109 Color & Detail

[dov]

Hallo

Just having seen some models on this forum from the 109.

As a long time modeler with much insight in real aviation and museums, here some ideas:

The colors of cockpits of German a/c are mostly much too dark.

Beside this, the dry brushing is mostly on the too heavy side. Look at some 109s.

Both samples are very accurate in color and detail. From Krakau and Wiener Neustadt close to Vienna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Happy modelling

[stevehnz]

What is the green colour in the mottles on Weis 13, The RLM 74 & 75 I can get but the green looks unlike anything I know unless it is RLM 25, a shade I have not normally associated with external use. Nice photos otherwise, thanks for sharing them.

Steve.

[tank152]

I would never use a museum exhibit to base any of my models on, especially those.

Unless, they're still in their original paintwork. The G-6 in Australia for example.

[dov]

Tank-152

Your post is a contradiction!

Every original paintwork has a life before it was stored. How do you know that is original?

And every color, no matter which one, underlies a chemical process.

If you claim for perfection, what are your sources?

Your way is not my way.

Happy modelling

[Tbolt]

Is RLM 66 actually that light and blue a shade or has a different colour been used in Red 3's cockpit? I always thought it was more like these.

 

 

[Graham Boak]

Perhaps some justification is needed for the cream colour inside the wheelwells, at the least. 

 

The  Australia G is known to have been untouched.  This cannot be said about the one shown in this thread.

 

RLM 66 was that dark.  If it turns out that at least some Bf.109 cockpits weren't painted in 66 but in some other colour, then this would be valuable information.  However the photos do seem to illustrate the problems of photographing dark colours inside a dark cockpit: the use of strong extra lights will and do alter the appearance of colours.

[Tbolt]

4 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Perhaps some justification is needed for the cream colour inside the wheelwells, at the least. 

 

The  Australia G is known to have been untouched.  This cannot be said about the one shown in this thread.

 

RLM 66 was that dark.  If it turns out that at least some Bf.109 cockpits weren't painted in 66 but in some other colour, then this would be valuable information.  However the photos do seem to illustrate the problems of photographing dark colours inside a dark cockpit: the use of strong extra lights will and do alter the appearance of colours.

 

I don't know the accuracy of the information on this page https://emmasplanes.com/index.php/paints/rlm-colors/ , but it states for RLM66 :-

 

"Had a more lighter and greener touch before it was changed in the 1941 revision of the L.Dv. 521/1. It is unknown why the colour was changed, but if might have to do with it use as cockpit colour."

 

 

[tank152]

For those that don't know about the Australian War Memorial G-6

The red primer on the coolant tanks and engine bearers is not original. 

[Bozothenutter]

Pictures of restored aircraft are not the best way to illustrate your point.

They would only have value with either a colour chart or grey chart in the frame.

Colours change with exposure, use of flash, presence of UV light.

Then they can change again in post processing, and if you want to go that far print.

As far as I know RLM66 is quite a known entity.

If restored aircraft seem lighter, I would check with either the restorers or the paint suppliers.

For all we know they used a colour analyser, or not, or matched to RAL.

Unless we have an answer from the museun, we know nothing....

[Werdna]

Both ends of the spectrum here.  On the one hand, a museum-restored example with fresh paintwork.  On the other hand, an unrestored example with original 70+ year old paint (faded, oxidised, whatever) and apparently more shades, patches and apparent re-touches than you can shake a stick at.  The Australian G-6 is a fascinating example of 'originality', but I suspect neither of the aircraft above left the factory looking like they do now.

[Bozothenutter]

3 hours ago, tank152 said:

For those that don't know about the Australian War Memorial G-6

The red primer on the coolant tanks and engine bearers is not original. 

So did somebody 'preserve' the engine area by spraying it red?

Are there any pics of that time.....a full red engine area.....😱

[tank152]

3 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

So did somebody 'preserve' the engine area by spraying it red?

Are there any pics of that time.....a full red engine area.....😱

The only areas painted with the protective coating where the ones seen in that film I posted. 

If you're interested in this aircraft I suggest you try and locate a copy of  Augsburg's Last Eagles. Colors,  Markings & Variants. Brett Green. (Eagle Editions) Where there is a chapter devoted to W.Nr 163382.

Another book worth it's weight in gold, as all JaPo books are, is Messerschmitt Bf109s & other aircraft of I/EKG(J) in it there's some detailed information about repair shops, Reparaturwerke. 163824 was overhauled by Ludwig Hanson & Co in Munster during late 1944.

If i've read it correctly 

163824 was converted from a G-6 to a Bf109G-6/AS NF+FY by Mtt Regensburg in around July 44. Prior to being assigned it was involved in a collision with W.Nr 20488 at Rheine airfield where it suffered 30% damage.

[SafetyDad]

2 hours ago, Werdna said:

Both ends of the spectrum here.  The Australian G-6 is a fascinating example of 'originality', but I suspect neither of the aircraft above left the factory looking like they do now.

 

Yes. I've long been fascinated by how many 'Luftwaffe colour rules' the Australian G-6 breaks, with its unidentified dark grey (almost black) and light grey (RLM77?) on the upper wings, a splash of (apparently) RLM 78 Desert blue on the cowl bulges and different camo on both wings. Yes, it was rebuilt and repaired in its life but the colours used require more explanation than that.

 

Assuming (quite reasonably in my book) that this specimen was not selected for preservation because of its out-of-the-ordinary paintwork, it would seem that Luftwaffe camouflage colours were applied in a far more random fashion (especially late war) than we modellers insist upon? The NASM Fw 190F and their Ar 234B both revealed during restoration unaccounted for dark browns and buff colours not recorded in official communiques , Yet many of we modellers insist to the point of obsession that such-and-such a colour cannot or must have been applied at a given date. 

 

I'm not suggesting that camouflage and painting rules did not apply, far from it, merely that the limited evidence we have from a very few untouched airframes contradicts (quite strongly at that) any rigid adherence to fixed colour use.

 

Just my 2 pennies...

 

I'll just collect this as I go ...

 

SD

[tank152]

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

 

Yes. I've long been fascinated by how many 'Luftwaffe colour rules' the Australian G-6 breaks, with its unidentified dark grey (almost black) and light grey (RLM77?) on the upper wings, a splash of (apparently) RLM 78 Desert blue on the cowl bulges and different camo on both wings. Yes, it was rebuilt and repaired in its life but the colours used require more explanation than that.

 

I suggest you treat yourself to the JaPo book I mentioned and catch up with the latest research regarding these overhauled machines. Plenty of non standard stuff in there to feast your eyes on. I particularly like the G-6 with the K-4 wings but without the larger main wheels normally associated with the K-4 wings. That aircraft is available on a BarracudaCals decal sheet.

[Mr T]

Reading around the difficulties being faced by the German economy from the middle of 1944 (I would recommend 'Wages of Destruction' by Adam Tooze), it would not be surprising if the paints used by manufacturers were not completely in line with what the RLM ordered. The factories were under a lot of pressure to produce aircraft in an attempt to redress an increasingly desperate war  situation. Not only were there the effects of bombing on the transport system, but the Germans were running short of a lot of raw materials towards the end of the war. Anything that could not be sourced from Europe was basically unavailable after stockpiles were either run down or looted from occupied countries. It is often overlooked how effective the British and then Allied blockade was. Real coffee for example, was virtually non existent for most Germans from quite early on in war. 

You only have to think of the short lives of German jet engines, largely because they were unable to produce the high temperature alloys as they lacked access to sufficient quantities of the necessary metals. 

[tank152]

I think you'll find the only colour worth mentioning that altered shade wise was RLM76 which got a lot paler towards the end of the war.

To say the Germans cobbled virtually everything together towards the end is as bigger myth as the Russians using tractor paint on their aircraft! 

For example to the trained eye you can tell which factory a Fw190 D was managing in and by the camouflage pattern the W.Nr batch a Bf109 K-4 was in. Both late war machines. 

[Werdna]

3 minutes ago, tank152 said:

I think you'll find the only colour worth mentioning that altered shade wise was RLM76 which got a lot paler towards the end of the war.

To say the Germans cobbled virtually everything together towards the end is as bigger myth as the Russians using tractor paint on their aircraft! 

 

 

Your statement here seems incompatible with what is contained within the video of the Aus G-6 though, no..?

[tank152]

14 minutes ago, Werdna said:

 

Your statement here seems incompatible with what is contained within the video of the Aus G-6 though, no..?

No it doesn't, that airframe came from a overhaul centre. Not a factory. Also I said virtually. You seem to be having trouble reading things correctly, yesterday it was W.Nr's 😉 Or maybe it's for some reason it's me you're having trouble with, if so there's a ignore function on here, try it out.

Treat yourself to the JaPo book, no self respecting Luftwaffe fan, especially late war should be without their stuff on their shelves.

 

[Nachtwulf]

In the end we can have as accurately shaped models of aircraft as we can whilst painting them to our own satisfaction. I build for myself and not others.

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, tank152 said:

No it doesn't, that airframe came from a overhaul centre. Not a factory. Also I said virtually. You seem to be having trouble reading things correctly, yesterday it was W.Nr's 😉 Or maybe it's for some reason it's me you're having trouble with, if so there's a ignore function on here, try it out.

Treat yourself to the JaPo book, no self respecting Luftwaffe fan, especially late war should be without their stuff on their shelves.

 

 

Why would I want to put you on ignore?  If I did that I would miss over-reactions like this...  

 

I get that it came from an overhaul facility - so the other option (or at least one of them) is that the overhaul facility was using undocumented (or at least unidentified) paint.  I may well get the JaPo book - if only to achieve the requisite amount of self-respect  

 

Seriously though Tank - I'm not having trouble with you (I thought it was the other way round, but there's certainly no issue on my part).  But while the Aus G-6 is a proper 'time capsule' and should be preserved as such - I'm really not sure how much it reliably tells us about late-war paint schemes - or the paint itself - other than to remind us how much we still don't know.

[tank152]

1 hour ago, Werdna said:

 

But while the Aus G-6 is a proper 'time capsule' and should be preserved as such - I'm really not sure how much it reliably tells us about late-war paint schemes - or the paint itself - other than to remind us how much we still don't know.

Unfortunately unless someone gives us a time machine to transport us back it's our best insight to late war colours. There's also Black X a Me262 A-2a, from I/KG 51and a Me163 both in Australia that still wear their original colours.

[dov]

Just to make a point:

 

To go back to facts:

Even one example is not a statistical significant crowd.

One example gives you an idea as long this particular represents the average.

Which we absolutly do not know.

But we do not know at all.

 

To Tank 152:

To stay calm, and think what you see.

Even 100 books of warbirds will give you ideas.

Ideas what the author thinks.

Ideas, yes. Facts?

Facts, what you see on original photos in this books.

Careful with photos after the war, some aircraft were repainted fo a better look too!

By prisoner of war.

 

If I look at the Australian 109, the only item I would refer to a color as a sample are the inside the fuselage mounted FuG and compass installation.

The outside color of this Australian sample:

It was on the sip, on the harbor with salty air.

Was the transport on deck?

What is the origin of the aircraft?

 

Color:

Always a range.

As a stamp collector:

On stamp shows you one tint one shine of a color.

One sheet of stamps show you a small range.

10 sheets show you much more.

The same with an aircraft.

Each standardized color has a range.

 

Tbolt: Wonderful photos.

Good. It is a new and fresh painted cockpit.

Anyway, it is nice to see how different the perspective is on such a matter.

Look into detail and you may create a model which reflects it quite well.

 

Happy modelling

[SafetyDad]

8 hours ago, tank152 said:

Unfortunately unless someone gives us a time machine to transport us back it's our best insight to late war colours. There's also Black X a Me262 A-2a, from I/KG 51and a Me163 both in Australia that still wear their original colours.

 

Sadly the Me 163 at Point Cook has been repainted - photos are all we have of the original scheme.

 

 

 

 

 

(pics from online sources)

 

I have most of the JaPo publications, going back to their earliest in the 1980s. The Bf 109 volume you refer to is outstanding from my shelves, but I'll get a copy! 

 

SD

[Duncan B]

Using museum restored examples to claim accuracy of original paints is a precarious step to take. All that can be safely said about those examples is that this is the way they appear now and if you want to build a replica of a museum piece here's your references.

 

I question the colour of the inside of the engine covers, the cream colour in the wheel wells and engine bearers just for a starter. The partially complete cockpit shows varying stages of heavy wear to the individual dials yet the surrounding "RLM66" looks remarkably fresh (to the point of being a brand new coat of paint). I would not be basing any firm and fast opinions on WW2 paint colours based on that example, just look at the back to the rudder pedals where they haven't been repainted, what colour is that?

 

I will go as far as to say that the OP is completely off track in claiming that modellers should be looking towards these examples to confirm the accuracy of RLM66 (and any other colour used on them to be honest). Many professional researchers have poured over the available original data for many years to come up with the colours that are widely accepted as being as accurate as we can expect to achieve so long after the event. They sometimes do differ slightly in their results of course however I can't recall any of them ever recommending museum restored examples to confirm their work.

 

Duncan B

[Julien]

As with all thing colour or color it seems to be getting a bit heated and people need to step away from the keyboard. As someone who works restoring aircraft no matter how diligent you are I would agree with @Duncan B above.

 

Lets not let the moderation team get involved here again please.