Bf-109E-7 Tropical canopy question

[Gary Brantley]

Hello everyone, I'm working on a Hobbycraft Bf-109E-7 Tropical model and I want to use the kit-supplied one-piece canopy.   It has the single piece of top framing on the rearmost section of the canopy, between the radio mast and the leading edge of that section.  It looks much like this one at Herndon, which I've been told is incorrect for the type.

 

 

I can sand off the offending section of framing if need be and polish the scratches out, but would rather not have to of course.  My question is whether or not the 109E-7 ever appeared with such a canopy?    Or, am I just grasping for a straw in hopes of moving the build along? 😉  Thanks for any help and advice!  Cheers!🥂

Gary

[Troy Smith]

22 minutes ago, Gary Brantley said:

 It looks much like this one at Herndon, which I've been told is incorrect for the type.

the CENTRE section of the Hendon Bf109 E is taken from a Bf109G,  (there are photos in flight after capture with no centre section)  the rest is correct for the squared off E model canopy.

 

Legend has it the Hobbycraft E model is based on the Hasegawa E BTW

 

this is an E-7, pulled out of a lake in Russia, and unrestored

Interestingly it look like the top bar here, is under the perspex, which is new to me! 

 

much more here, keep clicking 'more photos'

https://www.net-maquettes.com/pictures/messerschmitt-bf-109e/

 

Hmm.  I'll @SafetyDad @tank152 as they maybe able to add in some more info

 

the 109 lair

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

 

has walkrounds of most of the preserved 109s as well, several E's

 

HTH

[tank152]

I'm sure the front part on the top of the canopy slid back. Is that the part you was referring to?@Troy Smith

[Troy Smith]

Just now, tank152 said:

The front part on the top of the canopy slid back. Is that the part you was referring to?@Troy Smith

No, the rear fixed section. in the salvaged E-7, the top centre bar  in the rear fixed part looks to under the perspex in the photo I posted.   This was news too me, and as it is displayed 'as found'  thought it of note.

 

The Hendon pic Gary posted looks like like it's above, but maybe the light.    I wan't in the mood to go through the 109 lair walkrounds, and thought I'd ask some 109 buffs if they knew more.

 

cheers

T

 

[tank152]

Ah, I see what you mean now. 

[Werdna]

34 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

No, the rear fixed section. in the salvaged E-7, the top centre bar  in the rear fixed part looks to under the perspex in the photo I posted.   This was news too me, and as it is displayed 'as found'  thought it of note.

 

A bit clearer in this pic here.  Definitely under the perspex.  Unless it's some kind of conduit for the radio, or other cabling..

 

[JackG]

Hmm, it's got me wondering too.   My reference books have that center frame illustrated  all throughout, from the E-1 to G-6.   Looking at some models:

 

1/72 Airfix 109E- molded inside

1/72 Special Hobby 109E-4 - molded outside

1/48 Eduard  109E-4 molded outside

1/48 Eduard 109F - molded inside

1/48 Hasegawa G-6 - molded  inside

1/32 Dragon E-3 molded  inside

1/32 Trumpeter E-3 molded  inside

 

From a walk around page of the E-3 in Deutsches Museum Flugwerft Schleissheim, Oberschleissheim, Germany

http://walkarounds.scalemodels.ru/v/walkarounds/avia/before_1950/bf-109e-3/?g2_page=5

 

 

 

 

Bf 109E Heritage

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/bf109/bf109e_walk1.shtml

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Gary Brantley]

Thanks for the wealth of information gents! 🍻    This tale of intrigue began with the Squadron vac-form canopy set I bought. I had also heard that the Hobbycraft kit was based on the Hasegawa kit.  The Squadron set comes with a canopy for the Hasegawa 1/48 Bf 109E-4/7 and one for the Tamiya Bf 109E-4/7.   I wanted to have the center section opened so I figured that I could piece together the three pieces of the canopy by using whichever parts fit best.  Right. 😉

 

The front windscreen for either set doesn't fit the HC kit well; the fuselage cowl on the kit is much less rounded and leaves a large gap at the bottom edge.   A good filling job would be required there.  I'm also not happy with the opening canopy section for either kit after cutting them out, mostly lack of experience on my part.   

 

The rear-most section, under discussion here, was also a bit wide for the HC fuselage.    I tried the part for the Tamiya kit because it had the attachment point for the radio mast, which the Hasegawa rear section doesn't.    After futzing around with all the vac-form parts, I decided that the trade-off to have a better view of the cockpit wasn't worth what would be required to make it fit and that the kit one-piece canopy (which does fit perfectly) would result in a much cleaner build.  So, here we are.   Interestingly enough,  Hasegawa and Hobbycraft have the center framing on the rear part.  Tamiya does not. 

 

I haven't had time yet to follow all the kindly provided links yet, but based on the photos posted, I feel that bar beneath the perspex might best be represented by painting that from the inside, or even applying a piece of painted decal on the inside to replicate the perspex over framing look.   But, the kit canopy does have raised framing there so I'm not too sure about my idea on that part.  It may well end up painted on the outside and be done with it.

 

A new issue has been raised for me though.  While both the vac-form canopies have the center framing on the opening section, as well as a line representing the vertical edge of the sliding section, the Hobbycraft canopy has no framing in the center at all, looking more like the E-3 pics from the German museum above.   No detail on the side glass either.   Regarding the salvaged E-7 from the Russian lake; in Troy's pic, it appears to no have top framing on the center section, but then Werdna's posted photo certainly does have that shown.   No sure what that means?  

 

I know that the exigencies of war result in using parts that are available and perhaps even various aircraft of the same sub-type might demonstrate different configurations.  Perhaps that's the case here.   Tomorrow, I'll delve into those links in earnest.    Apparently, this plot does thicken!   Thanks again for the help thus far friends.  🍺

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Gary Brantley

[dov]

For many of WW2 aircraft you should consider the issue of frame of glazing:

It is no matter if German or British.

The issue is valid on both!

For instance: Bf-109, Bf-110, Ju-88,....Halifax, Lancaster......

 

Happy modelling

[Bozothenutter]

On canopies I've been thinking of sanding the frames.

Maybe not all the way, but just making them thinner.

You could even first engrave the outline of the windows, sand it all away, then use a masking set. Might even get scale thickness 🤔

[SafetyDad]

Not sure I have much extra to add to this thread, but, for the sake of completeness, here's Thomas Hitchcock's thoughts on Bf 109 canopy evolution. Note he believes that the radio mast was supported by the metal fitting running inside the rear fixed canopy portion. It's also worth comparing the upper transparent panels used on the E-4 and the G - no metal strip as opposed to a much weightier framework. @Werdna's picture looks much more like the G canopy than the E, based upon the heftiness of the framing (including triple metal strips in the centre framing).

 

 

This information is from here and is posted for the purpose of discussion only in accordance with UK Copyright Law.

 

 

It's old now, but still has some useful pictures and drawings inside. I remember how hard this was to find 20 years ago!

 

SD

[Werdna]

18 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

@Werdna's picture looks much more like the G canopy than the E, based upon the heftiness of the framing (including triple metal strips in the centre framing).

 

Yes, it could well be a 'G' (or an 'F' maybe?).  Interesting point about the spar being there to support the mast - but it makes me wonder whether it would have been easier to support this from the fuselage end, rather than through the canopy frame?  I'm sure they knew what they were doing though..  

[JackG]

Found a few more references.  Another image from a walk around does support the central frame is underneath the glass.  This plus the other two links appear to be square tubing that is tapered at either end:

 

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[tango98]

Hi Gary,

The Herndon 109E has, since the original canopy centre section went ‘walkabout’, has had a couple of canopies fitted for display purposes over the years. When this was the subject of a discussion a few years ago it was pointed out on good authority that the canopy section currently fitted came from a non- flying ‘109E’ featured in the Battle of Britain film of the late 60’s.

 

Dave