French colour help!

[Evil_Toast_RSA]

Picked up a Tamiya D.520 for a absolute bargain recently, and want to put it up for the French GB next month. But oh boy, paints! Tamiya supplies mixes using their own lines, but want to know if things have progressed since then in the realm of French paint knowledge. To save time, HERE is the IPMS Stockholm list. Polly S has gone under IIRC and Humbrol is a no go. 

 

What I've managed to dig up so far, but would like to know if I'm on the right track? Please note I cannot get the Aqueous (H) line here, yet , paints what I can get are Vallejo, Tamiya and Mr Color. 

 

Gris Bleu Clair - FS 25189.  VMC 904/VMA 109/Mr Colour C 367. Leaning towards the Mr Color offering myself. 

 

Gris Bleu Fonce - FS 35164. VMC 903/ Mr Color C 366. As above, Monsieur Color is my current thought. 

 

Terre Fonce - FS 30118. Oh boy, now the fun starts. No direct matches. From the limited stuff I've seen it's either a dark chocolate brown or a mid brown. Tamiya recommends XF-10, the closest I can come in the Mr Color line is C 29. How about XF-69 NATO Brown? 

 

Vert/Khaki -  FS 24233/34087. So, which one was it? Both come up in my searches. The Vert looks awfully close to XF-67 NATO Green, but Khaki? Mr Color I got C 304 or C 54? ( C 304 seems to be it!)

 

Cockpit interior I'm going with either X-3 Royal Blue or VMC 899 Dark Prussian Blue. 

 

So, is there an answer or should I just pull a Monty Python and fart in it's general direction and use whatever tickles the pickle? 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Evil_Toast_RSA
Added info

[VG 33]

Hello

 

Here is the rule I have been using for many years with Gunze Aqueous:

 

Gris bleu clair : 70% H67 + 30% H11

Gris bleu foncé : 50% H53 + 40% H30 + 10% H54

Vert : 90% H73 + 10% H11

Brun : 50% H84 + 50% H17.

 

Patrick

Edited June 6, 2021 by VG 33

[BS_w]

34 minutes ago, Evil_Toast_RSA said:

 

Cockpit interior I'm going with either X-3 Royal Blue or VMC 899 Dark Prussian Blue.

note: the first airplanes had their cockpit paint in "gris bleu", not in "bleu de nuit"(midnight blue) which was appear dec 39

 

28 minutes ago, VG 33 said:

Here is the rule I have been using for many years with Gunze Aqueous:

 

Gris bleu clair : 70% H67 + 30% H11

Gris bleu foncé : 50% H53 + 40% H30 + 10% H54

Vert : 90% H75 + 10% H11,  is it not H 73 instead H 75?

Brun : 50% H84 + 50% H17.

 

Patrick

[VG 33]

Yes positively H73 ! as H75 is grey.

 

Patrick

[Seawinder]

I built the Tamiya kit some years ago and recorded the following notes about the colors. I used Testors Model Master enamels, but the colors are generic enough to apply to other lines as well:

 

Under surfaces: Gris Bleu Claire—3 parts Dk. Ghost Gray FS.36320, 1 part each RLM 65 and Aggressor Gray FS.36251

Upper surfaces: Gris Bleu Foncé—FS.36173 F-15 Dark Gray OOB

Terre de Sienne—Leather and Burnt Umber mixed to taste.

 

As for the Kaki, I used some paint from an ancient bottle of Pactra International Colors. It's very much an olive drab. It may be accurate, but on the model it's hard to distinguish from the Terre de Sienne. If I had it to do over, I'd go with the greener version of the color; NATO Green would probably do nicely.

 

Here's some photos of my model so you can see what I mean:

https://seawinder.smugmug.com/France/Tamiya-Dewoitine-D520/

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Maybe this is of some help.

http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/camouflage/couleurs_francaises.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Steben]

12 hours ago, Evil_Toast_RSA said:

Picked up a Tamiya D.520 for a absolute bargain recently, and want to put it up for the French GB next month. But oh boy, paints! Tamiya supplies mixes using their own lines, but want to know if things have progressed since then in the realm of French paint knowledge. To save time, HERE is the IPMS Stockholm list. Polly S has gone under IIRC and Humbrol is a no go. 

 

What I've managed to dig up so far, but would like to know if I'm on the right track? Please note I cannot get the Aqueous (H) line here, yet , paints what I can get are Vallejo, Tamiya and Mr Color. 

 

Gris Bleu Clair - FS 25189.  VMC 904/VMA 109/Mr Colour C 367. Leaning towards the Mr Color offering myself. 

 

Gris Bleu Fonce - FS 35164. VMC 903/ Mr Color C 366. As above, Monsieur Color is my current thought. 

 

Terre Fonce - FS 30118. Oh boy, now the fun starts. No direct matches. From the limited stuff I've seen it's either a dark chocolate brown or a mid brown. Tamiya recommends XF-10, the closest I can come in the Mr Color line is C 29. How about XF-69 NATO Brown? 

 

Vert/Khaki -  FS 24233/34087. So, which one was it? Both come up in my searches. The Vert looks awfully close to XF-67 NATO Green, but Khaki? Mr Color I got C 304 or C 54? 

 

Cockpit interior I'm going with either X-3 Royal Blue or VMC 899 Dark Prussian Blue. 

 

So, is there an answer or should I just pull a Monty Python and fart in it's general direction and use whatever tickles the pickle? 

 

 

Fs30118 is almost dark earth, just a tad more greenish. "Field drab" will get you there. But I don't know how correct the 30118 reference to the french colour is... using that greenish brown with brownish green 34087 will indeed render a low contrast.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Steben

[Steben]

2 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Maybe this is of some help.

http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/camouflage/couleurs_francaises.html

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Those ral colours are very odd....

[Antti_K]

Hello guys,

 

here is a photo of one aircraft still in its original paint: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8032638

 

Maybe a good starting point for choosing (or mixing) paints.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Antti_K]

Here is my MS 406 in Finnish markings:

 

 

And for comparison, the wing of the same Caudron:

 

 

I used the following Humbrol enamels for my model:

 

Dark blue grey - Hu 27 (I'm not completely happy with that, the colour should be slightly lighter and blueish

Olive green - Hu 117 (an old tin, current paint is far more brighter)

Dark brown - Humbrol Authentic range paint for French aircraft

 

I also had a chance to compare my chosen paints against the real thing. Humbrol Authentic dark brown and "old" Hu-117 are excellent matches with the Caudron. Humbrol 27 is slightly too dark and grey.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[WARDOG]

I have struggled mightly for years in trying to match modern French colors for my Armee de L'Aire interceptors and bombers,  Aeronaval fighters and helicopters, and A.L.A.T. helicopters!

 

Many of the current paint manufacturers just Don't get it right, at least to my old eyes, anyway!

 

Allez, ma cousins Francaise, we NEED some correct paints!  There is definitely a market for them!

 

Glynn "WARDOG" Jacobs

Edited June 6, 2021 by WARDOG
Corrections

[Steben]

The green is mentioned as very comparable to dark olive drab 41. This would mean a slightly darker olive.
Reminds me of the "khaki" in ground forces in both Belgium and France (helmets, vehicles,....) around 1940. Examination of different objects led me to an array of colours which are mostly very close to British khaki green no 3 but rather a bit more to greyish/brownish side. Very close to flat PC10 variants. Definitely an olive drab, certainly not plain olive green.
Not sure about the air forces though. The pictures posted here would make me look for something close to "panzer" chocolate brown (RAL 8017) and a rather light olive drab like FS34088 (gunze H304)?.

Edited June 6, 2021 by Steben

[spitfire]

Here is a wartime colour photo which I used as a guide for my D520.

For my French aircraft builds I used Sovereign Colourcoats, ACF05, ACF07, ACF04, and Testors MM2109 for the undersides. For my later Bloch 152 and MS406 I used Xtracolor X127 for the undersides.

 

Cheers

 

Dennis

[Evil_Toast_RSA]

4 hours ago, Steben said:

Not sure about the air forces though. The pictures posted here would make me look for something close to "panzer" chocolate brown (RAL 8017) and a rather light olive drab like FS34088 (gunze H304)?.

 

 

Okay, getting somewhere! Will edit my first post for C 304 as Khaki. 

 

It's looking like for the Brown it's going to be a XF-10 + XF-1 mix, unless Mr Color Mahogany (C 42) can be substituted, but it looks like it has a reddish hue to it. 🤔

[Steben]

2 minutes ago, Evil_Toast_RSA said:

 

 

Okay, getting somewhere! Will edit my first post for C 304 as Khaki. 

 

It's looking like for the Brown it's going to be a XF-10 + XF-1 mix, unless Mr Color Mahogany (C 42) can be substituted, but it looks like it has a reddish hue to it. 🤔

XF64?

[Evil_Toast_RSA]

27 minutes ago, Steben said:

XF64?

Not following? 

 

At a guess, I'm not sure those pics linked showed the brown to have a reddish hue, and I'm pretty sure Mahogany is a dark red brown colour. 

 

If it is a reddish brown, then XF-64 + XF-1 could be used instead. 

[Steben]

37 minutes ago, Evil_Toast_RSA said:

Not following? 

 

At a guess, I'm not sure those pics linked showed the brown to have a reddish hue, and I'm pretty sure Mahogany is a dark red brown colour. 

 

If it is a reddish brown, then XF-64 + XF-1 could be used instead. 

True, but I knew exactly nothing about French air colours in 1940 upt ill now .
To me, it seems to have some red tones. And everyting suggest two tones were used: a dark earthy one and a lighter one.

[VG 33]

Hello

 

Here are two kits I built and painted with the recipe I wrote.

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234986334-172-rs-models-caudron-renault-cr-714-c1/

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234959123-172-azur-morane-saulnier-ms-406/

 

Patrick

 

On 6/4/2021 at 10:21 AM, VG 33 said:

Gris bleu clair : 70% H67 + 30% H11

Gris bleu foncé : 50% H53 + 40% H30 + 10% H54

Vert : 90% H73 + 10% H11

Brun : 50% H84 + 50% H17.

 

[Evil_Toast_RSA]

40 minutes ago, Steben said:

True, but I knew exactly nothing about French air colours in 1940 upt ill now .
To me, it seems to have some red tones. And everyting suggest two tones were used: a dark earthy one and a lighter one.

 

So, Mahogany or a Red Brown & Black mix it is! 

 

Thanks for the help everyone. 

 

@VG 33, will sit down one day and see what those Mr Hobby colours match to in the Mr Color range, and take it from there. Thanks! 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Evil_Toast_RSA

[Antti_K]

Hello guys,

 

I've seen both colours -US Olive Drab and French "Green" - and they aren't close equivalents. Olive drab is "dull" and darker whereas the French paint is a "light olive green". Out of Humbrol enamel range the "old" Hu 66 is the closest equivalent for US Olive Drab (at least to that seen on an Airacobra here in Finland). Hu 155 is close to olive drab but it is too light and too yellow-green.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[neilh]

Have you checked out the Hataka sets. This is the lacquer set I have been using for both a D520 and a Caudron .

 

https://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/product/early-wwii-french-airforce-set-orange-line-lacquer-hataka-htk-cs16/

[Steben]

2 hours ago, Antti_K said:

Hello guys,

 

I've seen both colours -US Olive Drab and French "Green" - and they aren't close equivalents. Olive drab is "dull" and darker whereas the French paint is a "light olive green". Out of Humbrol enamel range the "old" Hu 66 is the closest equivalent for US Olive Drab (at least to that seen on an Airacobra here in Finland). Hu 155 is close to olive drab but it is too light and too yellow-green.

 

Cheers,

Antti

Hu 66 seems dark and too bluish 😮 imho to be the standard ww2 olive drab I know
Hu 155 looks indeed slightly too "fresh yellowgreen". But Hu 155 and Hu 66 are so completely different, no?

[Steben]

52 minutes ago, neilh said:

Have you checked out the Hataka sets. This is the lacquer set I have been using for both a D520 and a Caudron .

 

https://www.scalemodelshop.co.uk/product/early-wwii-french-airforce-set-orange-line-lacquer-hataka-htk-cs16/

artwork looks more than ok. But don't know the colours.

[Antti_K]

11 minutes ago, Steben said:

Hu 66 seems dark and too bluish 😮 imho to be the standard ww2 olive drab I know
Hu 155 looks indeed slightly too "fresh yellowgreen". But Hu 155 and Hu 66 are so completely different, no?

 

Hello Steben,

 

I have only studied two different Airacobras, both of which are still in their original paint. My observations differ slightly from yours. Hu 66 has exactly the right value (brightness) but the saturation (chroma) is slightly too "drab". The paint should have just a tiny amount more of "olive". Hu 155 is too light and too fresh "yellow green" just as you have noticed too.

 

My problem is how to mix an exact colour. Adding any light olive green into the olive drab will likely make the paint turn out too light. One possibility is of course use Hu 66 straight out of the tin.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Steben]

Fs34088 still looks very close.... it is Aussie drab colour.