JG301 Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8

[GiampieroSilvestri]

In April 1945 Jagdgeschwader 301 was based around Hagenow,Neustadt(Mecklenburg) and Ludwigslust.Salzwedel is not far away from Mecklenburg region so it is more plausible that the picture was taken there than at Halberstadt.Halberstadt is near Wernigerode in the Harz mountains.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Jochen Barett]

31 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

In April 1945 Jagdgeschwader 301 was based around Hagenow,Neustadt(Mecklenburg) and Ludwigslust.Salzwedel is not far away from Mecklenburg region so it is more plausible that the picture was taken there than at Halberstadt.Halberstadt is near Wernigerode in the Harz mountains.

Saluti

Giampiero

Well yes, "more plausible", but not "100%".

 

Reading across this (more or less reliable source) http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Jagdgeschwader/JG301-R.htm

I can read for II. Gruppe: Neustadt-Glewe (April 10th '45) and Leck (end of April) and I'm pretty sure the buildings are not located at Neustadt-Glewe, and Leck was occupied by Britsh forces (after May 8th), not GIs.

 

Halberstadt and Salzwedel both were liberated by US troops, the distance between the two places is 100km (give or take a few), so it would also be "plausible" that 190 landed at Halberstadt at the end of a mission (more or less damaged, no fuel left to return to the home base) and was abandoned there - or the pilot took the plane and flew "home" (where his parents or bride waited, maybe Lüneburg (nope. British), maybe Goslar (yes, GIs), maybe xyz).

 

Still: Yes, Salzwedel is a bit more plausible (I would love to know where Go 242 remained in those days!), but taking a look at the buildings, finding other pictures of the area and comparing the landscape would give better clues (maybe even "evidence"). A US intelligence report including the Werknummer would be even better.

[MDriskill]

Not sure it still matters to anyone at this point (!), but if the first digit of the serial is a "2," it's an A-9. According to my sources at least, there were no A-8 batches with an initial "2" in their serial but as noted above, A-9's from Focke-Wulf Cottbus were numbered in the "20xxxx" sequence.

 

For what it's worth, here's another copy of the photo, which I got from the infamous auction site a few years ago. I have no idea exactly how it was made or how accurate the colors are, etc., but it's very crisply printed on high-quality glossy photo stock.

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The left landing gear cover and the lower part of the cowling seam to be unpainted.That would confirm what Michael Ulmann wrote in his book that Focke Wulf Fw 190 with completely unpainted undersides except the flaps were the rule at the end of the war.The rudder seams to be the same colour as the landing gear cover so it could also be unpainted.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

The left landing gear cover and the lower part of the cowling seam to be unpainted.That would confirm what Michael Ulmann wrote in his book that Focke Wulf Fw 190 with completely unpainted undersides except the flaps were the rule at the end of the war.The rudder seams to be the same colour as the landing gear cover so it could also be unpainted.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

The rudder is fabric, so if unpainted would very unlikely be the same colour as unpainted dural.  The gear cover and lower cowling look like regular 76 to me.

 

Just thinking aloud here - could the dark/matt finish on the cowling and lower half of the oil cooler ring - be the result of a minor engine fire?  It looks almost like smoke damage rather than any kind of deliberate painting.  Might also explain why the discolouring stops halfway up the cooler ring.

[Jochen Barett]

4 versions of 1 photo

5 experts viewing

6 interpretations given

 

In that last version the rudder looks like in the first version shown and it does look 76 to me. Note less pronounced red on pilot's step too.

 

Engine fire could be possible, but it would not fit to the other versions shown with the slight greenish tint, and I'd expect the area between exhaust and cowling to be effected in a similar way to the cowling and cooler ring.

 

Assuming this picture https://wwiitracings.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/focker-wolf-190-at-salzwedel-airport-their-location-on-v-e-day-cliffie-graham-john-andrews-e-de-la-garza.jpg

 

 

is showing the same plane and judging the cowling not being that dark I'd say "no engine fire", but mabe those GIs set the engine on fire and the color shot was taken a day later

 

In the B&W image the rudder looks a tad darker than 76 and based on just this pic any expert might easily come up with "the rudder is yellow RLM 04" and sell that to me.

 

And yes, the front most cooler ring could be bare aluminum (was it made from aluminum or steel?) but I'd rather go with 76 for it and the landing gear cover (though it could be very dull aluminum too (but not n the B&W pic))

[Jochen Barett]

PS to that B&W pic:

 

It is shown here https://wwiitracings.wordpress.com/2014/02/

"Men of the 111th Ordnance Company"

with the caption "Focker Wolf 190 at Salzwedel Airport, Germany, their location on V-E Day. Cliffie Graham, John Andrews, Leo De La Garza"

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, Jochen Barett said:

And yes, the front most cooler ring could be bare aluminum (was it made from aluminum or steel?) 

 

Happy to be corrected, but I thought the ring was armoured, so most likely steel (not sure if stainless or not)..

[Jochen Barett]

23 minutes ago, Werdna said:

 

Happy to be corrected, but I thought the ring was armoured, so most likely steel (not sure if stainless or not)..

I have no data wether it was stainless or not.

 

But please let's not feel "corrected" let's feel "we are talking about things we observe now and things we think we already know from other sources".

 

Here is another shot I would like to connct to Gelbe-8. The caption says Salzwedel and the 242/244 remains to the left look somehow familiar.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/wadman2.htm

 

 

Other experts talking about the subject:  http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=42274

Edited June 8, 2021 by Jochen Barett

[Werdna]

4 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

I have no data wether it was stainless or not.

 

But please let's not feel "corrected" let's feel "we are talking about things we observe now and things we think we already know from other sources".

 

Here is another shot I would like to connct to Gelbe-8. The caption says Salzwedel and the 242/244 remains to the left look somehow familiar.

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/wadman2.htm

 

 

Other experts talking about the subject:  http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=42274

 

I would say very likely that it's the same a/c, from a different angle.  Prop is in same position, maintenance covers hanging down from the underside, 'bright' looking cowl ring and also the RVD band is visible.  Also, it looks like the Bf109 wreck is also visible in the background..

[MDriskill]

The colors on this a/c are so weird, I'd be afraid to speculate! We could debate for days and come to no consensus on the fuselage alone...and we can't even see the tops of the wings and tail at all. 

 

But to comment on one detail...the front of the cowl, and separate ring over the oil cooler, were made of steel armor plate, not aluminum or stainless steel. Even on an un-camouflaged cowl they were a dull dark color, as you can see on this shot of another machine. Whether this was a primer, or some sort of heat treatment etc., I don' t know.

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Here is the link to a web page about the airfield Salzwedel.Looking at the buildings the picture was probably taken at Salzwedel.

http://www.fliegerhorst-salzwedel.de/html/fliegerhorst.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Jochen Barett]

On 08/06/2021 at 13:26, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Here is the link to a web page about the airfield Salzwedel.Looking at the buildings the picture was probably taken at Salzwedel.

http://www.fliegerhorst-salzwedel.de/html/fliegerhorst.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

That contemporary arial view does show the closest building (that is absent in today's google "satellite" view). And there are more captions in favour of Salzwedel. So I (we?) can rest and accept/say "Yes. These pics were taken at Salzwedel."

 

Now let's go for the first digit of the Werknummer and length of cowling / oil cooler (A9-decsison) and applicable paint codes ... (again, in a civilized way).

[Graham Boak]

It is new to me that the length of the oil cooler/cowling distinguished an A-9, and if so what is this difference?  I understood that the only visible (external) difference was the number of blades on the fan.

[Jochen Barett]

I have no personal pieces of evidence (and I'm not dogmatic about it), I just read it on the German Wikipedia entry

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190#Fw_190_A-9

 

"Zusammen mit einem effizienteren Lader, einem größeren Öltank (dessen Panzerung von 6 auf 10 mm verstärkt wurde) sowie mit Motorträger und Triebwerksverkleidung lieferte BMW die Motoren als Austauschtriebwerk mit der Bezeichnung BMW 801 TS an Focke-Wulf aus. Bedingt durch den größeren Öltank verlängerte sich die Motorverkleidung der Fw 190 A-9 um 30 mm. Ein neuer Kühlventilator mit 14 statt 12 Blättern verbesserte die Kühlung für den leistungsgesteigerten Motor."

 

My go at the translation (I'm not certified to do this, so you may wanna cross check it with google translate :

"Together with a more efficient supercharger, a larger oil tank (with increased armour from 6 ro 10 mm) BMW supplied the engines complete with engine bearer and cowling as replacement engines with the designation BMW 801 TS to Focke Wulf. Due to the larger oil tank the Fw 190 A-9's cowling was lengthened by 30 mm. A new cooling fan with 14 instead of 12 blades improved cooling of the engine with increased performance."

 

The following passage in the German Wikipedia entry tells us all A-9 hat a VDM metal prop and the blown hood (of the F-8).

 

Visualized https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190#/media/Datei:Fw_190_A8_A9_Wiki.jpg

 

In case anybody has a Japo book or an uncle's friend's former co-worker's nephew's wife's cousin with access to factory drawings or a museum/private 190 A-9 at hand contradicting this information or just really long experience in talking about scale models is welcome to share his/her information.

 

We could have just shrugged our shoulders at the opening post, but to me it is interesting what the fact digging crowd can come up with.

[Graham Boak]

Thanks.  I've done a little bit of digging and sources agree, if they mention anything at all.  So we should be looking for a slightly longer cowling ring in photos, and can approximate it in modelling by a ring of 20 thou card (0.5mm) in 1/72, or as appropriate in larger scales.  I suspect that a range of Fw.190 kits will probably include at least one cowling ring of that size.

[tempestfan]

Rodeike states (pp. 269 and 271) the only externally visible difference between A-8 and 9 was the number of fan blades. He also quotes a BMW Entwicklungsmitteilung dated 3 August 44 (p. 270) which states that F-600/801D-2, TU and TS were interchangeable - was the cowling ring "integral" with the engine?

 

The Gothas would go down well with Salzwedel being/having been a para base, I think. 

 

BTW, what's a "Focker-Wolf"? At least not the same typo as on the Smer Fw 56...

Edited June 11, 2021 by tempestfan
added the BTW... 2nd edit: added the 0 to 801

[Graham Boak]

Having come across a photo of a cowling ring lying on the floor, showing the cooler(s), I don't believe that it could have been integral.  The point is made that the Tx series of the BMW were "power egg"s, easily interchangeable, so presumably the earlier D series was slightly less so.  There would therefore be somewhat more work involved but the engines would pick up on the same mountings and have as much commonality as possible.  For example, if a larger oil cooler was required then it is reasonable to suggest that wider pipes would be required, but this may not require significant changes elsewhere.

 

However I'm not familiar with the term F-600/81D-2.  The F series never reached production so if this refers to an intended production variant of the F then this says nothing about the Fw.190A-8 and its D-series engine.

 

I've also seen it said that the 14-blade fan was not as successful as hoped and the earlier 12-blade fan was known to have been substituted.

[tempestfan]

14 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Having come across a photo of a cowling ring lying on the floor, showing the cooler(s), I don't believe that it could have been integral.  The point is made that the Tx series of the BMW were "power egg"s, easily interchangeable, so presumably the earlier D series was slightly less so.  There would therefore be somewhat more work involved but the engines would pick up on the same mountings and have as much commonality as possible.  For example, if a larger oil cooler was required then it is reasonable to suggest that wider pipes would be required, but this may not require significant changes elsewhere.

 

However I'm not familiar with the term F-600/81D-2.  The F series never reached production so if this refers to an intended production variant of the F then this says nothing about the Fw.190A-8 and its D-series engine.

 

I've also seen it said that the 14-blade fan was not as successful as hoped and the earlier 12-blade fan was known to have been substituted.

Sorry, that should have read 801D-2 - F-600 is given in the BMW document, with a footnote by Rodeike explainng that this relates to the 801D-2.

My line of thought was that if a longer cowling ring was required by the TS for technical reasons, then the engines would only be fully interchangeable if the ring was integral in power-egg style, as otherwise a different separate cowl ring would have been required. But perhaps that thought is a dead end street.

[Werdna]

3 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Rodeike states (pp. 269 and 271) the only externally visible difference between A-8 and 9 was the number of fan blades

 

That's probably correct in terms of 'visually identifiable' differences, in so much as a variance of 3cm in cowl length would be very difficult to spot standing right next to it - and practically impossible to discern from a pic...

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Seeing three centimetres of difference in a picture taken from that distance and that angle?

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

[Bozothenutter]

Is that the 3cm that was added to the radial engined ones?

That is visible by looking at the front edge of the wing root, there is an extra wing root panel in front of the original.

[Graham Boak]

The wing root extension was much earlier - A-3 to A-4 I believe.

 

re camouflage/bare metal wings.  It would be common for the leading edge to be painted even though the rest of the underside remained in bare metal.  This is commonly shown in the Japo books on the Dora.  What this implies for the undercarriage door I can't be sure: I'd have thought that it would be painted too.  Perhaps a look in the Dora books could present a hint.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

According to the book "Oberflächenschutzverfahren und Anstrichstoffe der Deutschen Luftfahrtindustrie und Luftwaffe 1935-1945" by Michael Ullmann Focke Wulf Fw 190 with completely unpainted undersides except the flaps were the rule at the end of the war.Apart the cockpit all interior were also left unpainted.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Graham Boak]

The Japo Dora books have gone into much more analysis of the examples found, and linking them to production sites and batches.  "at the end of the war" is vague, and clearly only applied, if it did in full, to final production.  Aircraft remaining in service showed a considerable range of variation in the matter.  I see no reason why things would have been any different for A-8/9 production.