Training Hurricanes: 11 Group and 12 Group Pools, and 6 OTU

[2996 Victor]

At the risk of potentially duplicating a subject that has been discussed elsewhere, I'd like to pose as a topic for discussion the Hawker Hurricanes used for advanced fighter training. However, it is difficult to locate such discussion if it has taken place, and so I hope this may be of some value toward expanding knowledge of these aeroplanes.

 

This interest was sparked by a build on the Facebook Hawker Hurricane Modellers Group, a link to which is here, with a very nice build of a Hurricane trainer. The source material for the colour scheme sparked an interesting discussion between the model's builder, Harry Bone, myself and our own @Troy Smith. The source of the scheme was the Profile Publications No.111 The Hawker Hurricane I, here, but the source material for the colour profiles is largely if not entirely unknown and as such unsubstantiated. However, that Hurricanes were used by training units can be in no doubt, and thus the colours and markings they wore are of considerable interest, if they could be but determined.

 

While discussing the possible variations of colours and markings of training Hurricanes, Troy linked to this photograph (ignore the incorrect caption). This photograph is reproduced, correctly captioned, on page 47 of WingLeader Photo Archive No.3 by @Mark Postlethwaite. Its a pity the serial number is illegible..... Two other Hurricanes appear on p.47 of the WingLeader book, these being L2006/Y and L2070/F. These aeroplanes are both listed by Mason as going straight to 11 Group Pool/6 OTU (L2070 later shown as going to 135 Sqn - one wonders if they knew it was an ex-training aircraft!!!). Can't make out M's serial.

 

Looking at the photograph of M, the code letter appears to match the yellow outermost ring of the roundel. Both Y and F are different - not quite white, not quite blue, IMHO. Sky, perhaps? But all three appear to have a red fuselage band, although M's band and code letter are both bordered with a lighter colour. The WingLeader caption suggests that the undersides were probably yellow, and this seems plausible as Mason lists both L2006/Y and L2070/F as going to 11 Group Pool/6 OTU as their first allocation and would presumably be finished in the standard training scheme.

 

M and F have Type A1 roundels on their upper wing surfaces, and I believe that Y does as well although the wing is out of focus and the filter used renders the yellow difficult to distinguish - compare to the fuselage roundel particularly where the light falls on it. All three aeroplanes have the early pole-type radio mast. M has fabric wings, and both Y and F were so-built, although in the latter cases it is difficult to discern. As training aeroplanes, it would seem unlikely that they would have been re-winged, and Y in particular appears to me to have the differential fading common to the fabric wing.

 

Have I missed anything, Troy?

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

What further information are you after?

 

11 Group Pool formed 14 January 1939 at Andover, Apparently moved to St Athan, became 6 OTU on 6 March 1940 at Sutton Bridge
12 Group Pool formed 15 September 1939 at Aston Down, still there when it became 5 OTU on 6 March 1940.

 

Quickly looking through the early Hurricanes, so some may have been missed,

 

L1870 11 Group Pool St Athan
L1895 - 1899 to A T Pool Andover, the first 3 then to 11 Group Pool, no dates, (Taken on charge dates 22 March 1939.)
L2006 - 2011 to 11 Group Pool, no dates, (Taken on Charge dates 16 June 1939.)
L2064 to 11 Group Pool, no dates, (Taken on Charge dates 25 July 1939)

L2069 - 70, L2072 - 5 to Pool at St Athan

L2093 - 8 were allocated to the pool but then redirected to Romania.

 

N2354, 6, 7 to 11 Group Pool

 

N2616 - 8, N2647 to 6 OTU

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Have I missed anything, Troy?

Hi Mark, 

No, looks good.   I have just been going through the Wingleader photos archive, which is here, to see if I could spot anymore.

https://www.wingleader.co.uk/ww2images?limit=20&page=1&searchType=any&searchString=hurricane

 

THis is the photo which is on Asisbiz, wrongly captioned

 

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Its a pity the serial number is illegible.....

I think what looks to be a serial, is just different light reflectance, as the band to be gloss, note the darker bad near the top (fin) and wider at side (tailplane) 

re 

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Two other Hurricanes appear on p.47 of the WingLeader book, these being L2006/Y and L2070/F. These aeroplanes are both listed by Mason as going straight to 11 Group Pool/6 OTU (L2070 later shown as going to 135 Sqn - one wonders if they knew it was an ex-training aircraft!!!). Can't make out M's serial.

Perhaps @Mark Postlethwaite could perhaps post the relevant images for discussion?     

 

 

 

regarding wings, 

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

and both Y and F were so-built, although in the latter cases it is difficult to discern. As training aeroplanes, it would seem unlikely that they would have been re-winged, and Y in particular appears to me to have the differential fading common to the fabric wing.

L2047 is metal, and despite there often being mention of rewinging, from photos, that happened when a wing was damaged,  otherwise, fabric was retained. 

 

@tango98 says this

"IIRC, L1823 was the last Mk 1 to be fitted with the two bladed Watts propellor, an advanced pair of metal skinned wings (manufactured by Gloster) were fitted retroactively to L1877 in April 1939 while the first Brooklands built Mk 1 to be fitted with metal skinned wings on the production line was L2027

Looking at the list sent to me by  @Geoffrey Sinclair,  metal and fabric seem to have a random pattern, and L2070 is not listed as metal.  

Hmm.    Another  aspect  to be examined.   

 

But,  it  makes sense  for  new  but  fabric  winged   to   go  to  2nd  line  duties.  

 

Back  to L1873, AFAIK the   source  is this

 

from

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircraft-Profiles/Britain/WWII/Hawker-Hurricane-I

 

and  then  repeated  here 

 

in  the  Aircam book 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircam-Aviation-Series/Hawker-Hurricane-Mk-I-IV

 

It should be noted that it  also  makes an  appearance in  the recent Valiant Wings book,  despite  being  assured  on the phone that "Richard Caruana does not copy profiles" ,  

 

Anyway, as stated in the farcebook link,  I find the profile doubtful,  mainly from the fuselage demarcation.  this is what I posted there

but in the case of trainers, there are two demarcations, mid fuselage like this

http:// http://airwar.ru/image/idop/other2/m9/m9-11.jpg

 and the standard demarcation, like this http://airwar.ru/image/idop/other2/m9/m9-6.jpg,

 

Just as it was up, 

MILES M.14 MAGISTER. 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

a wavy demarcation going up to the tailplane, well, I can't think of another example. The nearest I can think of was some 17 sq and 85 sq hurricane at Debden in July 1940 that had non standard nose and leading edge Sky repaints, which was likely a quirk of the Debden paint shop. As I pointed out, there are several profiles in the Hurricane monographs no documenatry proof has been shown, possibly they are based on verbal descriptions, as the serials are usually correct, but we are talking the mid-60's, and if you want an example of standards of research, just have a look at kits from that era. the Aircraft in Profile monographs were very sucessful, in part from the rise of plastic modelling, but they were some of the first titles of their nature to appear, and they were also affordable. Apparently the Ducimus Camoflage and Marking guides from 1970 are as good as they are because information in them had only recently been declassified. This era really was the start really of publications being made for modellers serious about their models being correct. And an great deal more information has become available since, new hurricane photos keep turning up, fragments of information as well, and ideas get revised as a result.

 

Trainers, not being very glamorous, are poorly served in the photographic record as well.

 

While image hunting, this turned up on @Etiennedup flickr

Miles Master II, 1941. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

worth a thread of it's own! 

 

[2996 Victor]

Hi Troy,

 

many thanks for your reply!

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

regarding wings

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

L2047 is metal, and despite there often being mention of rewinging, from photos, that happened when a wing was damaged,  otherwise, fabric was retained.

Concerning wings, and with particular reference to L2006 and L2070 shown in the WingLeader book, I was looking at Mason, who says of the L1547-L2146 first production batch that, "fabric-covered wing fitted on almost all aircraft but some were later modified with metal stressed-skin wings at Maintenance Units". Is there any reason to question this? Also, Mason mentions L1877 as the development aircraft fitted with metal wings as mentioned in @tango98's quote, while L2047 is quoted as having crashed at Digby, 25-10-40 - maybe it received metal wings after this mishap? Incidentally, the upper wing roundels in the photograph of L2047 are intriguing!

 

As regards the demarcation of upper and lower colours, I absolutely agree that these would have been applied to AM specifications, particularly where aircraft (such as L2006 and L2070) seem to have gone direct to training units. There would be no reason for the wavy demarcation on the rear fuselage.

 

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Back  to L1873, AFAIK the   source  is this

 

from

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircraft-Profiles/Britain/WWII/Hawker-Hurricane-I

 

and  then  repeated  here 

 

in  the  Aircam book 

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Aircam-Aviation-Series/Hawker-Hurricane-Mk-I-IV

 

It should be noted that it  also  makes an  appearance in  the recent Valiant Wings book,  despite  being  assured  on the phone that "Richard Caruana does not copy profiles" ,  

 

Anyway, as stated in the farcebook link,  I find the profile doubtful,  mainly from the fuselage demarcation.

 

Mason gives L1873 as being allocated to 501 Squadron, AAF, in March 1939, and then to the Central Flying School. The profile has a slightly fanciful look about it, and even if the yellow were to over-paint operational lower colours it seems unlikely that such a demarcation line would be followed over the existing upper surface camouflage.

 

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

a wavy demarcation going up to the tailplane, well, I can't think of another example. The nearest I can think of was some 17 sq and 85 sq hurricane at Debden in July 1940 that had non standard nose and leading edge Sky repaints, which was likely a quirk of the Debden paint shop. As I pointed out, there are several profiles in the Hurricane monographs no documenatry proof has been shown, possibly they are based on verbal descriptions, as the serials are usually correct, but we are talking the mid-60's, and if you want an example of standards of research, just have a look at kits from that era. the Aircraft in Profile monographs were very sucessful, in part from the rise of plastic modelling, but they were some of the first titles of their nature to appear, and they were also affordable. Apparently the Ducimus Camoflage and Marking guides from 1970 are as good as they are because information in them had only recently been declassified. This era really was the start really of publications being made for modellers serious about their models being correct. And an great deal more information has become available since, new hurricane photos keep turning up, fragments of information as well, and ideas get revised as a result.

 

Very true!

 

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Trainers, not being very glamorous, are poorly served in the photographic record as well.

Also very true!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

3 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

What further information are you after?

 

11 Group Pool formed 14 January 1939 at Andover, Apparently moved to St Athan, became 6 OTU on 6 March 1940 at Sutton Bridge
12 Group Pool formed 15 September 1939 at Aston Down, still there when it became 5 OTU on 6 March 1940.

 

Quickly looking through the early Hurricanes, so some may have been missed,

 

L1870 11 Group Pool St Athan
L1895 - 1899 to A T Pool Andover, the first 3 then to 11 Group Pool, no dates, (Taken on charge dates 22 March 1939.)
L2006 - 2011 to 11 Group Pool, no dates, (Taken on Charge dates 16 June 1939.)
L2064 to 11 Group Pool, no dates, (Taken on Charge dates 25 July 1939)

L2069 - 70, L2072 - 5 to Pool at St Athan

L2093 - 8 were allocated to the pool but then redirected to Romania.

 

N2354, 6, 7 to 11 Group Pool

 

N2616 - 8, N2647 to 6 OTU

Hi Geoffrey,

 

many thanks for your post and additional info. It was really more of a case of reaching a consensus on the colours and markings, whether training Hurricanes wore yellow undersides, and other less-than-usual markings. All very difficult, I know, at this distance in time, and particularly with the lack of photographic evidence readily available. One wonders if there are any records of training units' preferred markings, in the manner of the AM documents giving free reign to the PDU. Were there such things as ORBs for training units, as it would be interesting to see if there were any way of correlating serial numbers to code letters.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[gingerbob]

I'm honestly just winging it, so don't pay too much attention, but...

 

Didn't "service types" tend to stay in their normal operational colours?  For one thing, you never know when it/they might need to be pressed into more aggressive use. 

[2996 Victor]

5 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

I'm honestly just winging it, so don't pay too much attention, but...

 

Didn't "service types" tend to stay in their normal operational colours?  For one thing, you never know when it/they might need to be pressed into more aggressive use. 

Honestly don't know, so that's one aspect of training colours on which I'm hoping we can reach a degree of probability!

 

Where are the genuine, period colour photographs when you need them?  

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Troy Smith]

23 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Can't make out M's serial.

Pulling Air Britain L file, 

L2072 - 11 group Pool/6OTU.  Engine cut; Crash landed near Sutton Bridge (where 6OTU were based) 22.3.40, to GI airframe.  (Same details in the 2nd Mason book that you have.)

Note in the photo the trees are bare, but the dress suggest it's not winter, so early spring fits.

The difference in markings to L2006 maybe from the change to an OTU.   Anyway, I suggest we have a candidate for 'M'  

 

17 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Concerning wings, and with particular reference to L2006 and L2070 shown in the WingLeader book, I was looking at Mason, who says of the L1547-L2146 first production batch that, "fabric-covered wing fitted on almost all aircraft but some were later modified with metal stressed-skin wings at Maintenance Units". Is there any reason to question this?

Mason does make mistakes.  I was supplied a list of Hurricane Production by @Geoffrey Sinclair, and there are notes of metal wings dotted through the later L**** serials.  

L2047 is listed as metal winged when built, also, in the lower pic of page 42 of Wingleader

 

note the two with DH props, Spitfire spinner,  are also metal winged. (so very new, maybe N**** serial)  the centre aircraft possibly has a  4 spoked wheel (which is the earliest example I have seen if so)

Not noted in wingleader, flight coloured spinners, left look yellow(compare to prop blade tips) centre possibly red? Look lighter than the  roundel blue.

 

 

Quote

Also, Mason mentions L1877 as the development aircraft fitted with metal wings as mentioned in @tango98's quote, while L2047 is quoted as having crashed at Digby, 25-10-40 - maybe it received metal wings after this mishap? Incidentally, the upper wing roundels in the photograph of L2047 are intriguing!

L2047, Photos are Spring 1940 in France,  see page 42 of Wingleader.  

Quote

 

As regards the demarcation of upper and lower colours, I absolutely agree that these would have been applied to AM specifications, particularly where aircraft (such as L2006 and L2070) seem to have gone direct to training units. There would be no reason for the wavy demarcation on the rear fuselage.

 

regarding the possible yellow underside postulated by Wingleader.   The only plane where any of the underside is really visible is L2006,  and that is the UC door.  This is not a tonal match to the fuselage roundel yellow.  So, I'd suggest aluminium dope?  (and it's not black as per usual on the port wing) The 1940/41 Air Ministry Orders state that "service types of OTU" are to conform to normal colour scheme to the aircraft role. 

What the orders for 38/39 are,  I don't know. 

We know the Yugoslav Hurricanes undersides were all aluminium, and there was an initial factory scheme, as shown on L1583 in the drawing

 

 

 

L2006 is factory dated 28 June 39, L2070 is 17 Aug 39,  

 

Also, both look to have the DH Spitfire spinner, and L2006 is not black, the only tonal match visible is the roundel blue.  L2070 has a dark spinner, so black, or possibly red,  as the red in that photo appears near black. 

 

I'll @Graham Boak here, as he may have some further information, and even if not, a thread I think he'll find interesting.

 

cheers

T

[2996 Victor]

Hi Troy,

 

as always, thank you for your detailed notes.

 

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Pulling Air Britain L file, 

L2072 - 11 group Pool/6OTU.  Engine cut; Crash landed near Sutton Bridge (where 6OTU were based) 22.3.40, to GI airframe.  (Same details in the 2nd Mason book that you have.)

Note in the photo the trees are bare, but the dress suggest it's not winter, so early spring fits.

The difference in markings to L2006 maybe from the change to an OTU.   Anyway, I suggest we have a candidate for 'M'

Excellent! I must admit I hadn't looked further through the serial listing in Mason, which I should have. That's not to say that I'd have even spotted L2072's entry!

 

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Mason does make mistakes.

I did wonder, although I have no reason to suspect as much. I thought the first batch of 600 built by Hawker all had fabric wings - probably as a result of reading it somewhere (not Mason!), and such acquired "knowledge" tends to float up

 

However,

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

I was supplied a list of Hurricane Production by @Geoffrey Sinclair, and there are notes of metal wings dotted through the later L**** serials.  

L2047 is listed as metal winged when built

 @Geoffrey Sinclair is this info readily available anywhere? Presumably any metal-skinned-winged aeroplanes found in the "fabric" batch (for want of a better term!) had what amounted hand-built wings

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

also, in the lower pic of page 42 of Wingleader

 

note the two with DH props, Spitfire spinner,  are also metal winged. (so very new, maybe N**** serial)  the centre aircraft possibly has a  4 spoked wheel (which is the earliest example I have seen if so)

The centre aeroplane definitely has four-spoked wheels - the photograph reproduction in the book is much lighter - while the one on the left has five-spoke wheels.

 

I'm playing devil's advocate here  

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

regarding the possible yellow underside postulated by Wingleader.   The only plane where any of the underside is really visible is L2006,  and that is the UC door.  This is not a tonal match to the fuselage roundel yellow.  So, I'd suggest aluminium dope?  (and it's not black as per usual on the port wing)

looking at the yellow ring of the fuselage roundel, there is of course quite a bit of tonal variation caused by the angle to the light of the fabric between each stringer. If you compare the tone of the yellow on the first full section above the red centre of the roundel (its bottom edge runs through the crook of the "Y" and the mid-point of the serial number), its tone is very similar to that of the unshadowed part of the undercarriage door. So it could just possibly be yellow. BUT I say this with my tongue firmly in my cheek as it is definitely an instance of seeing what I want to see  I hope you'll forgive the flight of fancy! As you say, aluminium dope is far more likely particularly in view of the 1940/41 AM Orders. It would be interesting to know what the 1938/39 Orders said..... 

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

We know the Yugoslav Hurricanes undersides were all aluminium

The Belgian Aeronautique Militaire also

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

and there was an initial factory scheme, as shown on L1583 in the drawing

is WingLeader correct in saying that the L1583 scheme was a factory error on the batch selected for the ID markings trials, spotted and amended about half-way through production? As I understand it, the correct pattern should have been as shown on L1609.

 

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Also, both look to have the DH Spitfire spinner, and L2006 is not black, the only tonal match visible is the roundel blue.  L2070 has a dark spinner, so black, or possibly red,  as the red in that photo appears near black.

Agreed  

 

Thanks as always!

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

is this info readily available anywhere?

iNo, this is something Geoffrey has reseached, compiled from aircraft production cards.

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

Presumably any metal-skinned-winged aeroplanes found in the "fabric" batch (for want of a better term!) had what amounted hand-built wings

I'd venture that they were in process of making the jigs, and there was only a small amount available initially. 

 

A thought strikes me, this could also be a  early P series, the photo is from spring 1940 AFAIK, and Gloster started making them in October 1939.  I've not seen a P**** with DH Spitfire unit, but, then I'd not seen a P**** with an early type windscreen until...

I don't know if you have seen this thread?

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083989-hurricane-73-sq-france-may-1940-tp-o-p25-but-early-windscreen-fitted/

 

and this round up of when batches start and stop

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083989-hurricane-73-sq-france-may-1940-tp-o-p25-but-early-windscreen-fitted/#elControls_3902258_menu

 

Anyway, good questions and otehr obeservations get me thinking, and  make me look again.    Unlike Spitfires, these little details on Hurricanes only now seem to be being observed, or more widely shared.

 

cheers

T

[ClaudioN]

6 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Presumably any metal-skinned-winged aeroplanes found in the "fabric" batch (for want of a better term!) had what amounted hand-built wings

IIRC, fabric-winged Hurricanes came only from the initial Hurricane production plant, Brooklands. I recall reading somewhere that there were multiple production lines and metal-wing machinery superseded previous equipment one production line after another. To me, this seems a reasonale explanation of interleaved metal- and fabric-winged aircraft in one production batch.

 

Glosters started building Hurricanes after they finished building Henleys. The Hawker Henley had metal wings and outer wing panels were the same as the Hurricane. I'd think no fabric-winged Hurricane came from Gloster.

Edited June 7, 2021 by ClaudioN

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, ClaudioN said:

IIRC, fabric-winged Hurricanes came only from the initial Hurricane production plant, Brooklands. I recall reading somewhere that there were multiple production lines and metal-wing machinery superseded previous equipment one production line after another. To me, this seems a reasonale explanation of interleaved metal- and fabric-winged aircraft in one production batch.

 

Glosters started building Hurricanes after they finished building Henleys. The Hawker Henley had metal wings and outer wing panels were the same as the Hurricane. I'd think no fabric-winged Hurricane came from Gloster.

Hi Claudio,

 

Many thanks for your post! I wasn't aware of the gradual phasing-in of jigs on the Brooklands production lines, and it makes perfect sense for the in-turn gradually increasing momentum in metal stressed-skin wing production.

 

I think you're right about the Gloster-built aeroplanes - Gloster seem to have begun Hurricane production after the fabric wings had been superseded.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

iNo, this is something Geoffrey has reseached, compiled from aircraft production cards.

I'd venture that they were in process of making the jigs, and there was only a small amount available initially. 

 

A thought strikes me, this could also be a  early P series, the photo is from spring 1940 AFAIK, and Gloster started making them in October 1939.  I've not seen a P**** with DH Spitfire unit, but, then I'd not seen a P**** with an early type windscreen until...

I don't know if you have seen this thread?

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083989-hurricane-73-sq-france-may-1940-tp-o-p25-but-early-windscreen-fitted/

 

and this round up of when batches start and stop

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083989-hurricane-73-sq-france-may-1940-tp-o-p25-but-early-windscreen-fitted/#elControls_3902258_menu

 

Anyway, good questions and otehr obeservations get me thinking, and  make me look again.    Unlike Spitfires, these little details on Hurricanes only now seem to be being observed, or more widely shared.

 

cheers

T

Thanks, Troy! I hadn't seen the thread you linked so going to read that now. If nothing else, it serves to underline your signature and show that a photograph is of paramount importance.

 

My next trick (ha ha!) is to find some more photographs of 11 Group Pool and 6 OTU Hurricanes. Some hope

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Hurricane first flight 6 November 1935
Henley first flight 10 March 1937 (reported by Mason to have had fabric wings and always meant to be built at Gloster), production from October 1938 to April 1940 plus the final 2 in September.
Hotspur first flight 14 June 1938.

 

Hurricane biography, AVIA 46/114, extracts from the draft histories,

 

First Draft: The stressed skin all metal wing (File No. 522507/36), the prototype had fabric wings, but it had always been hoped that production aircraft would have the new stressed skin wings.  In these wings the metal covering was made a part of the weight bearing aerial structure.  The importance if the stressed skin lay in its weight saving capacity.  Fabric covered wings had already reached the limit of weight allowed and the stressed skin wings saved no less than 70 pounds.  Investigations by the firms into this question had been started as early as July 1935.  When the production specification was drawn up however it was decided that the Hurricane should in the first place be fitted with fabric covered wings, which would be interchangeable with metal ones.  At this stage the technical state of the stressed skin wings was still experimental and not progressed further than the design stage.  The position was aggravated by the fact that Hawkers were working on two other monoplanes for the Air Ministry at the same time, the P.4/34 [Henley] and the F.9/35 [Hotspur], both of which were expected to have metal wings.  The construction was the same in each case, the difference being in the armament.  In June 1936 it was estimated that the test wing would be ready by September but "stiffness" problems arose which involved a new design and it was necessary to earmark a special group of men in the drawing office for metal wing development.  In December it was agreed that the P.4/34 should be fitted with the first pair of metal wings.  This decision naturally reacted adversely on the Hurricane and in October 1937 it was considered that the new wings could not come in before the 301st aircraft.  It was not until March 1939 that the first pair of production stressed skin wings were received from Glosters and fitted to production aircraft at Brooklands.  Shortly afterwards flight tests were completed and the wings were cleared for operational use.

 

Second Draft: Although the prototype had fabric covered wings it had always been hoped that production aircraft would all have the new stressed skin wings in which metal covering was made part of the weight bearing structure, but when the production specification was being drawn up after the first order, it was evident that the first place Hurricanes would have to be produced with fabric covered wings, which would be interchangeable with the metal ones.  At that moment it could not be laid down exactly how many Hurricanes would have to be fitted with the fabric wings for the technical state of the stressed skin wings was still highly experimental  and had not progressed further than the design stage.  Hawkers were working on two other monoplanes for the Air Ministry, the P.4/34 [Henley] and the F.9/35 [Hotspur], both of which were expected to have metal wings and the question of which type should have priority was a difficult one.  In June 1936 the R.T.O. had judged that the test wing would be ready by September and the first pair of wings ready for fitting to an aircraft in March.  Later "stiffness" problems arose which involved a redesign, to combat the delay which was inevitable it was necessary to earmark a special group of men in Hawker's Drawing Office for metal wing development and by October it was thought that the first tentative troublesome design stage was over.  In December the question of priority had to be finally dealt with and the prototype P.4/34 was chosen for the fitment of the first pair of metal wings, somewhat naturally to the detriment of the Hurricane stressed skin wing development.  As might be expected, this meant the definite postponement of production aircraft changing over to the new wings for some time and in October 1937 it was thought that the new wings could not come in before the 301st aircraft.  In March 1939 the first pair of production stressed skin wings were received from Glosters and fitted to production aircraft L1877 at Brooklands.  Shortly afterwards flight tests were completed and the wings were cleared for operational use.  The fact that Glosters had been subcontracted to build the wings, however, probably increased the delay for Mr. Lemon in his famous report of September 1938 (EPM 120 (38)) complained that the production situation at the Gloster Company was quite one of the worst in the entire industry and the order for Hurricane wings was suffering as a consequence.

Order, requisition, Company, quantity, serials and notes.
527112/36, 26/36, Hawker, 600, L1547 to L2146 (Brooklands)
751458/38, 56/38, Hawker, 300, N2381 to N2729 (Split, 180 Brooklands and 120 Langley)
962371/38, 195/38, Gloster, 500, P2535 to P3264, first production in October 1939.
962371/38, 195/38, Hawker, 292, Brooklands, P3265 to P3984 (500 a/c), P8809 to P8818 (10 a/c), R2180 to R2689 (10 a/c), W6667 to W6670 (4 a/c)
962371/38, 195/38, Hawker, 232, Langley, (serials in Brooklands line)

 

Gloster started production in October 1939, P2535.  Given the above it is most likely correct Glosters only produced metal wing Hurricanes.

Langley stared production with the batch of 20 N2318 to N2337, deliveries from October 1939.  N2426 from Brooklands is noted as the last of the fabric covered wings aircraft built, delivered in mid November.  The next batch from Langley starts at N2453.  If you interpret "last aircraft with fabric wings" as all fabric to that point then Langley did build 20 such Hurricanes, otherwise it is quite possible Langley built none, the later L serials do have a number marked metal wing, but none of the early N serials.

 

As the wings were easily interchangeable and there are reports of plenty of spare metal wings in 1940 and evidence of earlier L serial Hurricanes with metal wings, it is clear plenty of fabric wing Hurricanes had them replaced after delivery to the RAF.

[ClaudioN]

On 6/8/2021 at 10:20 AM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Hurricane biography, AVIA 46/114, extracts from the draft histories,

Very interesting post. I didn't suspect that developing metal, stressed-skin wings had been so difficult: books on the Hurricane hardly mention this, AFAIK.

Edited June 9, 2021 by ClaudioN

[Graham Boak]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:51 PM, 2996 Victor said:

Honestly don't know, so that's one aspect of training colours on which I'm hoping we can reach a degree of probability!

 

Where are the genuine, period colour photographs when you need them?  

 

OTUs retained their service colours because they were regarded as reserves that could be called upon in an emergency.  The fighter OTUs had reserve squadron numbers, in the 550 range IIRC.  Use of OTU aircraft in Bomber Command for the early 1000 bomber raids is well recorded, including calling on Coastal Command OTUs.

[2996 Victor]

On 08/06/2021 at 09:20, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

As the wings were easily interchangeable and there are reports of plenty of spare metal wings in 1940 and evidence of earlier L serial Hurricanes with metal wings, it is clear plenty of fabric wing Hurricanes had them replaced after delivery to the RAF.

Many thanks for your post, Geoffrey, and apologies for not having responded sooner. This is fascinating information, and seems to indicate that re-winging was far more common in practice than seemed likely at first glance. This also suggests that early-production Hurricanes were rather more long-lived, generally speaking, and thus warranted replacement wings as these became available.

 

Thank you again!

 

Kind regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

OTUs retained their service colours because they were regarded as reserves that could be called upon in an emergency.  The fighter OTUs had reserve squadron numbers, in the 550 range IIRC.  Use of OTU aircraft in Bomber Command for the early 1000 bomber raids is well recorded, including calling on Coastal Command OTUs.

Hi Graham,

 

many thanks for confirming this! Was the dark-coloured rear fuselage band (red?) an identifier of training aeroplanes, and would you concur with @Troy Smith regarding the under-surface colour of L2006 is likely to be overall aluminium dope?

 

Many thanks and kind regards,

Mark

[Graham Boak]

I've not seen any suggestion of a common identifier such as a coloured band for OTU aircraft but wouldn't rule it out.  There seem to be few published photos of OTU aircraft, or indeed of training aircraft at all.  However some of these OTUs grew quite large, so I would suspect individual flight colours could have been adopted internally without needing AM approval by signals that would have got into the commonly-searched archives.  Perhaps this could be a question for a seasoned researcher such as Paul Lucas to chase up?

[2996 Victor]

While just doing a general internet search, this has come up, which given the foregoing and the resurrection of the Radar Calibration Flight machine raised a wry smile! The source of the L2006 decals is this - is it good for a laugh (but not at that price!) or is it generally okay?

 

Also, this from Oxford Diecast (well known for the errors in their 00 Gauge model railway products):

How myths can be perpetuated! Oh, and look at the fit of the radiator bath.....

 

Cheers,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

6 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I've not seen any suggestion of a common identifier such as a coloured band for OTU aircraft but wouldn't rule it out.  There seem to be few published photos of OTU aircraft, or indeed of training aircraft at all.  However some of these OTUs grew quite large, so I would suspect individual flight colours could have been adopted internally without needing AM approval by signals that would have got into the commonly-searched archives.  Perhaps this could be a question for a seasoned researcher such as Paul Lucas to chase up?

Thanks, Graham, that's brilliant! Also, I meant to add previously, have you and @Troy Smith any thoughts on the colour of the code letter? Might it be Sky?

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Graham Boak]

Oxford diecast: Mk.II radiator at that.

 

Given the retention of the 1938 roundels on L2006, I'd have thought Aluminium undersides was a safe bet.  A light underside to the port wing is the wrong way round for the only likely alternative, Night/White. I think that these are very early photos, probably before 1st May 1940 when all changed.  These aircraft will have been hauled out of MUs where they'd been sitting (presumably Air Britain serial books will confirm/deny this) since Hawkers received them back to get two-part nose ring (and other updates).  Note no venturis.  These aircraft are not in as-originally-delivered fit, but roundels were not updated even to all-round B style.  What else could they have been doing?  Y still has unarmoured windscreen.

 

6 OTU  is said to have flight colours red/Yellow/blue on the spinners.  Also for F and Y?  Note the ortho film but not the filter to make the yellow appear black too.  M is pan film so the band is likely red.  It could be that 11 Group Pool had also adopted flight colours for codes by the time this photo was taken so Yellow for the M is arguable.  Looks like white for the other two.

 

PS 6 OTU claimed three enemy aircraft after its move to the North West.  Additional information on their occasional  operational role.

[Troy Smith]

39 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

This also suggests that early-production Hurricanes were rather more long-lived, generally speaking, and thus warranted replacement wings as these became available.

I've seen few photos confirming rewinging,  see https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234983260-hurricane-mk1-l1973/&

 

There are example of fabric wings being retained, L1926 is photographed nosed over on page 89 of Wingleader,  and was presumably given enough of an overhaul that was repainted fully before being issued to 312 Sq, as looks very new paint, page 81, and has an 8 inch serial, the colour image from early 1939 shows the original 6 inch serial [though perhaps over painted with the out break of war in Sep 39?] 

 

L1952 served with Training command until 1944 when earmarked for preservation, still with fabric wings.

 

the retention of fabric wings in service by the mid-1940 P****, R**** and V**** from the few photos known, is a fascinating detail. 

 eg https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235005804-hurricane-p3886-uniqe-fabric-wing/page/2/&tab=comments#elControls_3735852_menu

but the whole thread is worth a read

 

19 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

is it good for a laugh (but not at that price!) or is it generally okay?

Ah, Twaddle Alliance....

I think I have it as pdf somewhere, these seemed to be tied in with decals, and are nearly all just profiles....  including quite a few of the usual suspects. we know and love, well,  love to see the reference for at least. Same applies to the Spitfire On target books and decals. (with for reference 'private collection') 

The profile artist, Jon Freeman, also does, or did a lot of the Xtradecal sheets.  When he started a thread here on subject for the 75th anniversay BoB sheets,  [thread now gone]  I did have to draw lines on a photo to prove a point, and make quite a few detail observations.  

It should be noted there have been a fair few comments that Xtradecal are not always very careful in their research as well.

 

42 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Was the dark-coloured rear fuselage band (red?) an identifier of training aeroplanes

AFAIK, no.   We have 3 photos of Hurricane with these bands, taken late 39/early 40.   I've not seen anything like it on other trainers, or OTU photos. Perhaps another one of those quirks, like flight coloured spinners used by a few fighter squadrons,   that was soon eliminated. 

 

I don't have the Wingleader Spitfire Mk.I book (yet) are there any similar Spitfire 11 Group pool images? 

 

Note, in the Wingleader, the comments on 303 Sq using coloured fuselage bands, and their visibility from above. page 78.

 

29 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

any thoughts on the colour of the code letter? Might it be Sky?

 

L2006 and L2070, I'd suggest Medium Sea Grey. 

for M,  yellow seems reasonable, simply as it's a tonal match to the roundel, and it has the fine outline in white? or perhaps Med Sea Grey, with a glossy in red. 

And, I'd not be surprised if these were removed by the summer.

 

I keep hoping @Mark Postlethwaite will pitch in here, as he maybe able to add in some clarifications. 

[Troy Smith]

33 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Given the retention of the 1938 roundels on L2006, I'd have thought Aluminium undersides was a safe bet.  A light underside to the port wing is the wrong way round for the only likely alternative, Night/White. I think that these are very early photos, probably before 1st May 1940 when all changed.  These aircraft will have been hauled out of MUs where they'd been sitting (presumably Air Britain serial books will confirm/deny this) since Hawkers received them back to get two-part nose ring (and other updates).  Note no venturis.  These aircraft are not in as-originally-delivered fit, but roundels were not updated even to all-round B style.  What else could they have been doing?  Y still has unarmoured windscreen.

I think you missed this (easy, as was in along post, but from information supplied by @Geoffrey Sinclair

 

L2006 is factory dated 28 June 39, L2070 is 17 Aug 39,  

Air Britain

L2006 - 11 Group pool/6 OTU etc

L2070 - 11 Group pool/6 OTU etc 

 

Note both the the DH Spitfire spinner.  I think they are 'as built' and went straight to the 11 group pool

 

What the factory finish was in summer 1939 I'm not sure. but I doubt they were still applying A1 upperwings,  so it's likely that  the use of the A1 upperwing and fuselage was a 11 group pool modification.

 

The photos of L2006 and L2070  I think are pre March 1940, as described above,  L2072 was with 6 OTU when it crash landed in March 1940, and this is likely to be M as seen above, and there has been a change to the band/code by then.

 

 

 

[2996 Victor]

54 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Oxford diecast: Mk.II radiator at that.

I hadn't spotted that, but no real surprise.....  

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Given the retention of the 1938 roundels on L2006, I'd have thought Aluminium undersides was a safe bet.  A light underside to the port wing is the wrong way round for the only likely alternative, Night/White. I think that these are very early photos, probably before 1st May 1940 when all changed.  These aircraft will have been hauled out of MUs where they'd been sitting (presumably Air Britain serial books will confirm/deny this) since Hawkers received them back to get two-part nose ring (and other updates).  Note no venturis.  These aircraft are not in as-originally-delivered fit, but roundels were not updated even to all-round B style.  What else could they have been doing?  Y still has unarmoured windscreen.

 

If OTUs were regarded as reserves and were finished in concurrent service colours, do you think that the lower surfaces may have subsequently been re-painted to conform with the night/white ID scheme?

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

6 OTU  is said to have flight colours red/Yellow/blue on the spinners.  Also for F and Y?  Note the ortho film but not the filter to make the yellow appear black too.  M is pan film so the band is likely red.  It could be that 11 Group Pool had also adopted flight colours for codes by the time this photo was taken so Yellow for the M is arguable.  Looks like white for the other two.

 

In the photograph, L2006 appears to have its spinner a similar tone to the yellow, while L2070's spinner appears to match the roundel centre and fuselage band, so could be red or black. I must admit I thought the code letters to be slightly darker than the white of the roundel, which is why I wondered if they were possibly Sky.

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

PS 6 OTU claimed three enemy aircraft after its move to the North West.  Additional information on their occasional  operational role.

 

It'd be interesting to learn who the pilots were and what their quarry was! I'll bet there were some celebrations in the mess afterwards!  

 

Cheers,

Mark