GiampieroSilvestri Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 (edited) I found the same picture of a JG301 Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8 on three different web pages.One page describes the foto has been taken at Salzwedel in April 1945.The other page that it was taken also in April 1945 but at Halberstadt and the third that it is not a Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8 but a A-9.The aircraft is included in the Eduard 1/48 scale Fw 190 A-9 kit but the camouflage colours are completely different from the colour picture.Halberstadt is in the south of Sachsen Anhalt while Salzwedel is the most northern town.It is absolute confusion. Saluti Giampiero Edited June 4, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Pictures would help....😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted June 4, 2021 Author Share Posted June 4, 2021 Here are the pictures. Saluti Giampiero 1.Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8 2.Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-9 found at Halberstadt 3.Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8 found at Salzwedel 4.Eduard Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Maybe google maps can help? If the places still exist and if the buildings still exist. Nice detective job 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 https://www.pennula.de/flughafen-halberstadt.htm Halberstadt looks to have had a long building with windowed roof 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozothenutter Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Not seeing anything like that building in Salzwedel https://www.mil-airfields.de/deutschland/hubschrauberlandeplatz-salzwedel-nva-gt-hs-16.htm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Correctly identifying the WNr would be the easiest way to establish whether A-8 or A-9, I would guess. However, the number that Eduard is speculating (260147) does not seem to correspond to any number blocks issued for either the A-8 or A-9, as far as I can tell. Others may have access to more detailed info than me. Other forums describe this a/c as A-9 WNr 490041 at Salzwedel. A very similar looking a/c, red 22, also of JG301, with a close WNr (490044) is also documented, supposedly at Langensalza - so perhaps Eduard or others have confused the two. Assuming of course the above info is correct - I'm simply sharing it, not offering it as verification. Other than that, I think the only other visual differences between A-8 and A-9 were slightly longer cowling to accommodate a larger oil cooler ring. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.R.Morrison Posted June 4, 2021 Share Posted June 4, 2021 Eduard’s Werknummer choice for this FW 190A-9, 206147 was with the II./JG 301 when it crashed 22.Feb. 1945 near Stendal due to engine trouble. (Ref.: Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (microfilm roll #12); Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1199, p.7) Other ‘neighboring’ Werknummer with the JG 301 included (FW 190A-9) 206141, “weiße 15” of the 5.Staffel, lost 2.Feb. 1945 to ‘friendly’ Flak west of Schwerin/Warthe, Uffz. Friedrich Jokiel killed. and 206148, “weiße 13” of the 5./JG 301 lost 8.Feb. 1945, Uffz. Ullrich Filipp, MIA after an air battle. The JG 301 was unique in using a horizontal bar with the color indicating the Gruppe – in the case of this “gelbe 8” of the 3./JG 301, the white bar indicated I Gruppe. GRM 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank152 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 9 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said: Eduard’s Werknummer choice for this FW 190A-9, 206147 was with the II./JG 301 when it crashed 22.Feb. 1945 near Stendal due to engine trouble. (Ref.: Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (microfilm roll #12); Gen.Qu.6.Abt.-BA-MA Signatur RL 2 III/1199, p.7) Other ‘neighboring’ Werknummer with the JG 301 included (FW 190A-9) 206141, “weiße 15” of the 5.Staffel, lost 2.Feb. 1945 to ‘friendly’ Flak west of Schwerin/Warthe, Uffz. Friedrich Jokiel killed. and 206148, “weiße 13” of the 5./JG 301 lost 8.Feb. 1945, Uffz. Ullrich Filipp, MIA after an air battle. The JG 301 was unique in using a horizontal bar with the color indicating the Gruppe – in the case of this “gelbe 8” of the 3./JG 301, the white bar indicated I Gruppe. GRM As ever great information, I always sit up and listen when you post. 12 hours ago, Werdna said: I would guess. However, the number that Eduard is speculating (260147) does not seem to correspond to any number blocks issued for either the A-8 or A-9, as far as I can tell. If you'd have taken the time to look at the Eduard profile you'd have noticed they give the correct W.Nr and that the 260147 is just a typo. Hence the reason your W.Nr doesn't tally up! 😉🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 3 hours ago, tank152 said: If you'd have taken the time to look at the Eduard profile you'd have noticed they give the correct W.Nr and that the 260147 is just a typo. Hence the reason your W.Nr doesn't tally up! You're right. Next time, I'll be sure to read the Czech translation as well as the English. Your slightly pejorative tone does you no credit though.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank152 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, Werdna said: You're right. Next time, I'll be sure to read the Czech translation as well as the English. Your slightly pejorative tone does you no credit though.. I think you'll find Czech numbers are the same as ours. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, tank152 said: I think you'll find Czech numbers are the same as ours. 😉 Indeed they are - but I'm sure you know what I meant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank152 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, Werdna said: Indeed they are - but I'm sure you know what I meant Yes I gathered you was trying to be sarcastic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 10 minutes ago, tank152 said: Yes I gathered you was trying to be sarcastic Exactly - language matters. Choose it wisely. But I'm conscious we are going off topic here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank152 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, Werdna said: Exactly - language matters. Choose it wisely. But I'm conscious we are going off topic here... We are observant to aren't we. Also please don't tell me to choose anything wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 1 hour ago, tank152 said: We are observant to aren't we. Also please don't tell me to choose anything wisely. Like I said earlier, you come across as a bit confrontational - and we can now add 'patronising' as well. My suggestion was for you to choose your words a bit more carefully (wisely), but you are obviously free to ignore that - and it seems like you are determined to. But we should probably move on - the last word is yours, if you want it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt-92 Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Uh.. guys? Get a room or something. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 1 minute ago, alt-92 said: Uh.. guys? Get a room or something. Covid - no rooms available But it's getting awkward now, so I'll withdraw.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dov Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 Eduard’s Werknummer choice for this FW 190A-9, 206147 was with the II./JG 301 when it crashed 22.Feb. 1945 near Stendal. Did it really crash? Is this true or just an assumption? What is the Werknummer source from Eduard? Or again a multiple typing error? How reliable is the source? Who is behind it? If this particular aircraft really crashed, so I assume the photo can not be this aircraft. As in so many cases: You find a photo something in the web. One has the idea to make a kit or model from it. And we guess, because in this case Eduard refrain from telling the source. What is sure? That this photo shows a 190, which is not crashed. Where? No idea. Even if you think to have the clue, it is depending on the direction you take a picture. And even there is a building, how you know that no building was removed? All guess. Beside this, what we discuss here, you must also take into account something else. At earlier dates, every side of combatants tried to confuse the opposition party. By all means. Even fake types and variants of engines and armament. Be careful, not to get lost in confusion. As a modeller, I leave the Werknummer out. Pasta! Finish! Happy modelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 1 hour ago, dov said: If this particular aircraft really crashed, so I assume the photo can not be this aircraft. I think the inference from GRM's post (GRM - please correct me if I've misunderstood) is that the a/c in the pic might not be 206147, as that particular WNr was documented as lost, so therefore cannot be the a/c in the pic, as well as the conflicting info from the gruppe bar. Which is what you are also suggesting, I think. Even if the a/c was force landed, rather than properly 'crashed' - the prop is straight, the morane and loop antennas still seem to be intact.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 On 04/06/2021 at 13:16, GiampieroSilvestri said: I found the same picture of a JG301 Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8 on three different web pages.One page describes the foto has been taken at Salzwedel in April 1945.The other page that it was taken also in April 1945 but at Halberstadt and the third that it is not a Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-8 but a A-9.The aircraft is included in the Eduard 1/48 scale Fw 190 A-9 kit but the camouflage colours are completely different from the colour picture.Halberstadt is in the south of Sachsen Anhalt while Salzwedel is the most northern town.It is absolute confusion. Saluti Giampiero OK, so, is this a report or a complaint or cry for sympathy or is there any question left? 😉 For Halberstadt vs. Salzwedel we will have to locate the former airfields and check for buildings in the surrounding. (I'd love to! Were any 109s or 242/244 stationed at either place?) But in case we come to a judgement, what will be the benefit/consequence? 190 A-8 vs. A-9? Similar question, would "It is an A-8!" lead us to the conclusion "On all A-8 the wings were painted in RLM ... and ... with Balkenkreuze of pattern ... and there were never any patches or deviations!" (OK, I'll look A-8 vs. A-9 up - some day) When it comes to paint / colors chosen, I'd trust my eyes / interpretation more than I'd trust that profile. And my eyes are telling me "What is this? And how on earth was this color profile generated?" Oil cooler ring got partially sprayed over when cowling was sprayed - can this be found in the profile? Is there really a green hue to the cowling (old stock of Schwarzgrün used up) or is it just very dark grey (and film and light and postprocessing)? What about propeller blades? Do they match anything else in the pic? Do I agree on "rudder in 76" (though it seems logical it doesn't look like 76 to me, I'd try 75). The front most cooler ring looks like 76 to me, wheel covers dirty 76, some patches around the swastika look like 76 (plus mottel), rudder looks darker (and more blue) than that. The 242s (or is it a 244s?) wrecks give me an idea how RLM 65 would look in the pics, do they provide 70/71 as well? What is that olive mottle on the fuselage? What kind of canopy was mounted to that plane when it was operational? (would A-8 / A-9 / the Werknummer or Salzwedel vs. Halberstadt give us a bullet proof answer?) And so on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 PS: Do compare that grey on the 109 wreck's upper fuselage in the area of the Balkenkreuz to the 190's rudder ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GiampieroSilvestri Posted June 5, 2021 Author Share Posted June 5, 2021 (edited) It is not about to know where the picture was taken or what version of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 it shows.In my view it confirms once more that many Internet pages and printed publications are based often on speculations and suppositions.Following the theme three persons five different opinions.One of them will be right.🙂 Saluti Giampiero Edited June 5, 2021 by GiampieroSilvestri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted June 5, 2021 Share Posted June 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: Following the theme three persons five different opinions.One of them will be right.🙂 Alternatively, they could all be wrong and the correct information has yet to be uncovered - or perhaps it will never be uncovered. If you are after 100% historical accuracy, then late-war Luftwaffe is probably not the ideal choice.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 6, 2021 Share Posted June 6, 2021 22 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said: It is not about to know where the picture was taken or what version of the Focke Wulf Fw 190 it shows.In my view it confirms once more that many Internet pages and printed publications are based often on speculations and suppositions.Following the theme three persons five different opinions.One of them will be right.🙂 Saluti Giampiero As in real life, take everything with a grain of salt and check and cross check sources and facts. Checking "fw 190 salzwedel" gives https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG4/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw 190A8-II.JG4-Salzwedel-Germany-between-12th-Jul-31st-Aug-1944-ebay-02.html note 242 in background https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/6d/1a/456d1a2e2edda133e5ec5fa8966071a9.png same negative different crop https://wwiitracings.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/focker-wolf-190-at-salzwedel-airport-their-location-on-v-e-day-cliffie-graham-john-andrews-e-de-la-garza.jpg nice! aaaand https://www.google.com/maps/place/Salzwedel/@52.8356151,11.1997503,206m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47aface22f79c037:0x41dd4dce52c4553c!8m2!3d52.8503387!4d11.1646679 Checking "fw 190 halberstadt" gives" https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG301/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A9-7.JG301-Yellow-8-Halberstadt-1945-03.html https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG301/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A9-7.JG301-Yellow-8-Halberstadt-1945-01.html https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190A/JG301/pages/Focke-Wulf-Fw-190A9-7.JG301-Yellow-8-Halberstadt-1945-02.html At least the Löwenzahn is OK for April/March in Germany. Experts may measure the cowling's length and tell us "A8" oder "A9". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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