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2-cannon Hurricane IIc's in Libya


Scott Hemsley

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I'm specifically referring to those of 417 Sqn. (RCAF), but I guess the question can apply to any MTO Hurricane IIc that had the outer 2 cannons removed,  Does anyone know if the unused shell ejector chutes were either plugged up or covered by a cloth patch & then doped over to prevent debris accumulating inside the wing  ... or just left opened?

 

Scott

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Hi Scott,

 

        I don't know if these are of sufficient quality to tell for sure. I've scanned them out of Michael Lavigne's Hurricanes over the Sands Part One.

 

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Thanks for scanning those and based on the photos, the 'unused' shell ejector chute appears to be left open.  However, looking at the staining emanating from the unused chute, I'd guess that it's a result of use prior to the removal of the outer cannon?

 

 

Scott

Edited by Scott Hemsley
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The Yugoslav PARTISAN 351 sq Hurricane Mk.IIc had one gun wing each

when they were schooled in Libya.For shooting exercises.

 

Samo

 

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Hello, Scott

In Don Minterne's book The history of 73 Squadron, part 3, it is mentioned, that during summer of 1942 on specially modified high altitude Hurricanes of 94 Sqn.: "... We doped fabric patches over all the openings not required between flights, and the whole machine was gone over with locally-made floor polish. ...", apart from removing outer guns, armour plate, tropical filter etc. Incidentally, modified Hurricanes could reach 37.000 ft and a pair of these machines caught one of the Junkers over Nile delta. However, I do not think they bothered with patching up chutes of empty gun compartments on regular basis. There is no mentioning about this practice in sortie reports, although they usually include specifics like numbers of rounds per gun fired etc. Cheers
Jure

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Hello, Graham

No, the first one was IIc BP563/D, flown by Sqn.  L. Donald Scott, who contributed a passage to above mentioned book: "After my initial flight to 37.000 we modified quite a few more before two of our pilots caught a Ju 86 P and chased it south to Cairo where they shot it down.". He keeps referring to the aircraft as IIc. He also mentions, that things were fine as long as Keith Park was in command (his is quoted to say "Highly irregular, but bloody good show"), but with the new AOC ME in place command to revert back to four guns configuration came almost immediately. Nevertheless, Scott ordered to put outer cannons in the wings when plane went into maintenance, but not to fasten them. When planes were ready to fly, guns had been removed again.

On 20th March 1941 Pat Wells, at the time on 249 Sqn. at North Weald got as high as 38.500 ft. with Hurricane IIb with only eight out of twelve .303 installed. He attempted to reach 40.000 ft, but towards the end the aircraft's climb was so slow, that he gave up.

In the same book it is mentioned, that in another book, Mike Crosley's "They gave me Seafire" there is a reference that he and another pilot flew factory fresh Hurricanes IIc to 35.000 ft. It was not particularly pleasant experience, though: "We were frozen stiff and could only manage an indicated air speed of 85 knots, flat out." Cheers

Jure

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Given the effort made to lighten and disarm Spitfire Mk.Vs to catch the Ju.86P/Rs, getting one with a Hurricane loaded down with two Hispanos was quite some achievement.  By suggesting a modified Mk.IIb, I was imagining more than just the four outer guns removed - they tended to be removed anyway.

 

I would suggest that "openings not required between flights" would have included the ejection slots on non-existent guns.

 

Sir Keith Park was AOC Malta at this time, at least as far as the fighters were concerned, so there seems to have been a little confusion there.

 

I don't have my old charts handy, but 85 kts indicated was probably still covering a fair bit of ground in True Ground Speed, but a bit uncomfortably close to the stall.

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Between Sept. 42 and Jan. 43, 417 Sqn. flew the Hurricane IIc in Egypt, thus making them the only RCAF squadron to fly the type.  There is a PR-style in-flight photo of a standard 4-cannon 417 Sqn. Hurricane IIc coded AN*N **), showing that for a period (however short), the squadron did operate the Hurricane IIc in a 4-cannon configuration., I also have a few shots (from a personal album which unfortunately I've been asked not to share) of the squadron's 2-cannon Hurricanes as used on ops.  From the photos, it's clear that the outer cannons were not just simply removed, but the outer cannon fairings were also removed and faired over.  I'm unaware at which point the squadron made change from 4-cannon to 2-cannon configuration, but a couple of these photos show multiple aircraft in formation  which implies this was a squadron-wide mod. 

 

I've not read nor heard of any high-altitude missions under-taken by the squadron, leading me to conclude that the change in armament was possibly enacted as a weight saving measure given the range of their operational commitments. 

 

** Sept.13 42 F/S J.H.G Leguerrier, flying AN*N (s/n. HL891) from a patrol from Shandur, Egypt - intercepted and destroyed a JU.88 southeast of the town of Suez. 

 

Scott

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Not just weight for its value on performance, climb and acceleration as well as range, but also because having heavy weights outboard makes an aircraft clumsy in roll and yaw, unwelcome handling characteristics in a fighter.

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On 6/12/2021 at 10:11 AM, Scott Hemsley said:

 From the photos, it's clear that the outer cannons were not just simply removed, but the outer cannon fairings were also removed and faired over.  I'm unaware at which point the squadron made change from 4-cannon to 2-cannon configuration, but a couple of these photos show multiple aircraft in formation  which implies this was a squadron-wide mod.

Scott

Yup. Sheet metal by the looks of it. Don't know if it was riveted or screwed.

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There is some footage of 33 Squadron Hurricanes with the two cannon setup in this IWM film taken in Libya dated December 1942:

 

https://film.iwmcollections.org.uk/record/41432

 

Go to about 3:20 and you can see the patches where the outer cannon were. About 15 seconds further on a Hurricane taxies over the cameraman showing the underside. The ejection slots aren't visible although there seems to be a darker patch about where they would be. You can also make out the lugs and outline of where the tanks were fitted. If you jump to about 6:40 the Hurricanes are seen landing at (presumably) their new base; as RS-Q HL65? passes you can see the outer bulges are still there on the upper surface. 

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

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