Training Hurricanes: 11 Group and 12 Group Pools, and 6 OTU

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

I thought the code letters to be slightly darker than the white of the roundel, which is why I wondered if they were possibly Sky.

Sky only became widely used post June 1940, before then it was  a specialist colour.  from the possible palette available, white, or the standard colour for codes, Medium Sea Grey, seem the most likely.

HTH

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I think you missed this (easy, as was in along post, but from information supplied by @Geoffrey Sinclair

 

L2006 is factory dated 28 June 39, L2070 is 17 Aug 39,  

Air Britain

L2006 - 11 Group pool/6 OTU etc

L2070 - 11 Group pool/6 OTU etc 

 

Note both the the DH Spitfire spinner.  I think they are 'as built' and went straight to the 11 group pool

 

What the factory finish was in summer 1939 I'm not sure. but I doubt they were still applying A1 upperwings,  so it's likely that  the use of the A1 upperwing and fuselage was a 11 group pool modification.

 

The photos of L2006 and L2070  I think are pre March 1940, as described above,  L2072 was with 6 OTU when it crash landed in March 1940, and this is likely to be M as seen above, and there has been a change to the band/code by then.

 

 

Mea culpa! I'm rather afraid I did miss this  but I had seen this in Mason, who also says L2006 and L2070 went straight to 11 Group Pool/6 OTU. I think I had noticed the Spitfire spinner: remind me, please, were these only a retro-fit for two-bladed props or were they from the factory as well?

[Graham Boak]

The Rotol prop was fitted at the factory, although this does seem early.  There were delays in producing a Rotol spinner that fitted the Hurricane nose, so the Air Ministry decided that priority in deliveries should be to the Hurricanes as they were more in need of any performance benefit.  At the time of production DH and the Ministry were still arguing over the price of their constant speed prop conversions.  The 2-blader required a different spline on the propshaft (I believe), as on the Merlin II, whereas that on the Merlin III could take either the DH vp or Rotol cs props.

 

Aside.  I am quite sure that DH nonetheless went ahead with production, as the well-publicised story of the June conversion of Fighter Command to cs props only makes sense if a fair stock of these conversions was readily available. There is a story linked to the Mosquito, concerning a conversation at DH "You know we won't get paid for this."  "If we don't make them we won't be around to get paid."  To me, this makes more sense if linked to the cs prop conversions.

 

Letters: Sky was available for Blenheims, and had been in use for some time.  Medium Sea Grey looks too dark for these codes, although perhaps this is ortho film not picking up the blue?  Other light colour options are Sky Blue and Sky Grey.

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Ah, Twaddle Alliance....

LMHO  that doesn't bode well  

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I think I have it as pdf somewhere, these seemed to be tied in with decals, and are nearly all just profiles....  including quite a few of the usual suspects. we know and love, well,  love to see the reference for at least. Same applies to the Spitfire On target books and decals. (with for reference 'private collection') 

The profile artist, Jon Freeman, also does, or did a lot of the Xtradecal sheets.  When he started a thread here on subject for the 75th anniversay BoB sheets,  [thread now gone]  I did have to draw lines on a photo to prove a point, and make quite a few detail observations.  

It should be noted there have been a fair few comments that Xtradecal are not always very careful in their research as well.

 

I think I'll steer clear, then  we've talked about Xtradecal previously, so I definitely approach them warily! Such a shame.

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I don't have the Wingleader Spitfire Mk.I book (yet) are there any similar Spitfire 11 Group pool images? 

 

I think that's going on my wanted list! 

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

AFAIK, no.   We have 3 photos of Hurricane with these bands, taken late 39/early 40.   I've not seen anything like it on other trainers, or OTU photos. Perhaps another one of those quirks, like flight coloured spinners used by a few fighter squadrons,   that was soon eliminated.

 

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Note, in the Wingleader, the comments on 303 Sq using coloured fuselage bands, and their visibility from above. page 78.

 

In some respects I'm a little surprised that there wasn't an identifier in the manner of the later Sky ID band applied to OTU aeroplanes, even though they were otherwise finished in service colours.

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

L2006 and L2070, I'd suggest Medium Sea Grey. 

for M,  yellow seems reasonable, simply as it's a tonal match to the roundel, and it has the fine outline in white? or perhaps Med Sea Grey, with a glossy in red. 

And, I'd not be surprised if these were removed by the summer.

 

Thanks for this, too! I'd quite forgotten that Sky didn't come in as a standard colour until later! MSG sounds logical.

 

I think my head is starting to spin trying to assimilate all the info  but that could be the second Covid jab, of course 

 

Thank you as always!

Kind regards,

Mark

[ClaudioN]

7 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Note both the the DH Spitfire spinner. 

7 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I think I had noticed the Spitfire spinner: remind me, please, were these only a retro-fit for two-bladed props or were they from the factory as well?

 

7 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The Rotol prop was fitted at the factory, although this does seem early.

 

I'm getting a bit confused. My understanding was that the crash-landed 'M' of No. 11 Group Pool was fitted with a DH prop?

The DH variable-pitch (VP) metal propeller superseded the Watts two-bladed wooden prop (VP units were reportedly modified later into constant speed (CS) units). I assumed the so-called 'Spitfire spinner' was the interim fit for the (slightly later) Rotol CS propeller.

The DH prop had a pointy spinner, was that spinner also different for Hurricane and Spitfire?

 

[Graham Boak]

Yes, the Spitfire had a larger diameter nose so although the DH vp prop was the same on both aircraft, the spinner was different.  Hurricane DH spinners appear longer and more pointed because of their narrower base.  Quick reminder (some might need it) the Hurricane and Spitfire fixed-pitch 2-bladers were also different.

 

M's prop is not visible, but on Y the spinner clearly overlaps the nose.  However the propeller looks, from this view, to be more of a DH shape than a Rotol so perhaps this is one of the rare Rotol metal props?  Or, more likely, a DH Spitfire spinner and prop.  As 2996 Victor said, now I notice it....

[Troy Smith]

13 minutes ago, ClaudioN said:

The DH prop had a pointy spinner, was that spinner also different for Hurricane and Spitfire?

 

yes. There is a DH Spitfire unit, which, AFAIK, was the type also initially fitted to the Hurricane, and is, like the 'Spitfire' ES/6 Rotol spinner, too big for the Hurricane nose ring.  Of note as it the type seen on the Finnish and Romanian exports, and some early Hurricanes,  what L2072 had is not visible, but both L2006 and L2070 have the DH Spitfire unit fitted.

 

Then there was the DH Hurricane spinner.  This is the one which is much more common, and was widely used.  

for comparison

these two shots from the Ducimus Hurricane Camo and Markings guide,

N2358 has the Spitfire DH unit, N2479 has the Hurricane DH unit.

As can be seen the Spitfire DH is wider and blunter, and overhangs the nose ring, the Hurricane DH is more pointed and is correct diameter.

The DH Hurricane unit also seems to be the unit then used to replace the 2 blade wooden prop initially used.

 

from https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/