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17 Pounder, Morris C8 & Jeep


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As I was digging through the stash for something else today I came across this, the Revell boxing of Matchbox's 17 Pounder A/T gun, it's tractor and a Jeep. Along with probably the finest piece of Matchbox's diorama bases. As it was cheap in the first place and reduced further then it's an ideal contribution to this GB. I think I got it either at Modelzone when closing or at an outlet store in Croydon which was flogging off a lot of Modelzone stock. 

 

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There's three dark green sprues which are crisply moulded and relatively flash free containing a reasonably detailed anti tank gun, Morris truck and a little jeep with drivers but no gun crew. And a super piece of bombed out French streetscape. 

 

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Umpteen pages of imstructions. I think Matchbox had everything on two sides but Revell have a lot more detail. 

 

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Colour call outs for three sets of options in NW Europe post D Day all night with a fair amount of transfers. I think I'll finish the set as late North Africa where these guns were first deployed. 

 

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Nice.
North Africa 🤔 I never wave away a good Mickey Mouse but oh well, Northern Europe is quite often the chosen one. A little diversity is welcome.
Mud / Blueblack then? To give it some Sicilian hunch.

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2 hours ago, Steben said:

Nice.
North Africa 🤔 I never wave away a good Mickey Mouse but oh well, Northern Europe is quite often the chosen one. A little diversity is welcome.
Mud / Blueblack then? To give it some Sicilian hunch.

Thanks Steven, I did a couple of Bedford trucks a few years ago in the Mickey Mouse scheme for the D-Day GB. And although it looks nice it took forever. I'm leaning towards straight Light Stone at the moment but I'll have a look at some pictures. 

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Some progress with truck sub assemblies started. The parts are all nicely moulded but they are fiddly, while the plastic is quite hard so getting the attachment points off takes a little time. Also I forgot, it's a 2006 boxing so I assume it's Revell sprues, how much Revell plastic is initially resistant to glue. The only thing the parts stick to are your fingers and tweezers, not each other, initially. A little bit of unseemly language has ensued. Anyway once they stick things build up well. 

 

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started on the gun as well. 

 

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30 minutes ago, 825 said:

Thanks Steven, I did a couple of Bedford trucks a few years ago in the Mickey Mouse scheme for the D-Day GB. And although it looks nice it took forever. I'm leaning towards straight Light Stone at the moment but I'll have a look at some pictures. 

All those choices right? ...
17pdrs did rarely come into play in 1942, rather look for early 1943 I guess.
Pure light stone might be out of date then for AFV. Not sure for softskins and guns though.

 

Directive in 19 oct 1942 calls for horizontal disruptive lines in dark green or equivalents over base colour.
The JEEP is mentioned with camo patterns in g(cam) drawing A/141.

By that time this was Desert Pink ZI... Though directives took time to be implemented.
So you have a span between early 1943 which involves the use of 17pdrs and the directives from oct 1942.

You can do ANYTHING. Though this picture (tunisia 1943) clearly shows camo.
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Specialists? @Mike Starmer

Edited by Steben
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Some 17pdrs were seen in Tunisia but these were on 25pdr chassis and known as Pheasants.  However the tractors were conversions from the C8 portee which used to carry the 2pdr and later 6 pdr AT guns, and as fitted with a new body to suit the towing role with the 17 pdr.

 

However I think some 17 pdrs were seen in Italy, possibly with Ford WOT8 or White half-track tractors, and these are likely to have been in Light Mud, which although not as light and bright as Light Stone would at least provide some difference from SCC15 and/or "Mickey Mouse".

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5 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Some 17pdrs were seen in Tunisia but these were on 25pdr chassis and known as Pheasants.  However the tractors were conversions from the C8 portee which used to carry the 2pdr and later 6 pdr AT guns, and as fitted with a new body to suit the towing role with the 17 pdr.

 

However I think some 17 pdrs were seen in Italy, possibly with Ford WOT8 or White half-track tractors, and these are likely to have been in Light Mud, which although not as light and bright as Light Stone would at least provide some difference from SCC15 and/or "Mickey Mouse".


I agree. I'ld rather place eventual 17 pdrs in Italy with Light Mud base.
Personally I would call Light Stone "bright" if very yellow in sunlight is ment, but not "lighter" than mud in pure neutral brightness.

Edited by Steben
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2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't think that Light Mud looks anywhere near as light as Light Stone in b&w photos.

Next to each other you are right and my statement could be called wrong!

But light mud is usually seen with blueblack...

Edited by Steben
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Hi Steben,

 

Yes the blue/black SCC 14 was the most common "disruptive" colour used over the "mud" base in Italy I believe, but sometimes a green similar in colour to SCC 7 was used instead.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Thanks @Steben, @Graham Boak and @PeterB for your helpful information to put me right. I didn't know that the 17 pounders in North Africa were on 25 pounder chassis. A bit like the early 25 pounder guns being on old 18 pounder chassis. Thanks also for the useful colour information, although I'll have to have a rethink. I do have some desert pink paint and dark green so would be able to use them. I don't have any of the muds though so that creates a challenge if I wanted an Italian campaign livery. I'll have a ponder, as if I decid to go pink + green I'll have to look for a picture of the scheme. Which from the photo above does extend over the gun as well as the tractor. 

 

Thanks again. Greatly appreciated information. 

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I am not going to swear to this, but I have read that towards the end of the Italian campaign there were complaints coming in that the mud colour was no longer appropriate and at some point in time they switched to the SCC15 British OD that was introduced early in 1944 as the European base colour, in time for D-Day! On tanks, instructions went out saying that following the introduction of SCC15 there should be no disruptive colour applied but some units still used SCC14 blue/black. As the 17pdr fell under the control of the Royal Artillery I have no idea whether they used a disruptive pattern or not from that point onwards (they certainly did on some guns earlier), and historically second line vehicles such as lorries tended not to be repainted until they had a major repair/service so old schemes lingered on, hence the Mickey Mouse black over Khaki Brown G3 on many late in the war.

 

Pete

Edited by PeterB
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Thanks @AdrianMF and @PeterB, I'm still thinking about what paint choices. I've proceeded further with putting things together and the gun and tractor are getting there. A little bit of filler was needed but I think that was me being a little over enthusiastic with the sanding stick. 

 

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On 14/06/2021 at 13:43, PeterB said:

I am not going to swear to this, but I have read that towards the end of the Italian campaign there were complaints coming in that the mud colour was no longer appropriate and at some point in time they switched to the SCC15 British OD that was introduced early in 1944 as the European base colour, in time for D-Day! On tanks, instructions went out saying that following the introduction of SCC15 there should be no disruptive colour applied but some units still used SCC14 blue/black. As the 17pdr fell under the control of the Royal Artillery I have no idea whether they used a disruptive pattern or not from that point onwards (they certainly did on some guns earlier), and historically second line vehicles such as lorries tended not to be repainted until they had a major repair/service so old schemes lingered on, hence the Mickey Mouse black over Khaki Brown G3 on many late in the war.

 

Pete

 

I suppose you mean khaki green? (which is brownish of course :D )

I find the colour of the trucks behind her majesty the queen in 1945 very khaki greenish...
Queen_ww2.jpg

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Quite right - a typo again - must be getting old! G3 was indeed Khaki Green, although it does look rather brown at times.

 

Pete

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6 hours ago, PeterB said:

Quite right - a typo again - must be getting old! G3 was indeed Khaki Green, although it does look rather brown at times.

 

Pete

Yes, it looks very brown in the MTP39 scheme with dark green.

KG3 is a kind of olive drab after all, like so many military colours are. Mere "OD" is a colour family, not a colour. I remember colour control of visually mixed olive drabs in the US led to labeling some as (brown) greens and some as (green) browns.
Even sand colours are basically (brownish) OD's mixed with white white. Even Field Drab or Dark Earth look greenish compared to dark browns and I still see them as the outer limit of OD.

Total freaks like me do have affinity to colours and olive drabs are on the top of the list.
German camo patterns are interesting and offer variaton, but I prefer OD base shade vehicles anytime. "Black over drab" as seen on Allied vehicles and later on British cold war kit is the best of both camo variation and OD base.
A certain pantone olive drab shade (can't recall right now which one) was choosen I think in Australia as the ugliest colour ever, leading to the use of it on tabacco products. Never understood this. It is beautiful. Can't work.

Edited by Steben
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I started with a coat of desert pink but wasn't happy. I don't have anything like light mud so have started to put on some Olive and will take things from here. I used Lifecolour Olive as there was a bottle in with the Caunter colours I got for my Marmon Harrington AC. Once on it is almost the same as the Citadel Death Forest Green I used before. Not looking great as yet as the coats are thin but they will be green, possibly with black camouflage.

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/22/2021 at 7:44 PM, PlaStix said:

Hi 825. Great to see you have another build underway and that you are making excellent progress. :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

Thanks Stix, progress has been stop/start due to a combination of work, rugby and other models on the go. Some further painting and the seats stuck on. And the bonnet area tidied up with some filler. 

 

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And a start on the Jeep which goes together quite quickly. I prepainted all the parts on the sprue as the mouldings were very clean, so hopefully once assembled there will only be a bit of touching up to do. 

 

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And some further work work on the Morris to get us to here. There's not much more to go apart from wheels and the canopy before the transfers go on. 

 

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Hi 825. I totally understand about the rest of life getting in the way of modelling but I'm pleased to see you've still been making good progress with this project. :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

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On 6/22/2021 at 7:44 PM, PlaStix said:

Hi 825. Great to see you have another build underway and that you are making excellent progress. :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

Thanks Stix. There has been progress on these and I hopefully will be some photos tomorrow morning before I go off to help in the vaccination clinic. 

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A bit more done today with the wheels on and everything touched up. 

 

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The cover put together. 

 

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The Jeep is coming along too. It is small as this 20p coin shows. 

 

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I couldnt resist putting the Matchbox diorama base together. This is about the biggest and the best. 

 

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Hi 825. It's all coming together rather nicely. And yes - it is small isn't it! I hadn't realised until you included the 20 pence piece! You are doing a cracking job on such small scale models! :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

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On 7/21/2021 at 11:38 AM, PlaStix said:

Hi 825. It's all coming together rather nicely. And yes - it is small isn't it! I hadn't realised until you included the 20 pence piece! You are doing a cracking job on such small scale models! :thumbsup:

Kind regards,

Stix

Thanks Stix, the Jeep is small but thankfully Matchbox engineered it really well so it went together not too badly, with minimal clean up and no fettling. There is scope for further detailing but I like to leave Matchbox kits pretty much as they are. It's part of their charm I think. 

 

Anyhows I've added most of the transfers over a layer of Kleer to minimise silvering, I'll let dry and then matt them all down with some varnish. 

 

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There's a little to do to finish off. Before I add the canopy to the Jeep I need to glaze the windscreen. I'm looking for a small piece of clear plastic to glaze it but unsuccessful so far. I thought the surround from some vac form canopy might do but not found one that's big enough yet. There's plenty of stuff in the stash so I'll get there. 

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