RidgeRunner Posted June 14, 2021 Author Share Posted June 14, 2021 Thanks Giorgio and Werner @Giorgio N @exdraken so, I wasn’t wrong in the first place :). I can see the engine differences clearly. I have been offered an engine conversion too!!! Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Moura Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Dears, my itention is this version... biggest Canopy. So, I think that is so difficult of the other version. 😔 https://www.laahs.com/the-sukhoi-su-22-in-peruvian-service/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 20 hours ago, Claudio Moura said: Dears, my itention is this version... biggest Canopy. So, I think that is so difficult of the other version. 😔 https://www.laahs.com/the-sukhoi-su-22-in-peruvian-service/ This is a Su-22M3 with the R29 engine. The rear fuselage is largely the same as on the other export models used in Peru, see comments above! The front part / dropped nose / canopy is the same as any Su-17M3/M4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claudio Moura Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, exdraken said: This is a Su-22M3 with the R29 engine. The rear fuselage is largely the same as on the other export models used in Peru, see comments above! The front part / dropped nose / canopy is the same as any Su-17M3/M4 Thanks!!!!!!🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modelldoc Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 These are early kit for a Su-22 from Hobbycraft: https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/13383337333/in/photolist-moD6Vp and a Suchoj from Mistercraft: Suchoj Su-20 R4 https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/15761519573/in/photolist-t6KRKA-t8Sgfy-t8Sgfd-t6KRKq-q1MUDt-iekm7f-oo5k5j-9eCEA5-9cdnd4 modelldoc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 17, 2021 Author Share Posted December 17, 2021 Hi all, I’m resurrecting this thread in the hope of getting enough ideas on how to get an AL-21F-engined machine from my Modelsvit Su-20M-2 kit (72020). I think my earlier idea for a Peruvian build could be too problematic so how about a Polish machine? Would the Modelsvit kit need the engine mod? It certainly wouldn’t need the nose surgery that the Peruvian would need. The Modelsvit kit includes decals for a Polish example but I wonder if they are simply suggesting you apply Polish marks to an Su-17M-2 fuselage? Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Martin Edit: my idea would be to build ‘6252’ of the Polish Air Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 https://www.scalemates.com/de/kits/modelsvit-72020-su-20--997046 If that is your kit, it already comes with Polish markings! Those are fine!! https://www.super-hobby.de/zdjecia/2/1/4/15637_1_msv72020_9.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 18, 2021 Author Share Posted December 18, 2021 3 hours ago, exdraken said: https://www.scalemates.com/de/kits/modelsvit-72020-su-20--997046 If that is your kit, it already comes with Polish markings! Those are fine!! https://www.super-hobby.de/zdjecia/2/1/4/15637_1_msv72020_9.jpg So the rear end is correct for a Polish machine,? If it is, it could also be okay for a Peruvian Werner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 18 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said: So the rear end is correct for a Polish machine,? If it is, it could also be okay for a Peruvian Werner No, all Polish machines had the AL-21 engine. All Peruvian aircraft were R29 powered. Poland initially received 26 Su-20 and Su-20R. Your kit represents one of these aircraft that were "export" variants of the Su-17M, retaining the original engine. Later Poland received the Su-22M4, that was the export variant of the 17M4, again retaining the same engine. Peru received the Su-22 and the Su-22M, export variants of the Su-17M2 and M3 respectively but with R29 engine. In general a Su-20 retains the AL-21 engine and a Su-22 is powered by the R29, with the exception of the Su-22M4 (and the UM3K) as by the time this was introduced the reasons for a different engine had gone and it was easier to keep the same AL-21 on all production. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 18, 2021 Author Share Posted December 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, Giorgio N said: No, all Polish machines had the AL-21 engine. All Peruvian aircraft were R29 powered. Poland initially received 26 Su-20 and Su-20R. Your kit represents one of these aircraft that were "export" variants of the Su-17M, retaining the original engine. Later Poland received the Su-22M4, that was the export variant of the 17M4, again retaining the same engine. Peru received the Su-22 and the Su-22M, export variants of the Su-17M2 and M3 respectively but with R29 engine. In general a Su-20 retains the AL-21 engine and a Su-22 is powered by the R29, with the exception of the Su-22M4 (and the UM3K) as by the time this was introduced the reasons for a different engine had gone and it was easier to keep the same AL-21 on all production. Excellent, Giorgio :). Thanks for that. So I will stick to a Polish machine for the Su-20. My challenge will come when - one day - I decide to build my Su-17M-3. I really want it to be a Peruvian :). Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 You 3 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: My challenge will come when - one day - I decide to build my Su-17M-3. I really want it to be a Peruvian :). The devil sticks in the detail! Su-20 vs Su-22, Su-17 vs Su-22... You simply can't correctly build a Peruian Su-22 with a Al-21 engine... and Su-17Ms have such... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 On 6/16/2021 at 10:15 AM, modelldoc said: These are early kit for a Su-22 from Hobbycraft Wich is even cruder and less accurate than the Panters / Mistercraft etc. molds. Ask me how I know. Cheers, Andre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Maas Posted December 19, 2021 Share Posted December 19, 2021 6 hours ago, Hook said: Wich is even cruder and less accurate than the Panters / Mistercraft etc. molds. Ask me how I know. Cheers, Andre It says Hobbycraft on the box? 😉 Crude and inaccurate is what they were known for....But usually the only option in plastic for the type when tooled (and still the case for their Avro Canada CF-100 and CF-105) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 (edited) Do the Hobbyboss 1/48 scale Sukhoi Su-17M4 and the Sukhoi Su-17UM3 have the correct fuselage for the Lyulka AL-21? Thank you very much Saluti Giampiero Edited December 20, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 20, 2021 Share Posted December 20, 2021 35 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: Do the Hobbyboss 1/48 scale Sukhoi Su-17M4 and the Sukhoi Su-17UM3 have the correct fuselage for the Lyulka AL-21? yes, as do all other 1/48 kits (KH Su-17 and Su-22, Kopro/ KP/ SMER/ Eduard Su-17/22) nobody cared yet to do the R29 engined versions in 1/48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 So back to my question: This Su-17/20/22 things is a mine field! @Giorgio N @exdraken @Hook If I want to build a Peruvian Su-22 I should be looking at the S-32M2K profile in 3-view drawings? This has the R29, long nose etc. I am still a little confused because Yefim Gordon refers to the Peruvian Su-22 (not the final variant with the bigger canopy) as the Su-22 Sans Suffixe. To me that has a different rear end, or am I missing something? I am so confused!!! This is what I'd like to build: https://www.airfighters.com/photo/248215/M/Peru-Air-Force/Sukhoi-Su-22-Fitter-F/022/ Thank you chaps, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) The Sukhoi Su-7 has a Lyulka AL-7 (The AL-21 engine is based on the AL-7).Would it be possible to combine a Sukhoi Su-7 kit with the spine of a Mistercraft Sukhoi Su-20 model?I built the Sukhoi S-32 export Fighter prototype with fixed wing in 1/48 using a Sukhoi Su-7 and have scratch built the spine using plastic tube. Saluti Giampiero Edited December 21, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) The one in the picture is indeed an S-32M2K, meaning the "commercial" (export) variant of the Su-17M2 (S_32M2). So yes, for this aircraft the S-32M2K is the one to look for... assuming that the drawings you have are correct. To identify the type of engine, I suggest to look at the cooling intakes on the mid-rear fuselage section: the AL21 engined variants have two intakes close to each other, roughly midway up the fuselage, as in the picture below of a Soviet Su-17M3 https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su17_02.jpg The R29 engined variants also have two intakes per side, but they are farther apart, one toward the rear just a bit higher than the tailplanes and one forward and high up the fuselage, like in this Peruvian Su-22 https://www.airfighters.com/photo/248269/M/Peru-Air-Force/Sukhoi-Su-22-Fitter-F/162/ The two pictures are also useful to compare the shape of the rear fuselage, notice how in the Peruvian aircraft the section increases up to roughly the tailplanes pivot point and then decreases sharply. On the Soviet aircraft on the other hand the rear fuselage tapers gently through the whole length Edited December 21, 2021 by Giorgio N 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: The Sukhoi Su-7 has a Lyulka AL-7 (The AL-21 engine is based on the AL-7).Would it be possible to combine a Sukhoi Su-7 kit with the spine of a Mistercraft Sukhoi Su-20 model? Saluti Giampiero Depends on what you want to achieve. The Mastercraft fuselage shape is closer to the R29 variant but the intakes are those for the AL21, I would have to check if adding a Su-7 rear fuselage section could work, but I would find this not particularly useful as a better AL21 engined Su-17 rear fuselage can be found in the Modelsvit or Italeri/Bilek kits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 1 hour ago, RidgeRunner said: This Su-17/20/22 things is a mine field! @Giorgio N @exdraken @Hook If I want to build a Peruvian Su-20 I should be looking at the S-32M2K profile in 3-view drawings? This has the R29, long nose etc. I am still a little confused because Yefim Gordon refers to the Peruvian Su-22 (not the final variant with the bigger canopy) as the Su-22 Sans Suffixe. To me that has a different rear end, or am I missing something? I am so confused!!! This is what I'd like to build: https://www.airfighters.com/photo/248215/M/Peru-Air-Force/Sukhoi-Su-22-Fitter-F/022/ yes, it is a mine field! but again, you are mixing up Su-20 and Su-22, at least in you text! The picture above shows a Su-22 with the R29 engine. (fatter, and abit shorter rear fuselage, as to Giorgios message above! you can also have a look at the unpainted metal ring at the rear. but to be frank: if you do not see the difference, you can put your Peruian decals all Fitters you like! (but do not expect everybody else not to note itt!) The canopy style in another topic altogether! All single seat (and also twoseaters ) form the M3 version upwards have what you describe a the "bigger canopy" and related drooping nose/ intake, irrespective of Su-17 or Su-22! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, exdraken said: yes, it is a mine field! but again, you are mixing up Su-20 and Su-22, at least in you text! The picture above shows a Su-22 with the R29 engine. (fatter, and abit shorter rear fuselage, as to Giorgios message above! you can also have a look at the unpainted metal ring at the rear. but to be frank: if you do not see the difference, you can put your Peruian decals all Fitters you like! (but do not expect everybody else not to note itt!) The canopy style in another topic altogether! All single seat (and also twoseaters ) form the M3 version upwards have what you describe a the "bigger canopy" and related drooping nose/ intake, irrespective of Su-17 or Su-22! Oops, I have corrected my post. It is the variant that I have shown in the link. Yefim Gordon calls this the Su-22 Sans Suffixe. Thanks to Giorgio's @Giorgio N confirmation, this is the S-32M2K. :). So, if I get a solution for the rear end I can use the nose intake from the Mistercraft (not ideal but the best option available) plus some internals using resin aftermarket for the Su-7/17/22 for the cone etc. THe intake ring might also provide a nice crsip edge at the front too? 🤞 Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said: Oops, I have corrected my post. It is the variant that I have shown in the link. Yefim Gordon calls this the Su-22 Sans Suffixe. Thanks to Giorgio's @Giorgio N confirmation, this is the S-32M2K. :). So, if I get a solution for the rear end I can use the nose intake from the Mistercraft (not ideal but the best option available) plus some internals using resin aftermarket for the Su-7/17/22 for the cone etc. THe intake ring might also provide a nice crsip edge at the front too? 🤞 Martin I see that the rear end shape is similar to the MiG-23. It might be the basis for conversion? It would need the tailplane points adding, the speedbrakes too. It would also need a rear ring because the Flogger engine protrudes beyond the casing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: I see that the rear end shape is similar to the MiG-23. It might be the basis for conversion? It would need the tailplane points adding, the speedbrakes too. It would also need a rear ring because the Flogger engine protrudes beyond the casing The Mig-23 has the same engine as the Sukhoi S-32.🙂 Saluti Giampiero Edited December 21, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RidgeRunner Posted December 21, 2021 Author Share Posted December 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: The Mig-23 has the same engine as the Sukhoi S-32 but as the Lyulka AL-21 was almost the same engine as the AL-7 It should be easier to use the fuselage of a Sukhoi Su-7.🙂 Saluti Giampiero But I don’t understand your logic, Giampiero. The Peruvians had the R29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hook Posted December 21, 2021 Share Posted December 21, 2021 5 hours ago, RidgeRunner said: This Su-17/20/22 things is a mine field! And people think Bf 109 and MiG-21 variants are confusing. Cheers, Andre 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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