Bf109e-4/B 8/JG53 October 1940

[FatFlyHalf]

Hello out there.  Can you help? 

I have some old but still workable decals from Aeromaster (sheet 72-003) and I want to use them to construct a model of Bf109E-4B/B W.Nr. 5901 (7 + I) that was supposed to have crashed in Kent on 2nd October 1940. I will be using one of the AZ 'joy-pack' kits I got recently.  It's the red cowling band that attracts as something a bit different !

The decal info sheet says that the aircraft was in 70/71/65 camouflage, or it may have been 74/75/65.  What was it, as it was in that transition stage between schemes and Autumn ?

So, any sage advice or definite knowledge ?

I'm tempted to go with a transitional 74/75/65 scheme as it seems right for a tip-and-run fighter bomber in October.

My Interweb searches have left me with nothing certain, other than some modellers have already had a go at the aircraft with varying degrees of success. 

FatFlyHalf

 

[Wulfman]

Probably not 74/75, could be mixed greys or even French colours ? Not much help I’m afraid.

 

Wulfman

[tank152]

CHi. 

So far i've found your aircraft in a couple of my books,

In Luftwaffe Gallery No 1 by Erik Mombeeck there's a nice profile by Thierry Dekker, someone who I trust. He has indeed used 70/71/65. The sides are 65 with the 70/71 extending down the sides from the canopy and sweeping up just before the tail. There is mottling on the fuselage sides under the cockpit up to the yellow cowls. Yellow nose with red stripe, aircraft has spinner cap also in yellow, that also has a red ring around it extending to the spinner back plate which appears to be 70 with a white segment.

In Luftwaffe colours Vol 2 section 3, Battle of Britain Phase 3 September -October 1940.

There are a couple of b/w photos of the aircraft on show to the public after it had been shot down. and the colours that are extended down do indeed look very dark so 70 looks quite feasible. I wouldn't really like to make a call on the wing upper surface as there's very little of it on show in one of the photos however the is quite a contrast between the 2 colours so i'd rule 70/71 being used fir those. Myself i'd probably go with 71/02. 

There's a profile accompanying the photos which is pretty much the same as before. It does state that the spinner was divided half and half red/yellow with yellow nose cap. Both profiles show yellow rudder.

No doubt there'll be photos of it in Red Kite's Luftwaffe Crash Archive i'll take a look later for you.

I've just taken a look at the Aeromaster 1/48 sheet that includes your aircraft and that definitely doesn't correspond with the photos.

There's 4 photos of the aircraft in Luftwaffe Crash Archive No 5.

I don't do photo hosting sites anymore but if you pm me your email address i'll gladly send you some pics.

Tim.

[V Line]

Not related to this specific aircraft but I've always regarded the photo of Gruppenkommandeur (sp?) Horten in front of his 109 E in late 1940 as a very good example of the emerging new camo scheme. Unless someone advises to the contrary I believe the colour is original.

 

Seems to be a combination of greys -probably mixed- over the original high line scheme.

[G.R.Morrison]

Horton was the Technical Officer; he's standing next to (Gruppenkommandeur) Gerhard Schöpfel's Bf 109E-7.  The small size of the Rumpfkreuze was common in the III/JG 26.

 

GRM

[FatFlyHalf]

 

I found this in my Interwebbing......

Looks like 71.02 over 65.

I think I'll go with that.

Thanks for the advice.

FFH

[Graham Boak]

18 hours ago, V Line said:

Not related to this specific aircraft but I've always regarded the photo of Gruppenkommandeur (sp?) Horten in front of his 109 E in late 1940 as a very good example of the emerging new camo scheme. Unless someone advises to the contrary I believe the colour is original.

 

Seems to be a combination of greys -probably mixed- over the original high line scheme.

Looks much more like 71/02 to me, in particular a modified scheme from the Battle of France style previously just with a high demarcation and 65 sides. 

[tank152]

4 hours ago, FatFlyHalf said:

 

I found this in my Interwebbing......

Looks like 71.02 over 65.

I think I'll go with that.

Thanks for the advice.

FFH

That's a colorised photo, be wary of those as like profiles, they are coloured at the whim of whoever has done it.

Although this one isn't to bad.

The original b & w photo is one of those in the LCA book.

[Troy Smith]

On 11/06/2021 at 11:53, FatFlyHalf said:

What was it, as it was in that transition stage between schemes and Autumn ?

So, any sage advice or definite knowledge ?

I'd read this

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articles/camo/bob/bob_camo.htm

 

which was written  by  @tango98    Dave   does  post  on  occasion,  and  crashed  enemy  aircraft were examined and described. 

 

For ease of reference,  these are the  bits relevant to you,  but the whole  article is worth a read.   

 

"Grey Camouflage?

Although often totally destroyed, all enemy aircraft that came down in the British Isles during the Second World War were thoroughly examined by intelligence teams from the Air Ministry and RAF.  The reports created from these examinations were known as Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports, and recorded such information as Werk Nummer, engine type, armament, additional or special equipment and often, markings and colours.  However, and to the disappointment of many post-war researchers, there were no set guidelines in these reports for describing the shades of the colours found on these downed aircraft.  Generally, any examination of the paint was confined to an evaluation of the type of finish and occasionally, some undamaged panels would be tested for paint durability.   

By mid-August, the first uses of greys and blue-greys as an upper camouflage colour were making their appearance in these reports, appearing with increasing frequency as the battle progressed. ‘light navy grey’, ‘two shades of grey’, ‘light grey with dark grey mottling’, ‘Battleship grey’, ‘mottled greys’ and ‘camouflage grey’ were some of the descriptions given, along with mention of varying shades of green-grey and blue-grey. Were these an indication of the earliest use of the greys 74[9] and 75[10] that would become the standard fighter camouflage the following year or, as recent research and correspondence indicates, that they were colours originally created at unit level?

 Since the appearance of the original version of this article I have received written confirmation from two former Jagdwaffe ground personnel confirming that on occasion, various grey shades were mixed and applied to some aircraft in an attempt to find suitable concealment when flying above the waters of the English Channel.  Confirmation that this occurred ties in with known practices carried out on Luftwaffe aircraft where a new paint or colour was applied to selected parts of an airframe to test its viability under operational conditions.  It can be found that the mixing of various combinations and percentages of the colours 02, 65, 66, 70 and 71, or similar colours in contemporary paints will produce a variety of grey and blue-grey shades.  Most, if not all of these ‘grey schemes’ would have been suitable for use in the prevailing situation on the Channel Front in the latter half of 1940.  It is reasonable to assume therefore that some of these shades were no doubt almost identical to the later 74/75 greys thus leading to the belief in some quarters that this series of colours had been applied to Bf 109s in the summer of 1940.  However, as the use of 74/75/76 was not officially promulgated until the November 1941 issue of L.Dv 521/1[11], it is a wholly convincing possibility that the various greys used during 1940 were those from which they were developed."

 

What  you really  want is "Crashed Enemy Aircraft Reports, and recorded such information as Werk Nummer, engine type, armament, additional or special equipment and often, markings and colours"    for your chosen  subject,  or  find out what  other aircraft in the  unit looked  like.

 

also

 

"The Red Band of JG 53

For a short period during the second half of 1940, all three Gruppen of JG 53, and only JG 53, displayed two distinct anomalies in their markings, the purposes of which have yet to be fully determined with 100% certainty. 

The first case concerns the replacement of the ‘Pik As’[12] emblem.   According to RAF intelligence sources in Air Ministry Weekly Intelligence Summary No.60, the emblem was ordered removed by Hermann Göring and a red band applied in its place, stating that the unit was to become known as the ‘Red Ring Geschwader’.   While there is some evidence to suggest that it may have stemmed from some personal antipathy on the part of Göring, or possibly from some ideological difference with the leadership of the Geschwader[13], the definitive reason for the order has yet to be determined.  In the past, several valid theories for this change have been examined in depth, but most have been subsequently disproven although one, containing some merit, submits that it may have been nothing more than a temporary identification feature. There was however one event which transpired at this time that may have been of some significance.  During early August, at around the time of the appearance of these red bands, Göring replaced the majority of the Jagdwaffe Kommodore with younger men, although two units serving with Luftflotte 3, JG 27 and JG 53, retained their existing Kommodore until October.  Then, after Oblt. Günther von Maltzahn had taken over command of JG 53 from Oblt. Hans-Jürgen von Cramon-Taubadel at the beginning of October, the ‘Pik As’ emblem began to reappear on the Geschwader aircraft in a somewhat newer and larger format than previously seen.  As a matter of interest, the first recorded incident of a Bf 109E being brought down over England where the red band had replaced the ‘Pik As’ emblem occurred on 16 August.  On that date the aircraft of Fw. Christian Hansen of the 2./JG 53 force landed at Godshill on the Isle of Wight and when examined was reported in Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report No.11 of 19 August 1940 as having a “red band around nose 6” wide”.  

 The second case, and one frequently recorded as a political gesture on the part of the Geschwader, occurred almost concurrently with the reintroduction of the ‘Pik As’ emblem. Many aircraft from the II and III Gruppen had the Hakenkreuz on their fins overpainted with several pilots using these areas to display their individual Abschuss tallies rather than in the more usual location on the rudder.  Although some aircraft of the Gruppen did re-apply the Hakenkreuz after a short period of time it was often placed on the rudder rather than in the usual position on the fin.  The period of time that these anomalies with the Hakenkreuz covered is not known for certain but some aircraft of the III./JG 53 were photographically recorded as still without their Hakenkreuz in late November 1940[14].  "

 

 

like here..

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG53-III.html

 

your  subject  of    inquiry...

 

 

interesting colour  shot,   I assume  there  is a  better version  somewhere?  

 

 

 

One  final point,  Aeromaster were  not  called 'errormaster' for  nothing,  they did a  lot of sheets, and they were   not  always well researched. 

 

HTH

[Graham Boak]

Missing from your account of the red band, is that von Cramon-Taubadel was married to a Jew.  You may, if you wish, refer to this as an "ideological difference" with the Luftwaffe High Command, but I think the fuller description helps understanding considerably.

 

As for "Confirmation that this occurred ties in with known practices carried out on Luftwaffe aircraft where a new paint or colour was applied to selected parts of an airframe to test its viability under operational conditions. ", just when and where was this known to have happened other than perhaps in the Condor Legion, at the far end of a somewhat limited supply line?   Examples that have been widely quoted, such as the use of Italian paint in the desert, or JG54's experiments in Russia, have been found to be incorrect.  Such trials existed but with RLM-supplied paints, such as the 1939 trials with 02 on fighters.  I think it far from definite that any freewheeling off-the-cuff experimentation with colours took place on the Channel front.  Changes to camouflage patterns and schemes, yes - colours are another matter.

 

If you think there was considerable variation in the description of greys in the RAF Intelligence reports, look at their references to the greens and blue.  Individual colour perceptions and vocabularies differ, and these reports were not written by qualified artists with a copy of the RLM handbook.

[V Line]

On 12/06/2021 at 13:42, Graham Boak said:

Looks much more like 71/02 to me, in particular a modified scheme from the Battle of France style previously just with a high demarcation and 65 sides. 

I suppose we all have different colour perceptions.

 

I realise it’s a period photo with all that that entails but it looks pretty fresh and clean.

 

I see from your response below to @TroySmith that you severely doubt the use of paints other than the 70/71/65/02 shades.

 

The ‘109 Lair’ article quoted by Troy is, I suggest, a considered analysis. It refers to confirmation from ground crew that mixed greys were used on Me109’s in 1940.

 

As to ‘Battleship Grey’ I should have thought that service personnel in 1940 would have had a good idea of what this colour – a blueish /neutral grey – looked like.

 

Michael Ullman refers to camouflage trials begging in early 1940 (high line scheme) using combinations of  70/71/65/02 on Me 109/110’s. The Luftwaffe were clearly proactive in these matters.

 

Ullman refers to the use of ‘blues and greys’ on Me109’s in 1940 being experimental and test patters which resulted in a standard camouflage (74/75/76) for fighter sand destroyers towards summer 1940. (I think the date is a typo and he means 1941, but this predated the formal instruction issued in November 1941 and not fully circulated until some months later).  

 

I wonder if that colour on the fuselage (including that with the overshading) and that on the drop tank is RLM 65 Hellblau in it’s 1936/1938 iteration or something else? Perhaps you have a view

 

Regarding the ‘red band’, the account cited is that in the ‘109 Lair’ article. Have you a definitive source on the background?

[Graham Boak]

UK battleships were not painted "bluish grey" but a very dark neutral grey.  There is no way that everyone would have any common idea of a precise colour as the term "battleship grey" is entirely colloquial and could mean almost anything.  As indeed can many of the colour references in RAF intelligence reports.  One thing that may be influencing accounts is that camouflage colours are dull and lacking in intensity, by their very nature.  Or, expressed another way, greyed-out.

 

Bear in mind that not all anecdotal evidence is backed up by factual proof.   Else there'd be Spitfires in crates being dug up in Burma. You might equally like to consider the number of He.113s encountered during the Battle of Britain.  Examples can be multiplied.  The red Ta.152 joke?  Black Buck Vulcans painted in Dulux household dark grey bought in Grimsby Woolworths?  Malta-bound Spitfires being repainted in USN ship paints?

 

I am fully aware, and actually did point out in my posting, that the Luftwaffe carried out a number of trials experimenting with paints and schemes, before and during WW2.  I don't "severely doubt" but think it quite possible that they did experiment with greys during the BoB, but don't believe that such paints were made up on the spot locally or, as another theory has it, using captured French paints.  (Which of these two stories are we supposed to believe?)  I do find it somewhat surprising that trials made in mid-1940 didn't see adoption until November 1941: but I suspect this may be a case (as happened at times in the RAF) of official records catching up with practice.

 

The reference to the cause of the red band is in a number of reference works.  Excuse me for not spending my time looking for any one in particular.  You will find it by wider reading in the subject, if you have not yet encountered it.

 

[fishplanebeer]

I'm no expert on this so I will defer to Graham and others but in the Luftwaffe Colours book on the Jagdwaffe 'Battle of Britain- Phase One' it does give an insight as to how the red ring came about.

 

Apparently around early August Goering ordered that that the 'Pik As' badge be replaced with the red ring and that the Geschwader be known as 'Red Ring' with a revised/updated 'Pik As' badge then reappearing again from early October. The first recorded instance of  a Bf109E carrying the red ring was on 16th August when Fw Christian Hansen force landed at Godshill on the Isle of Wight.

 

Regards

Colin.

[fishplanebeer]

Just noticed that on this particular machine the red ring goes all the way round and over the engine cowling where as in all the other photos and artwork I've seen it seems to stop  at the gun troughs so there was clearly some variation in how it was applied.

 

Regards

Colin.

[V Line]

On 14/06/2021 at 21:43, Graham Boak said:

UK battleships were not painted "bluish grey" but a very dark neutral grey.  There is no way that everyone would have any common idea of a precise colour as the term "battleship grey" is entirely colloquial and could mean almost anything.  As indeed can many of the colour references in RAF intelligence reports.  One thing that may be influencing accounts is that camouflage colours are dull and lacking in intensity, by their very nature.  Or, expressed another way, greyed-out.

 

Bear in mind that not all anecdotal evidence is backed up by factual proof.   Else there'd be Spitfires in crates being dug up in Burma. You might equally like to consider the number of He.113s encountered during the Battle of Britain.  Examples can be multiplied.  The red Ta.152 joke?  Black Buck Vulcans painted in Dulux household dark grey bought in Grimsby Woolworths?  Malta-bound Spitfires being repainted in USN ship paints?

 

I am fully aware, and actually did point out in my posting, that the Luftwaffe carried out a number of trials experimenting with paints and schemes, before and during WW2.  I don't "severely doubt" but think it quite possible that they did experiment with greys during the BoB, but don't believe that such paints were made up on the spot locally or, as another theory has it, using captured French paints.  (Which of these two stories are we supposed to believe?)  I do find it somewhat surprising that trials made in mid-1940 didn't see adoption until November 1941: but I suspect this may be a case (as happened at times in the RAF) of official records catching up with practice.

 

The reference to the cause of the red band is in a number of reference works.  Excuse me for not spending my time looking for any one in particular.  You will find it by wider reading in the subject, if you have not yet encountered it.

 

I believe you will find that the RN dark grey did have a blue ingredient at this time. Nevertheless, I agree that the colloquial may be the benchmark to use in this context. Please tell me if a ‘dark neutral grey’ could conceivably match any of RLM 65/70/71/02.

 

It’s rather difficult to compile camouflage detail on aircraft that have dived in from 20,000 ft or so. Any sampling will therefore be limited to largely intact aircraft. The CEAR proforma did not have a specific requirement for colours to be noted and it seems generally they were not. However, my sense is that the reports were compiled diligently and noticeable features were reported. The recording of ‘orange’ as opposed to ‘yellow’ cowling colour of some aircraft (of which there is good photographic evidence) suggests this is the case.

 

I believe here is a pattern of change in the Me 109 schemes and colours that emerges from these reports as published in the ‘Luftwaffe Crash Archive’ volumes.

 

During early September the recorded comments on the 109 include references to greens, slate grey  (probably RLM 02),sky blue, light navy grey (prob. 65 or close)and ‘usual colours’. There are references to mottling which is increasingly evident on photographs. I suggest these reflect the high line schemes with a little variation.

 

Other colours then start to appear.

 

Two shades of grey upper surfaces. 6/9

 

The report on ‘Brown 2’ downed on 15th September clearly refers to ‘battleship grey’ uppersurfaces with  ‘cloudy grey’ fuselage and wings.

 

During late September and through October more variation appears:

 

Blue and green dappled yellow green on upper surface sky blue underneath. 30/9

 

Dappled dark blue and yellow green on upper surfaces, light blue lower. 2/10

 

Grey dapple black, carefully done. 5/10

 

Mottled dark grey and olive green. 15/10

 

Upper surfaces dark green, fuselage sides grey, light blue undersides. 17/10

 

Upper wings darkish grey, fuselage dirty light blue dappled with grey. 27/10

 

By Oct/Nov 1940 there was increasing fighter (109 v Spitfire) activity at circa 30,000 feet in addition to the low level Jabo attacks being undertaken. Both are probably provide good reason to introduce toned down, greyish camouflage schemes.

 

On the matter of the JG53 red band, this has been a long standing discussion point. It seems there is no authoritative answer as to the reason for its’ introduction and the ‘109 Lair’ article is quite correct.

 

It seems there may have been some friction with Goering, who, according to a contemporary RAF intelligence report had ‘suppressed’ the ’Pik As’ badge and ‘special uniform badges.’ Perhaps the white/cowl red  band was a very individualistic tactical identification for a unit that regarded itself highly as it seems JG53 may have seen themselves as a cut above the rest.

 

A further such report is apparently the source of the ‘Jewish wife punishment theory. ‘

 

It has always seemed to me that if true, the marriage of the Unit Commander was not an obstacle to command. The fact that this Officer retained his position to the end of September 1940 and held subsequent staff positions throughout the war (and survived it) does not suggest any such issue.

Furthermore, during early August, at around the time of the appearance of the red band, Goering replaced the majority of the Jagdwaffe Kommodore with younger men, but this man remained in position.

Milch had a Jewish parent and whilst this was ‘finessed’ he was effectively Goering’s deputy for much of the war.

 

Following the fall of France and during 1940, Hitler was probably at the peak of his popularity. Whilst this does not by any means suggest that some individuals did not harbour personal doubts, the idea that an elite military unit could/would flagrantly demonstrate anti-regime sentiments at this, or any other stage of the war is a dubious one. Generally during this period, it seems Luftwaffe pilots believed the war was won.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

    Might be worth searching for a book it was about the 109 in the battle of britain but it was in french by michael payne

   it covered lots of the shot down 109 with photos and profiles 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/messerschmitt-dans-bataille-dAngleterre-109e/dp/273120012X

 

 

many years ago i borrowed it from the local library on inter lib loan 

 

   cheers

      jerry 

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by brewerjerry

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, V Line said:

I believe you will find that the RN dark grey did have a blue ingredient at this time. Nevertheless, I agree that the colloquial may be the benchmark to use in this context. Please tell me if a ‘dark neutral grey’ could conceivably match any of RLM 65/70/71/02.

 

 

There was a certain amount of blue in 507A, B and C  but not very much.  

 

1 hour ago, V Line said:

By Oct/Nov 1940 there was increasing fighter (109 v Spitfire) activity at circa 30,000 feet in addition to the low level Jabo attacks being undertaken. Both are probably provide good reason to introduce toned down, greyish camouflage schemes.

 

 

"probably" = maybe, but also maybe not.  I certainly would not care to argue that low-level jabo attacks would be a reason for changing to greys, which have certainly ever since been regarded as suitable for higher altitude air-to-air.  However, remove the "low-level" and you will have a better description of the kind of missions being flown.  Bombs were generally dropped from higher altitudes with the bomb-carrying 109s acting as surrogates for level bombers unable to survive in UK airspace.  (The much later attacks using mainly Fw.190s were indeed low-level attacks.)

 

However, as I have said above, I do not deny the existence of greys in this period, so there is little point in making any careful selection of the RAF intelligence reports on this point.  What I believe is that, as in later cases in North Africa and Russia, these would have been official experiments  guided from above with experimental German paints, not just any old stuff found lying around available or mixed on the spot. 

 

1 hour ago, V Line said:

Following the fall of France and during 1940, Hitler was probably at the peak of his popularity. Whilst this does not by any means suggest that some individuals did not harbour personal doubts, the idea that an elite military unit could/would flagrantly demonstrate anti-regime sentiments at this, or any other stage of the war is a dubious one. Generally during this period, it seems Luftwaffe pilots believed the war was won.

 

The unit did not just lose their badge in favour of a red band, but also removed the swastika.  I find it  impossible to believe that this was ordered by the Luftwaffe high command.  It is difficult to see it as not being an anti-regime sentiment of some kind.

[fishplanebeer]

I'm absolutely no expert on Luftwaffe colours and my knowledge is therefore limited to the basic/standard schemes that were employed, however I do have some experience in reading official crash reports from downed Luftwaffe aircraft, mostly between 1940 and 1941 so can add the following.

 

These reports were not always accurate, comprehensive or consistent, particularly when it comes to the colour of the aircraft and its code letters as the primary focus of the reports were to identify equipment carried, unit(s) involved and any other items/aspects that may have had some significance or been of interest. Added to which those compiling the reports did not have access to the Luftwaffe RLM colour spec's and so would have used their own colour palette of sorts to interpret what they were seeing. An example being a Heinkel He111 crash where the undersides were described as 'lamp black', a reference I've never come across before but which could equally have been described as simply 'black' or perhaps 'coal black', 'night black' etc.. If such a variation in terms can occur with such a basic primary colour as black the options for shades of green grey etc.. are considerable.

 

I think what I'm saying is that it would be very optimistic or even foolish to attach too much credence and accuracy to the specific colours referred to in these period crash reports beyond them establishing the overall colour scheme and the generic base colours of the aircraft.

 

Regards

Colin.

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, fishplanebeer said:

'lamp black', a reference I've never come across before but which could equally have been described as simply 'black' or perhaps 'coal black', 'night black' etc..

'lamp black' means a very matt black. 

a quick google...

"Lamp Black used to be made from the soot that would accumulate on old oil lamps."  

 

the black used on Luftwaffe bombers in this era was a washable distemper, and was very matt and sooty IIRC, so it was not just 'black' 

eg 

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/11/blitz-heinkel-he-111-kg-4.html

 

"He 111 belonging to IV./KG 4 in Athies sous Laon and displaying a matt black distemper paint finish for night ops during the Blitz during mid-1941. Note the Hakenkreuz (swastika) appears to have to been 'blacked-out'. These images depict an unnamed crew being feted with flowers following their return from a milestone flight. Note the Kapok life jacket. Click on the picture to see the full image and the painted-out cross on the lower wing.."

from @FalkeEins great Luftwaffe blog.

 

So, 'lamp black'  is less vague than it seems.

HTH

[72modeler]

On 6/12/2021 at 3:45 AM, FatFlyHalf said:

I found this in my Interwebbing......

That's a very interesting photo, as I also think the upper surface of the wings were 71/02; the fuselage camouflage is very interesting, as well-  looks like very dense mottling that appears almost solid. Another point is that the photo clearly shows the drooped  ailerons that were linked to flap deployment. You can also see  the RLM 65 that was covered by  the missing wing fillet- makes me think the fuselage was painted RLM 65 at the factory before the wings were mounted, which would be easy on the 109, as the landing gear were attached to the fuselage, and the  dense camouflage mottling was applied later. Good luck on your project.

Mike

[V Line]

17 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

'lamp black' means a very matt black. 

a quick google...

"Lamp Black used to be made from the soot that would accumulate on old oil lamps."  

 

the black used on Luftwaffe bombers in this era was a washable distemper, and was very matt and sooty IIRC, so it was not just 'black' 

eg 

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/11/blitz-heinkel-he-111-kg-4.html

 

"He 111 belonging to IV./KG 4 in Athies sous Laon and displaying a matt black distemper paint finish for night ops during the Blitz during mid-1941. Note the Hakenkreuz (swastika) appears to have to been 'blacked-out'. These images depict an unnamed crew being feted with flowers following their return from a milestone flight. Note the Kapok life jacket. Click on the picture to see the full image and the painted-out cross on the lower wing.."

from @FalkeEins great Luftwaffe blog.

 

So, 'lamp black'  is less vague than it seems.

HTH

I think a clear example of the Investigator adopting a clear and simple term to accurately describe what he has seen. Ullman refers to the ‘sooty finish’ of the (temporary) black paint.

 

I think it worth bearing in mind that these people were not laymen, but members of the RAF air intelligence Branch. One presumes they became extremely familiar with the appearance of Luftwaffe aircraft and would notice and record obvious changes.

 

Whatever the precise shades the blue/battleship grey/grey dapple black/mottled dark grey/darkish grey reported within the CAER’s were exactly, it stretches credulity to match them with plain vanilla RLM 70/71 or 02, which with shade 65, were the only officially listed camouflage paints.

 

Whether they were mixed paints or experimental (blue and or grey) shades as Ullman suggests, is a moot point. Perhaps both applied. Whatever the answer, it appears grey shades other than 02 were increasingly applied from around late September/October 1940.

 

On the subject of the JG53 red bands and the Swastika, there are photos of ‘red band’ E’s with Swastikas clearly evident and others with the marking painted over. Molders, (an alleged regime doubter in time) had the tail making very clearly displayed on his ‘E,’ shot down in October under control of a different pilot. I doubt the true explanation for the obscuring of this marking on certain aircraft will ever be known but very much doubt it was a sign of active regime opposition, a most dangerous act.(Edit -Molders was at this time Commander of KG51and the aircraft was of that unit).

Edited June 27, 2021 by V Line
Clarification

[Nick Nichols]

On 6/16/2021 at 6:03 AM, fishplanebeer said:

I'm no expert on this so I will defer to Graham and others but in the Luftwaffe Colours book on the Jagdwaffe 'Battle of Britain- Phase One' it does give an insight as to how the red ring came about.

 

Apparently around early August Goering ordered that that the 'Pik As' badge be replaced with the red ring and that the Geschwader be known as 'Red Ring' with a revised/updated 'Pik As' badge then reappearing again from early October. The first recorded instance of  a Bf109E carrying the red ring was on 16th August when Fw Christian Hansen force landed at Godshill on the Isle of Wight.

 

Regards

Colin.

"Apparently at the end of July 1940 - an order reached the Geschwader which was received with some lack of understanding and not a little irritation: the order decreed that wearing of the Geschwader emblem - the "Ace of Spades" - on the unit's aircraft was forbidden as of that date. Unfortunately, neither the name of the office that issued the order nor its contents have survived; all that is known is that the "Ace of Spades" emblem disappeared from the unit's aircraft and for a time was replaced by a narrow, approximately 25-centimeter-wide, red band around the engine cowling...  The "Ace of Spades” emblem was reinstated on 20 November 1940 and could once again appear on the engine cowlings of the Geschwader’s aircraft. The official reason for the reintroduction of the emblem was the 500th victory by the Geschwader." - (c) Jochen Prien, "Jagdgeschwader 53: A History of the "Pik As" Geschwader Vol.1"