daneel Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 Hi everybody, here's hoping there is someone here more knowledgeable about russian WWII VVS colours... So I bought Hataka's Late WW2 Soviet Air Force Acrylic Paint Set, and two of the colours don't seem that well matched... Looking at other La-5FN models on the net, the top two greys seem much more, well, grey... On my La-5FN, the lighter grey seems too blue, and the otherr seems too dark... Which seems strange to me for Hataka, because all other colours I have of theirs are superbly matched... These are supposed to be AMT-11 and AMT-12... Is Hataka actually right, and all other modellers wrong? Or did it slip by them that these colours are not correct (other colours in the set, AMT-7 light blue, light brown and green, are perfectly matched)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 I have the same Hataka late war VVS set - and my AMT-11 is nothing like the colour you have there. I can't see any problem with the AMT-12. Generally, I think the Hataka VVS set is fairly well regarded (less so some of their late war Luftwaffe colours), so I can't explain the colour in your pic. Could be the result of whatever primer/base coat you used? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 As I understand it, when the actual reference colours were discovered in Russian archives, the two greys were both particularly dark, giving little contrast between the two, Previous artistic renditions of these colours had shown much more contrast, in line with what is seen on your model, and as might be expected from aircraft camouflages. AKAN and others produced paints that matched these colours as on the reference, but models produced using these paints did not seem to match the appearance of the wartime b&w photographs. Colour photos of this scheme are rare indeed, but those of the Normandie-Niemen on their way home showed a contrast that was much more as expected. It was suggested that the original sample had altered during their storage, thus now representing an incorrect appearance. As you can imagine, this would introduce significant problems with all the other colours. Perhaps for this reason, it was largely discounted. Not reading Russian, I have not been able to follow the latest thinking, but am not aware of any particular resolution of the matter. If you are interested in a detailed account of how such records can change with time, and the effect on modellers' information, I strongly recommend the Sovereign Hobbies website, where Jamie McDuff explains why his set of WW2 Royal Navy colours differ from earlier ones obtained using acknowledged references, and why his are much likelier to be accurate (basically because of going back to the original recommended constituents and seeing what you get by following the instructions). By the way, on my screen the darker grey appears as a green, which I presume is a feature of the lighting rather than the paints. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 The 11 and 12 did start off as quite dark and low contrast, but apparently faded quickly in service. Nevertheless, I don't recognise that rendition of Hataka AMT-11 at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 This is the French Yak 3 stripped back to the original paint, AMT 7, AMT 11 and AMT 12. Cheers Dennis 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 48 minutes ago, Graham Boak said: Colour photos of this scheme are rare indeed, but those of the Normandie-Niemen on their way home showed a contrast that was much more as expected. Wartime pic, taken in Italy by an American, (on of the shuttle bombing trips, the Yak-9DD were escorts) possibly the only circulating wartime colour image? the planes look new, AMT-12, when new, is dark blue grey, AMT-11 is mid grey, as well as AMT-7 being really blue, the sliver star outline is also of note. Compare with the preserved Yak-3 above. HTH 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 (edited) On that model, the AMT-12 Dark Grey looks good for faded AMT-12, but that AMT-11 is much too blue. Although the Soviets referred to it as 'Grey-Blue', it was really more of a medium grey colour, as Troy mentions above. I have read from some sources that AMT-12 Dark Grey was very dark when new - almost black (the colour it was replacing on fighters was AMT-6 Black). Regards, Jason Edited June 22, 2021 by Learstang Additional comments added. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 @daneel did you shake the bottle well? Some of their colors tend to separate in the bottle and require thorough mixing and shaking before use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigster Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Please do have a look on Massimos page: https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html He's done a lot of work re VVS. Zig 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 49 minutes ago, zigster said: Please do have a look on Massimos page: https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html He's done a lot of work re VVS. Zig I'll second that, Massimo's site is a treasure trove of good information. Here's a link to the Forums https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/board/index.php Cheers Dennis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daneel Posted June 23, 2021 Author Share Posted June 23, 2021 Tnx guys for all the info Thanks to Werdna's post and one other guy on another forum, I believe that it was just a bad batch of color and AMT-11 should look very differently. Zigster and Spitfire, thank you both for the links, I wasn't aware of them before, cheers 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Fwiw, I believe that photo has far too much blue in it, I did some fiddling with colours in Irfanview till I got something far less saturated ,& realistic, to my eye, looking & the Yak took on a very normal looking dark & lighter grey appearance. The DC-3 looking aircraft had a much better looking OD type finish too. Not at all scientific but maybe indicating the weird shades are in the film/developing/copying, not real life. Steve. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Learstang Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 To be honest, Steve, that picture looked a bit over-saturated to me. The sky was too blue, too saturated. I think I may do a little fiddling around with it myself with my various photo/imaging software. Regards, Jason 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil_Toast_RSA Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 Now that the OP has had his question answered, I would like to engage in my countries favorite pastime and do some hijacking. Ran across Massimo's page last week in doing some research for a few VVS planes I would like to do one day (La-5FN already on the way to me), but I would dearly love to know which Vallejo, Tamiya and Mr Color paints are acceptable matches? The FS numbers supplied don't throw up any matches for me and I cannot get Akan or Hataka paints here unless I play import roulette. Any tips would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigster Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 (edited) Quoting Eduard's instruction, Gunze Mr Color: 323 - light blue (underside) / 317 - gray / 331 - dark gray Hope, that helps. BTW. If you ever have that kind of "head scratch", go to https://www.scalemates.com/ look for some models along your line of interest, download instruction, compare to others, make choices :-)) zig Edited June 24, 2021 by zigster Additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 http://scalewiki.ru/амт (a bit dated) or/and 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 3 hours ago, Evil_Toast_RSA said: Now that the OP has had his question answered, I would like to engage in my countries favorite pastime and do some hijacking. Ran across Massimo's page last week in doing some research for a few VVS planes I would like to do one day (La-5FN already on the way to me), but I would dearly love to know which Vallejo, Tamiya and Mr Color paints are acceptable matches? The FS numbers supplied don't throw up any matches for me and I cannot get Akan or Hataka paints here unless I play import roulette. Any tips would be appreciated. Somewhere on Massimo's site, there is a list of Vallejo equivalents to AMT-7, 11 and 12, but I can't seem to locate it at the moment. I do believe that it suggested 71.008 for AMT-7 and I think 71.047 for AMT-12 as I have these and they seem a reasonable match. It's also worth noting that Vallejo offers it's own AMT colours, but I'm not sure if these are just re-labelled from the colours I just mentioned, or new colours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbolt Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 11 hours ago, stevehnz said: Fwiw, I believe that photo has far too much blue in it, I did some fiddling with colours in Irfanview till I got something far less saturated ,& realistic, to my eye, looking & the Yak took on a very normal looking dark & lighter grey appearance. The DC-3 looking aircraft had a much better looking OD type finish too. Not at all scientific but maybe indicating the weird shades are in the film/developing/copying, not real life. Steve. That looks a bit better, there's certainly appears to be a green cast with a little oversaturation. It'll be interesting to see what Jason comes up with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted June 24, 2021 Share Posted June 24, 2021 5 hours ago, dragonlanceHR said: http://scalewiki.ru/амт (a bit dated) or/and Ouch another painful remembrance of old gunze h58. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLinevitch Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Presumably, the paint manufacturer just doesn't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 That one's had a number of different schemes in its time in the museum, and I wouldn't trust any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DLinevitch Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Graham Boak said: That one's had a number of different schemes in its time in the museum, and I wouldn't trust any of them. Of course! Isn't it lovely that the paint manufacturer took the shades from the wrong colors? Here more autentic Edited June 25, 2021 by DLinevitch 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.C. Bahr Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 On 6/22/2021 at 10:45 AM, Troy Smith said: Wartime pic, taken in Italy by an American, (on of the shuttle bombing trips, the Yak-9DD were escorts) possibly the only circulating wartime colour image? the planes look new, AMT-12, when new, is dark blue grey, AMT-11 is mid grey, as well as AMT-7 being really blue, the sliver star outline is also of note. Compare with the preserved Yak-3 above. HTH Thanks for posting this Troy! I'd ran across a small version of it a long time ago, but could never find a bigger pic like you posted. Can I ask where this originates from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 39 minutes ago, J.C. Bahr said: Thanks for posting this Troy! I'd ran across a small version of it a long time ago, but could never find a bigger pic like you posted. Can I ask where this originates from? I don't know, I found this on Hyperscale thread on VVS colours. Judging by the bit of a drawing in the corner, a book originally, no idea what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
occa Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 Silver surround of the red star !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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