JG301 Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The exact dates from when the RLM ordered Focke Wulf to first test the unpainted undersides first on 50 aircraft is the 30th of june 1944 with further instructions sent to Focke Wulf Bad Eilsen and Focke Wulf Bremen the 14th and the 24th of july.This can be found on page 154 to 157 of the book.Ullmann says that "it has to be considered that from the middle of 1944 aircraft with simplified Oberflächenschutz (unpainted inside) and unpainted undersides were not an exception but the rule."

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

If this is extended to the Dora, then this is proven to be incorrect, at least in an absolute form.  The area of the wing aft of a little way behind the leading edge, yes.  Overall, no.   I have not seen nor seen reference to any equally thorough study of late Antons, but am sure I've seen at least one photo of inverted aircraft on a dump showing a distinct colour change some distance aft of the leading edge.

 

As an ex-aerodynamicist, I am certain the the leading edge will have been filled and smoothed to perhaps 25% chord.  This is much more important on the upper surface, but is possible that it was extended to the lower side too.

[David E. Brown]

 

“Yellow 8” is an A-8 as seen from the front view showing the motor’s cooling fan blades.  Their layout indicates 12, thus indicating a BMW 801 D-2. I do not use photo-hosting services, so if someone wants a copy of this image and post it here, contact me.

 

Some have compared this machine to “Red 22+-“, WNr.490044 of 6./II.JG 301 to postulate that “Yellow 8” is also an A-9. I cannot see a relationship except for its unit affiliation. “Red 22” is an A-9 built by Focke-Wulf Anslau, with a small group of about 30 aircraft built over the December 1944 to January 1945 period: WNrn.490020-490050.

 

When compared to Red 22”, “Yellow 8” has noticeable camouflage and markings differences: The Hakenkreuz is the black and white H2a style versus “Red 22’s” solid black H3 style. Its fuselage upper/lower surface demarcation line is lower than ““Red 22’s”. As well, its tail originally had few if any mottling with the stripes applied at the unit level.  “Red 22’s” has a heavily mottled tail applied at the point of production. The contrast between its wing upper surface colours is lower than “Red 22’s” lighter RLM 75/77, possibly RLM 81 and 82.

 

Eduard’s proposed WNr.206147 for “Yellow 8” is unlikely.  Compared to extant photos of other A-9s from the 206031-206200 Werknummerserien (built by Focke-Wulf Cottbus in November-December 1944), what is visible in the colour photo of “Yellow 8” does not match the more bolder and thicker digit style of this series (it also appears on both sides of the fin).  To me this appears to be a recycled aircraft with repaired components from other aircraft, thus explaining the unusual haphazard scheme.  Until a clearer image of the Werknummer surfaces, its true identity will remain unknown.

 

Best,

 

David

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The rivets had to be puttied and the complete inside of the aircraft and underside had to be left unpainted.The RLM ordered that Focke Wulf had to use Warnecke&Böhm putty but Focke Wulf answered putty by firma Ruth was better suited.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Graham Boak]

I have the English edition of the Uhlmann book, and the relevant text is on pages 183 to 185.  However reading the whole text results in a different interpretation: it is entirely, bar the last paragraph, devoted to a discussion of the intended trials at Sorau of the first 50 aircraft to be finished without camouflage on the underside.  However the underside is to be primed - not left bare metal.  There is no result reported of the trial.  There is no reference to any further documentation relating to this trial, nor any conclusions drawn from it to be included in future instructions.  In his final paragraph he does not summarize this but states plainly that "these unpainted aircraft undersides actually existed"  We must assume so, at least until they were primed.  This provides no proof of any unpainted undersides, only uncamouflaged ones, which is not the same thing.  It also says nothing about the undersides of later aircraft, except he admits that only a few photographs exist showing unpainted undersides. To say then as he does, that "it must be assumed" is unsupported.  It may be assumed, but from the same evidence it can equally be assumed that unpainted undersides were the exception rather than the rule.  On this evidence, he is asking us to take an unjustified leap of faith.

 

Obviously, there are other reasons for accepting that at least partially uncamouflaged surfaces were common.  What is clearly lacking is evidence for just what this primer was.  Was it transparent, in which case we are not necessarily seeing bare metal.  Or was it coloured, in which case we may only be seeing some bare metal.  One possible hint is that Sorau found it very difficult to obtain supplies of this primer.  We know that German camouflage paints of the period are self-priming, so it seems likely to me that mass production using a primer was not going to be practical - but Uhlmann makes no comment to this effect, though I feel it would have considerably strengthened his case.

 

The photo showing an inverted Fw190A was actually an F-8, which I think makes little difference.  It is in Ken Merrick's German Aircraft Markings 1939-45, published by Ian Allan in 1977.  It shows four different effects on the underside.  The leading edge, up to the tip of the bomb racks, is dark but not an even tone.  I think this is consistent with some dark primer having been rubbed down.  Then there is a light colour to approximately 40% chord followed by a slightly lighter colour going to the aileron gap.  These two appear without patchiness of changes of tone inside them, as if at least one if not both were painted.  However, the angle of the light makes this a possibly unreliable guide.  The ailerons appear to be the same tone as the first segment of the wing, but the lowered flaps appear darker, which is at least partially shadow if not largely.  However the elevators are not lowered, yet appear considerably darker than the underside of the tailplane.  I consider this as good evidence of an (at least partially) unpainted underside.  Sorry, but I've no great desire to go through the Japo volumes to draw comparisons with what is presented there, other than to say that it appears to be compatible with one or more of the various undersides identified on the Dora.  As can surely only be expected?

 

On the opposing page is a photo of the underground line at Templehof.  There's no guide to the underside, but the leading edges of wing and tailplane show distinct signs of distinctive treatment of some kind.  I presume this reflects the actual aircraft structure.

[David E. Brown]

 

 

Regarding the primer colour, this is documented on NASM’s Me 262 A-1a “Yellow 7+I”, WNr.500491 of 11./JG 7. This light grey primer was applied to the entire aircraft prior to painting as noted in the NASM pre-restoration reports prepared by Bob Mikesh and Mike Lyons.  They indicated this primer was visible on the lower fuselage sides as the RLM 76 was applied only to the wing and fuselage undersides and limited to the point where the fuselage sides have an acute vertical angle.  This primer is a rather warm shade of grey that is identified as FS36559 (on the Federal Standard 595B colour fan).  From my comparison with the RAL 840-HR “Farbenflächer RAL-K5” it is slightly lighter than RAL7033 “Cement Grey”. It is also replicated in Merrick and Hitchcock’s “The Official Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft 1935-1945” (Monogram Aviation Publications, Boyleston MA, 1980, p.143).

 

The Fw 190 Fs photographed at Tempelhof post-war you mention are interesting.  They display a myriad of camouflage colours and markings styles.  There is no doubt that these aircraft were all being recycled and converted to the F-8/F-9 variant.  There was an Fw 190 production line and a repair facility in the Berlin-Tempelhof buildings operated by Weser Flugzeugbau GmbH. Following its occupation by the USAAF in July 1945, all aircraft and the factory equipment were removed out of the buildings and dumped onto the airport apron to be scrapped. There are a number of photographs of these wrecks that display a variety of original unit markings. It is believed that more than 1,000 Fw 190s were overhauled and repaired there, with incoming machines later converted to F-8/9 standards.

 

Intriguingly, there is also the oft-published NARA photograph of a group of at least 18 Fw 190 fuselages in a small facility at Kölleda Germany.  They are all without motors with some obviously operational machines with unit markings, and others apparently new.  The tails on eight are new replacements and interestingly only the ninth appears to have its original tail.  This is a new Fw 190 A-9 WNr.206057.  I strongly suspect that all these machines were also being repaired and converted to Fw 190 F-8s and F-9s.  What their new Weknummerserie would have been is unknown.

 

Best,

 

David

 

[Werdna]

6 hours ago, David E. Brown said:

 This primer is a rather warm shade of grey that is identified as FS36559 (on the Federal Standard 595B colour fan).

 

Interestingly, FS36559 corresponds to Vallejo's 'RLM84' late-war colour - the FS designation also appears on the bottle, next to the RLM one.  That's just an observation, even though the two colours appear (to me at least) slightly different.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

According to this German Forum the primer is Ikarol 7102 which is a light green.It also says that Luftwaffe aircraft built from summer 1944 to the end of the war had generally no primer at all.

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/grundierung-der-luftwaffen-flugzeuge-ww2.79186/

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

[Jochen Barett]

On 12/06/2021 at 17:13, David E. Brown said:

 

“Yellow 8” is an A-8 as seen from the front view showing the motor’s cooling fan blades.  Their layout indicates 12, thus indicating a BMW 801 D-2. I do not use photo-hosting services, so if someone wants a copy of this image and post it here, contact me.

+++

Best,

David

I don't have a photo-hosting servide at hand either, but I would love to see that picture shown in this thread!

(even more than receiving my personal copy via mail)

[David E. Brown]

Jochen, 

 

Send me your email address via The PM for this site and I will forward the image described. 
 

Best,

 

David

[KeithA]

Pure personal intepretation based on the colour and b/w pics (these are pretty well known of course) but I've always thought that cooling ring was two-tone showing residial camoflage from another aircraft and installed upside down for some reason - my assumption being I assumed this was a late repair after a forced landing or airfield strike due to the number of mis-matched panels up-front.

Especially in the colour images the demarcation looks painted rather than a shadow. Admittedly I've been carrying that thought around for years and I've never investigated whether this component could actually be inverted on installation.