in Ireland, even though he's in the north, or maybe @noelh  

 

Anyway...welcome to the forums.   Great place,  worth doing a work in progress build,  as it puts your work in a common context. 

 

HTH

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Hobby 2000 do the early version of the Heinkel He111H-2/3 and it's currently available from Hannants.

 

For canopies I use either the original 'Klear' varnish or more recently Gauzy Agent Glass Coat / Clear Parts Dip which gives canopies a really nice clear appearance and also repairs minor scuffs. I also have Gauzy Agent Shine Enhancer as well which is a gloss varnish giving most surfaces a shinny finish and can also be applied to canopies as well. Both of the Gauzy products I found on E-Bay so should be available to you.

 

Regards

Colin.

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A wealth of great info Troy. Thanks very much. I want a high degree of accuracy on what will be on the BoB shelf.

 

I will digest all tomorrow. Bed is calling. I maybe weathering too much! At 56 yrs old I feel well weathered! The Hurricane I am building is L1592, the one that was shot by a 109 with a consequent forced landing at Croyden. The Hurricane now residing in the Science Museum, South Kensington. If nothing else, it will be be a good Guinea Pig for me to practice on. God knows the 4 spoke wheels bugged me so much I have resin 5 spoke ordered on special order! It is a very basic Airfix kit and I can build a better one later with Arma gear. The next one doesn't have to be Airfix, any accurate, BoB, 1:72 I will will build. Recommendations gratefully welcomed. 

 

Thanks,

 

Lindsey

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Sorry, just to add that I bought some Humbrol Clear varnish and it was truly awful so threw it in the bin. As for decal  solutions I've recently bought  the Daco strong and Ultimate Modelling Products strong solutions as both work better than MicroSol/Set IMHO when applying decals over ridged surfaces or when a decal is quite thick.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Colin.

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6 hours ago, Lindsey C said:

Hi Guys,

 

Hope you are all keeping well.

 

Well Damn Lidl! They recently had Mk1 Hurricane (A68216), Mk1a Spitfire (A68206) & BF109-E3 (A68205) Airfix kits for €7.99 each. I thought 'that will be a bit of cheap fun' for this once prolific model maker (returning after 35+ years away) and I can create a little BoB shelf in my little display cabinet. 😊

 

Now it has all got out of hand and is costing a small fortune! Of course I have to have all the aircraft to be fair so have had to buy Boulton Paul Defiant Mk1, Dornier 172-2, Ju87B-1, Ju88 A-1, Bf 110C/D (Eduard Kit which is impressive), all the paints, flat brushes, detail brushes etc. etc. Packages are even arriving from Poland since Airfix can seem to supply nothing to me here in Ireland and their website wasted 2 hours of my time! (Brexit Panic maybe?) Super-hobbys in Poland are seriously impressive and efficient having a huge range all in stock. Of course I still need to obtain a HE111 H2-3. I can't find one in day bombing colours from the earlier part of the Battle and may need to find and back build one if I can get the decals etc. (Any help here appreciated). It will be a long time until I get to the He111.

 

I have started with the Fabric Wing Hurricane to re-learn, hone new skills. A lot has changed since I have been away! Weathering, detailing etc. I want the BoB aircraft to look fairly worn/constantly used since these were desperate times and the only thing on ground crews minds was keeping aircraft in the air rather than touching up paint and aesthetics. The Hurricane is taking longer than I thought. I looked in the Spitfire kit and the pilot is a terrible looking individual. An escaped Orc from Lord of the Rings with hands and legs an Ogre would be proud of (see Avatar pic)! 🤣 I won't even go into depth about the horrendous flashing on the sprue's but has any got a 1:72 scale jig-saw I can borrow to cut out the landing gear on the Spitty? The Spitfire pilot cannot go into any model of mine so the Hurricane pilot is being saved for the Spitfire. This means the Hurricane has become an 'open cockpit' model meaning cutting back fuselage to let the Canopy be in the open position. It has also meant scratch building gun sight, Sutton Harness straps etc. I've also been detailing. Drilling out exhausts, gun ports, building clear starboard and port wing lights etc. That's why the build is taking longer. 🧐 I will get faster as I go on (I now know how to make RAF 1:72 Sutton Harness straps and have a few spares made! lol). I can put up progress in the appropriate forum if anyone is interested and no doubt you guys might have useful info & tips for me.

 

One thing I am struggling with is the horrible Humbrol Clear for the supposed glass like canopies! Despite pre-cleaning the Clear pulls away and leaves unsightly looking areas. It does nothing like the Humbrol Youtube video! I would like to see theirs when dry! I have de-greased with detergent, metholated spirits, lighter fluid. Tried 1 dip, 2 dips, brush coats. Makes no difference! Is there a better gloss out there that will achieve that 'glass like' finish'?

 

Thx in advance,

 

Lindsey

Well now you need to learn how to marble pre-shade so you can have unrealistic looking models 😉

 

 But seriously, welcome back to the hobby and enjoy all the newer kits we have now. Looking forward to seeing some of your work.

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4 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

Sorry, just to add that I bought some Humbrol Clear varnish and it was truly awful so threw it in the bin. As for decal  solutions I've recently bought  the Daco strong and Ultimate Modelling Products strong solutions as both work better than MicroSol/Set IMHO when applying decals over ridged surfaces or when a decal is quite thick.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Is that Gloss Cote? I use to use the Humbrol Cotes for all my varnishes, but like the rest of the Humbrol enamels the quality became really bad, so I don't buy anything Humbrol anymore.

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For clear parts I use 'Astonish' floor polish, almost exactly the same as the famous Klear. I get it in Home Bargains, 99p for 750ml

Make sure both the part and the drying area is very warm

I use a halogen spot-light over an area given over to model paint drying. I use it for the heat off the bulb.

A couple of times I did not warm the canopy up and it dried a wee bit matt misty

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As @Troy Smith mentioned me I must welcome you aboard. I'm based in Galway. All good advice too. I agree about excessive weathering. Sometimes modellers produce models of aeroplanes so battered, no sane pilot would fly it, not even an Orc from lord of the rings! Use original references. Don't copy other modellers too much. 

 

Not sure what the problem with the Airfix shop is but plenty of other UK based retailers have got their post Brexit act together and will even deduct VAT.

 

But there are several model shops around Ireland, notably Marks models, RB models, MCLdirect. All have shops you can visit if you're local but they do mail order too. 

 

You sound like you're hitting the ground running. You'll find plenty of help here though. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by noelh
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The Humbrol varnish I binned was the Gloss Clear (water based) that comes in a bottle and was utter rubbish as it left micro bubbles on the surface, however I've had no problems with their enamel Cote varnishes and in fact it's these that I always use now as they airbrush perfectly and always give me the expected finish.

 

Regards

Colin.

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Just to add, I also tried the Humbrol rattle can acrylic varnish and have binned that as well as it reacted very badly with the enamel paint due to the solvent it contains, so Humbrol products seem to be very hit and miss and not as reliable as they used to be.

 

I do on occasions use their enamels but only when Colourcoats or Xtracolor are out of stock but they seem to be OK even if the actual colour can bear no relation to its description!

 

Regards

Colin.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks very much guys. I really need to get my Canopy's 'nailed down' before I go anywhere near the Ju88, Do 17 & any He111!

 

Black Knight - I got some Astonish Floor Polish today. A test part now drying 🙂 I could only get a 1 litre bottle! Enough for 20 lifetimes of canopy dipping!

 

Dnl42 & - I will get some Deluxe, Looks Like Glass and try that too. My nearest modelling shop is 30 mins away in Enniskillen and he does Deluxe products so he can get it in for me. While on this subject, I presume this is also good stuff for my varnish coat before washes & decal application? The Clear may suffice there anyway. It will be going on over Enamel with the final coat being Enamel Matt Varnish.

 

NoelH - I am not too far from you Noel. I live on the border between Leitrim & Donegal. I have already mail ordered from Mark's Models. Thanks for info on the other 2 outlets.

 

Humbrol here we go again! The Humbrol Matt Coat does not impress me too much either. It is not very flat. I must try 2, 3 or 4 thinned coats? What is the best Matt Varnish? Windsor & Newton Galleria? I am brushing everything.

 

Troy Smith, you seem best qualified to direct this one too. Directly out of production, actually how Matt were freshly delivered Raf Aircraft in 1940? Were they truly Matt at all?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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8 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

Black Knight - I got some Astonish Floor Polish today. A test part now drying 🙂 I could only get a 1 litre bottle! Enough for 20 lifetimes of canopy dipping!

aye, well, they  do change the bottles too frequently

 

Black Knight, aka BK or Fred

 

9 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

Humbrol here we go again! The Humbrol Matt Coat does not impress me too much either. It is not very flat. I must try 2, 3 or 4 thinned coats? What is the best Matt Varnish? Windsor & Newton Galleria? I am brushing everything.

W & N Galleria is well recommended on this forum by many

However, I prefer Vallejo varnishes. I thin the gloss with Astonish and thin the matt with water and put it on in several thin coats

A handy paint additive to have around is Tamiya Flat Base. A bit of this added to a matt acrylic paint will make it more matt and make gloss paint matt.

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43 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

Black Knight - I got some Astonish Floor Polish today. A test part now drying

Well 'Hot Diggity Damn and Yahey'. Test part came out well so I risked a Hurricane front screen and it is way better than Humbrol Clear! I blast out music on a proper HiFi system when modelling and used the heat off the Amp for my warming. Risky I know since this involves air flow and dreaded dust but it suffices for tests. 🤣

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2 hours ago, Lindsey C said:

Troy Smith, you seem best qualified to direct this one too. Directly out of production, actually how Matt were freshly delivered Raf Aircraft in 1940? Were they truly Matt at all?

a slight eggshell sheen when new.  

this is a newish Spitfire, but early 41, so post BoB, so well looked after

3052829500_b0b527c484_b.jpgSpitfire in England by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

4181500566_66b201d45b_b.jpgSpitfire in England. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

3757129355_f64b70a8f0_b.jpgSpitfire II. 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

they did matt down with age. 

Note also the colours, these are some of the best period colur to show fresh Dark Green and Dark Earth. 

Note the subtle greenness to the DE

from here

Flickr Search

All period colour.  One of the best places online to see how Spitfires weather and stain.  

 

One feature of early Hurricane is that in a few months the fabric seems to have faded faster than the metal areas

look at the wing,  the metal vs fabric areas

2527541716_722f54a43f_b.jpgHurricane by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

then at the fuselage metal vs fabric.  Don't know if it faded, or was just slightly more matt, or matted faster and looks lighter.

from here 

Flickr Search

 

both compiled by  @Etiennedup

 

More later

T

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Posted (edited)

Brilliant! Thanks Troy.

 

I would think complete Matt was a hard sheen to obtain for any 'real aircraft' paint then. I would say drag was of no concern then and they were happy if it 'matted down'.

 

I want my BoB shelf to be honest and factual. I intend to have a little card with info on each aircraft (detailed info that I can obtain hopefully) on the shelf for any that care to view the BoB shelf. I think this makes it more meaningful for any looking in. The Bf 110 will most likely be L1 X B rammed in the air by the Hurricane flown by F/O Burton, 249 Squadron after a long, low altitude chase with the loss of all 3 airmen. I presume he was out of ammunition? I have to research this further. It shows the extremes of the time. Though I know little of these desperate times and my father was only 4 at the start of the war, he remembers a Lysander crashing in the field down the road. He remembers vividly the wings cutting the tops off the trees in the 'Spinny' before it landed on the field the other side. Both pilots survived though the pilot lost one of his ears. He used have a piece of perspex with a swastika on it from another aircraft that he collected from a crashed aircraft but it was lost over the years,

 

Since you are a Hurricane man I will relate the story I like best. His father, my Grandad built Auster Reconnaissance aircraft in Thurmaston during the war and afterwards (we all hail from Leicester). This is directly from my Grandad as verbatim as I can remember it. For some reason, unknown to my Grandad, they had a Hurricane in one of the hangers at Thurmaston one day. An 'amazement' to humble Auster builders at the time. Cutting edge fighter! He said an RAF 'Big Wig' (his words) arrived and went straight to the Hurricane. He eventually got round to being seated in the cockpit. He asked if he could press the fire button on the stick and they themselves couldn't see why not. They didn't know who was in charge or meant to be showing him round the aircraft. The noise was horrific and the 'Big Wig' blew a big 'oval shaped' hole in the side of the hanger! They didn't know the aircraft was armed. How would they? My Grandad was amazed how far the Hurricane reversed within the hanger!

 

Regards

 

Lindsey

Edited by Lindsey C
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3 hours ago, Lindsey C said:

The noise was horrific and the 'Big Wig' blew a big 'oval shaped' hole in the side of the hanger! They didn't know the aircraft was armed. How would they? My Grandad was amazed how far the Hurricane reversed within the hanger!

😱

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11 hours ago, Lindsey C said:

The Humbrol Matt Coat does not impress me too much either. It is not very flat.

I brush Humbrol matt coat too. My experience is that the key is that it needs a lot of mixing to get a flat surface, you will get a sheen if you do not mix sufficiently. If you do mix, one coat may be enough, two coats will give a very matt finish, though you have to give the first coat plenty of time to dry properly if brushing.

 

Paul

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Just now, vildebeest said:

I brush Humbrol matt coat too. My experience is that the key is that it needs a lot of mixing to get a flat surface, you will get a sheen if you do not mix sufficiently. If you do mix, one coat may be enough, two coats will give a very matt finish, though you have to give the first coat plenty of time to dry properly if brushing.

Thanks vildebeest. 👌

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Thoroughly mixing is the key to the Humbrol 'Cote' varnishes and if this is done then in my experience they work really well. I generally stir them with a cocktail stick for at least 2-3 minutes followed by a fairly animated shake for another 30 seconds or so. The same is also true of the Xtracrylix varnishes as well.

 

Regards

Colin.

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8 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

Thoroughly mixing is the key to the Humbrol 'Cote' varnishes

Thanks Colin.

 

I have been looking at the Arma Hobby 1:72 Mk1 Hurricane kits. They all have 4 spoke wheels (Except the Eastern front which has both)! I presume one can purchase a 5 spoke wheel for them?

 

Regards,

Lindsey

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29 minutes ago, Lindsey C said:

I have been looking at the Arma Hobby 1:72 Mk1 Hurricane kits. They all have 4 spoke wheels (Except the Eastern front which has both)! I presume one can purchase a 5 spoke wheel for them?

 

Hello, @Lindsey C. Never a bad idea to ask, they seem to be very customer oriented; in any case, CMK has a set, available for example from Hannants (although I don't know now how easy is to buy from them from Ireland now): https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CMQ72081?result-token=DyEcB

 

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12 minutes ago, Fukuryu said:

Hello, @Lindsey C. Never a bad idea to ask, they seem to be very customer oriented; in any case, CMK has a set, available for example from Hannants (although I don't know now how easy is to buy from them from Ireland now

Thanks Fukuryu,

 

The 'Curse of the Mk1 5 Spoke' strikes again! 🥴

 

Rgds

Lindsey

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