Radiation on an Aircraft

[dov]

Hallo

A question which is totally open and unsolved to me:

 

Radiation on an aircraft.

 

After a flight cycle, just for a civil airliner. Let say after 9 hours flight in 40 000 ft.

Is the high altitude radiation still there after landing or not?

Which amount of radiation is it?

 

More specific:

 

Which doses of radiation must an aircrew absorb?

What is the standard international?

The other question:

 

A military aircraft.

 

For example returning from war. As it was the 2nd Gulf War, returning Tornados.

If I am stenciling military aircraft, so I often have to handle radiation stencils. Mig-27, Intruder, Prowler etc.

Is this radiation stenciling for electro magnetic radiation? Which radiation is it? And which amount?

If we have an military aircraft in a museum, do we have still radiation on it?

Or is it totally safe?

The gun, when using uranium projectiles is also a hot part.

Does anybody have a clue about it?

 

Happy modelling

[EwenS]

This might help

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aircrew/cosmicionizingradiation.html

 

All you want to know about depleted uranium is available on Wiki. As the name suggests it is less radioactive than naturally occurring uranium. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

 

And if you want something else to worry about don’t forget about the use of radium right through into the post WW2 period in aircraft instruments.

https://theaviationist.com/special-reports/radioactive-materials-in-flight-instruments/

 

Also, don’t forget that radars emit “radiation” that is harmful to humans if you get too close. There are lots of stories around from the earlier days of radar of radar techies cooking sausages in the radar waveguide feeds. And from there comes you everyday microwave oven.

[Jure Miljevic]

Yes, and in one of the museums around here radiation danger signs has been put on some exhibition pieces to warn visitors about radium in military vehicle instrument. That was not their idea, it has been done on orders of enviromental inspector.

Another story says that if MiG-25 pilot forgot to switch off radar before landing, afterwards ground personel may have found dead rabbits near runway. The most questionable element in this tale are apparently deaf rabbits, sitting peacefully near the runway and watching 30 or so ton jets thundering by. Cheers

Jure

[Sabrejet]

IIRC we used mildly radioactive balance weights in helicopter rotor blades. There are plenty of nasties hidden in aircraft which are more offensive to the body than radiation from instruments etc. Beryllium in various parts is another I've often wondered about. We used to be told to wash hands thorouhgly after touching Beryllium, but that was only if you followed the task in the T.O. or A.P. Many folks would have been oblivious I'm sure.

[EwenS]

42 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

Yes, and in one of the museums around here radiation danger signs has been put on some exhibition pieces to warn visitors about radium in military vehicle instrument. That was not their idea, it has been done on orders of enviromental inspector.

Another story says that if MiG-25 pilot forgot to switch off radar before landing, afterwards ground personel may have found dead rabbits near runway. The most questionable element in this tale are apparently deaf rabbits, sitting peacefully near the runway and watching 30 or so ton jets thundering by. Cheers

Jure

You would be surprised what wildlife will put up with. They work on the principle that after a while they get used to it and if it isn’t coming after them, no need to bug out.

[Stu_davros]

Not just military aircraft, Hawker 125s had depleted uranium mass balances I think.

Radiation in flight is cosmic radiation, much higher at altitude than on the ground. Again 125s had interior insulation with a lead content to absorb some of it (although I think it was unecessary).

I seem to recall Concorde had a cosmic radiation detector as it flew at 70k ft, the suns solar flares have a big effect on cosmic radiation levels. At normal flight levels the aluminium skin of the aircraft is all the shielding you need (stops alpha and beta radiation).

[Dr. Quack]

Concorde crew and passengers were certainly exposed to higher doses of cosmic radiation than those flying in lower altitude airframes, but their flight time was faster and their exposure time therefore shorter, so it sort of evened out. Many years since I studied this sort of stuff, and not really my area of expertise these days......sorry not to be more helpful.

 

Military aircraft flying at very high altitude may fly a longer flight profile, of course - high reconnaissance planes like the SR-71, U-2 and even Canberra spring to mind. I would need to try to dig out my old notes and references to remind myself of their specific shielding / crew protection measures etc, and I'm not sure if I've even still got them buried in the loft. If I track down anything interesting or nerdy I'll post it up.

 

Quack of the ageing brain.

[Dr. Quack]

Right......a bit more info which may interest you (I hope)

Firstly - I don't think aircraft bring radiation back to ground level ie they are not seriously 'contaminated' by high level flight, and they are safe to handle for ground crews. Aircraft are exposed to background cosmic / galactic radiation and also to solar radiation.

Cosmic radiation diminishes closer to ground level through stratospheric absorption, and also due to magnetic deflection - which is significant at the equator, and negligible at the Earth's poles, so broadly speaking low altitude radiation at the poles is about double that at the equator. For this reason, polar flights are theoretically more hazardous than equatorial journeys.

 

Sticking with Concorde for now - the galactic radiation at Concorde's usual cruising altitude of about 60,000feet (18288m) would be roughly double that encountered by a subsonic commercial flight at 40,000ft (12190m). 

In 1991 the International Commission on Radiation Protection advised a whole body exposure limit of 20mSv for workers and 1mSv for the general public.

Concorde could not carry heavy radiation shielding because of the weight penalty so a radiation detector (Gamma radiation and Neutrons) was fitted near the top of the hull and the output monitored on the flight-deck. An amber warning would appear if the dose rate was greater than 0.1mSv per hour, and a red warning if the dose rate was greater than 0.5mSv per hour - the red warning would trigger a mandatory descent. As far as I know Concorde never had to reduce altitude in response to a radiation hazard warning. The average dose encountered by Concorde was 0.011mSv / hour (data from 1976-1983) ie safe!!

 

For higher travelling space flight crews, NASA set a total dose limit of 4Sv for deep body tissues (bone marrow) and 12 Sv at the skin surface - this limit was usually reached after about 90-120 days of spaceflight. Solar radiation originates from the Sun ie much closed to Earth and is extremely variable, the intensity varying with solar activity. For what it's worth, EVAs (space-walks) are usually planned and timed to avoid times of high activity!  

Vehicle shielding has never been fully effective and cannot practically reduce radiation levels to those on the Earth's surface as the atmosphere provides radiation protection equivalent to about 1 metre of lead!!

 

As mentioned in my previous post - it's been a long time since I was actively involved in this stuff, and my notes are now about 30 years old, so some details like dose limits may well have changed. I'd be most interested if anybody else could provide better info.

 

Sorry for rambling a bit

 

Take care all.

Q 

[dov]

Here one story my friend told me:

 

He was commander on a civil airliner.

He used the weather radar for take off and landing to prevent bird strike.

Long before the landing in the Hudson River.

 

For me it all became interesting some years ago:

On my first trip to contaminated areas in Hiroshima, I wanted to get an idea bout the present radiation there.

I had no chance to get any information.

After Fukoshima, I wanted to get an idea what present-day radiation is in Tokyo area.

I also failed to get valid information.

 

On many visits in museum with military aircraft, I wandered, if there is any still active radiation onboard.

Even today’s military aircraft like a Eurofighter, a Grippen, a Rafale…

What about nuclear weapons on board?

Since I have too less information, I want to ask.

Oh, what about the radiation around Las Vegas?

Not too far from the famous test site?

 

Happy modelling

[Graham Boak]

Any radiation threat from museum aircraft will be from the radium paint on luminescent dials, in which case the cockpits will not be accessible for visitors.   Modern tactical aircraft do not carry nuclear weapons.

 

Geiger counters are fairly readily available if you wish to buy one.  There is a tiny residual radiation everywhere due to the nuclear tests, which is why armour plate from salvaged warships is valuable for creating highly sensitive enclosed spaces.  The highest normal levels of radiation will be found in areas of granite, but a lifetime living in a house in such an area is not threatening.

 

I strongly suspect that no-one will be allowed anywhere near any residual radiation threats from test sites.

[Dr. Quack]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Any radiation threat from museum aircraft will be from the radium paint on luminescent dials,

Agreed. In fact the UK Ministry of Defence has just started cleaning up the beach at Dalgety Bay on the East coast of Scotland. The beach is contaminated with radioactive particles, probably as a result of aircraft scrappage operations. The area is close to the site of the former RAF / Fleet Air Arm station at Donibristle which closed in 1959.

Q

[alt-92]

22 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I strongly suspect that no-one will be allowed anywhere near any residual radiation threats from test sites.

You can dive around the Bravo & Castle sites...

[Paul Thompson]

21 hours ago, Dr. Quack said:

Agreed. In fact the UK Ministry of Defence has just started cleaning up the beach at Dalgety Bay on the East coast of Scotland. The beach is contaminated with radioactive particles, probably as a result of aircraft scrappage operations. The area is close to the site of the former RAF / Fleet Air Arm station at Donibristle which closed in 1959.

Q

    I can see the clean up in progress from here, a couple of hundred yards away. 2 sources of radium were the culprits - firstly from repainting dials during  maintenance: the empty bottles were incinerated and used as landfill with other stuff. Later, as the base became largely concerned with scrapping, it was whole instruments incinerated and likewise dumped. The main problem is that burning stuff up results in radium in the ash being concentrated. Still might not have been a problem but  burial occured in areas where the rock armor deteriorated over the years (zero maintenance since the base was closed and the town built on the site) and the ash has eroded out onto the beach in varied places, but mostly at the local sailing club,

 

Paul.

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

 

I used to fly in maritime patrol role. Older chaps at the squadron told us newbies that one should always keep the landing lights on when over the sea; especially at low altitudes. That was to scare the birds. It didn't work. Same story with the WX radar. Some pilots trusted on these tricks and were adamant about their use. We had a powerful search radar rotating 360 degrees and running all the time. On one mission two wild geese hit the aircraft. One hit the port windscreen edge and then slipped into the propeller and finally ended inside the aircraft landing on navigator's desk.

 

Later on I was flying in the geophysical survey role at 100 ft AGL. We never used landing lights on these missions. But a guy at the university gave us an important lesson about the birds. What do they do when they are frightened of something? They close their wings and drop towards the ground. So a pilot must always start a climb early enough when seeing a bird in front. If you hesitate, you will hit the poor thing.

 

Then there were some other hazards as well, like the Russian way for snow and ice removal on airports in Siberia. They simply soaked the apron with jet fuel spraying it from a fuel truck. At low temperatures (-50 C) it turned the snow into rubber like slush and caused havoc on aircraft tires. You can also imagine the smell. And they kidnapped our beloved teddy bear! Never to be seen again.

 

Years ago we decided to buy a few instruments taken from a Lancaster bomber (ebay wasn't even invited yet). After a few weeks local customs office contacted us and asking about the parcel that had arrived from UK as it was a radiation hazard. Little did we know about those luminescent dials... So the instruments returned to England, me and my friend didn't get even a glimpse of them.

 

 

Cheers,

Antti

[junglierating]

Right so this thread has gone a bit bonkers original question was about exposure to cosmic radiation in flight.

Plenty of peer reviewed scientific articles on that....generally the exposure risk is negligible.

Please check for yourself.

As for radiation hazards on aircraft well for UK military aircraft these are listed in the MF700 leading particulars as well as other significant risks to health.

As for DP Uranium shells....they went in the bin.😬

[Graham Boak]

The original poster extended the matter to other areas.  Presumably he was either satisfied with the answers he'd got, or satisfied that he wasn't going to get answers he found adequate/appropriate.  There are plenty of threads that do go astray, but this one doesn't seem to have strayed at all from questions asked by the original poster.

[junglierating]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

The original poster extended the matter to other areas.  Presumably he was either satisfied with the answers he'd got, or satisfied that he wasn't going to get answers he found adequate/appropriate.  There are plenty of threads that do go astray, but this one doesn't seem to have strayed at all from questions asked by the original poster.

Hmm fair enough 

[bentwaters81tfw]

Speaking of instrumentation.  A veteran of the 'Bl**dy Hundredth' Bomb Group was back at Thorpe Abbots for a visit. This guy was in his nineties.

He was taken to the American Air Museum hangar at DX, where his hosts got permission for him to go inside the B-17, with a 15 minute time limit due to radium exposure.

 

The old pilot informed the staff member that he had some 800 hours operational flying time on B-17s. A few extra minutes were unlikely to have any further detrimental effects.

 

[Black Knight]

A friend of my mother got cancer in her mouth and jaw. She had worked in an instrument factory painting the dials. She used to put the paintbrush between her lips to wet the tip and bring it to a point after a rinsing, but it was still contaminated with radiation

[Dr. Quack]

On 6/9/2021 at 9:42 PM, Black Knight said:

A friend of my mother got cancer in her mouth and jaw. She had worked in an instrument factory painting the dials. She used to put the paintbrush between her lips to wet the tip and bring it to a point after a rinsing, but it was still contaminated with radiation

This was remarkably common - particularly amongst women working in watch factories in Switzerland. It is still possible to identify some of their graves simply by using a Geiger counter.

Apologies if I am encouraging off-topic discussion.

Q

Who has probably said more than enough now and promises to sit nicely on his naughty step.

[noelh]

On 6/8/2021 at 10:22 AM, dov said:

Hallo

A question which is totally open and unsolved to me:

 

Radiation on an aircraft.

 

After a flight cycle, just for a civil airliner. Let say after 9 hours flight in 40 000 ft.

Is the high altitude radiation still there after landing or not?

Which amount of radiation is it?

 

More specific:

 

Which doses of radiation must an aircrew absorb?

What is the standard international?

 

I would suggest checking out https://www.pprune.org

 

I've seen it discussed there before it being of obvious interest to working pilots. 

[dov]

Oh, looked at, but did not find the discossion on this topic. Can you lead me?

[noelh]

1 hour ago, dov said:

Oh, looked at, but did not find the discossion on this topic. Can you lead me?

Did a quick search and these, mostly archived appeared. Plenty of reading. 

 

https://www.pprune.org/search.php?do=showgcs&query=Radiation

Edited June 11, 2021 by noelh

[Jay Gee]

On 08/06/2021 at 18:52, dov said:

Hallo

A question which is totally open and unsolved to me:

 

Radiation on an aircraft.

 

After a flight cycle, just for a civil airliner. Let say after 9 hours flight in 40 000 ft.

Is the high altitude radiation still there after landing or not?

Which amount of radiation is it?

 

More specific:

 

Which doses of radiation must an aircrew absorb?

What is the standard international?

The other question:

 

A military aircraft.

 

For example returning from war. As it was the 2nd Gulf War, returning Tornados.

If I am stenciling military aircraft, so I often have to handle radiation stencils. Mig-27, Intruder, Prowler etc.

Is this radiation stenciling for electro magnetic radiation? Which radiation is it? And which amount?

If we have an military aircraft in a museum, do we have still radiation on it?

Or is it totally safe?

The gun, when using uranium projectiles is also a hot part.

Does anybody have a clue about it?

 

Happy modelling

For the original question. There will be no radiation remaining on the aircraft, but the aircrew will get a small dose. The link below from ARPANSA (Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency) has a table showing how many flights you need to get 1mSV. Interestingly for 1mSv dose you need to fly Melbourne - Singapore - London 15 times. BUT you need 23 flights of London - Singapore - Melbourne to get 1mSv. 

https://www.arpansa.gov.au/understanding-radiation/radiation-sources/more-radiation-sources/flying-and-health

 

You will get more radiation walking through the airport form full body scanners, metal detectors etc. 

 

Regarding the stenciling for other types of radiation, these will be for Radiofrequency Radiation (RF), Electromagnetic Field Radiation (EMF) or Ultraviolet Radiation (UV). 

[Chimpion]

Ionising radiation is radiation with enough energy to knock electrons out of atoms. These can have consequences for biochemistry and electronics but does not make the atoms radioactive, so landed planes are safe. To make the atoms radioactive the radiation will need to cause changes in the atomic nucleus.