To rivet count, or not to rivet count, that is the question.

[One 48]

If it looks right, its fine with me.

[Max Headroom]

There are a number of modellers here whose work I openly admire knowing full well I could never achieve their level of skill. I do try and push my limits though just to see what I can do and am currently heaping attention on Revell’s old 1/32 Mosquito. Fabricating bits and pieces for the cockpit, mostly using internet photos and the mk.1 eyeball. Just don’t take a micrometer to it! I’ve had helpful advice along the way and corrected my bodgings as a result. Advice given and taken in a friendly spirit and the end result should be all the better for it.

 

Remember, this is supposed to be a fun hobby and we all have our own reasons, expectations and objectives, so long may it remain so.

 

Trevor

[Mike]

5 hours ago, Pin said:

The first message should be added to the forum rules.

It kind of is already.  Something like "Be polite and respectful to other members".  When you boil it down, that's all we ask of anyone

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

There are a number of modellers here whose work I openly admire knowing full well I could never achieve their level of skill. I do try and push my limits though just to see what I can do and am currently heaping attention on Revell’s old 1/32 Mosquito. Fabricating bits and pieces for the cockpit, mostly using internet photos and the mk.1 eyeball. Just don’t take a micrometer to it! I’ve had helpful advice along the way and corrected my bodgings as a result. Advice given and taken in a friendly spirit and the end result should be all the better for it.

 

Remember, this is supposed to be a fun hobby and we all have our own reasons, expectations and objectives, so long may it remain so.

 

Trevor

 

 

Well said Trevor

 

Made me think of all the reviews of new Uber Kits from way back in the Eighties and Nineties that were the "state of the art, perfect, must have" models of their day which are now looked down on as  flawed, incorrect and  a waste of time after two decades later and surpassed by new mouldings from much later generations.  

 

"There is no such thing as a perfect kit"  Discuss and hand in essays to teacher for marking by Thursday class. 

[Graham Boak]

Just remember that reviews have a purpose, which is generally not the same as that of a modeller seeking accuracy.  I was around in the Eighties and Nineties: I can assure you that there were just as many modellers willing to note and correct a model's imperfections as there are today.  Perhaps for them it was less easy to be publically point out such things.  The better, indeed most of the, kits of the Eighties and Nineties did provide a step forward in accuracy of outline and fit compared to their predecessors in the Fifties and Sixties: in more recent years the emphasis has shifted to interiors and sometimes a step forward in one direction has meant less attention paid to others.  But a "must have" model has never been a "perfect" one.  Some come close, thankfully, though I'm sure we could not agree on a list.

[Tojo72]

If it looks like a Tiger and is well done,I'm happy.I try to capture all the differences and details that are called for,but sometimes I don't succeed.So I like details but I guess I don't count rivets.

If someone offers constructive advice,I'm happy to listen if it's said in the right spirit.Sometines I can use it,other times it might be beyond my abilities,or I just choose not to.

If you post a build,you should expect criticism,it's up to you to apply it or not

[Head in the clouds.]

I try to achieve a good degree of accuracy, it is part of the learning curve in this wonderful and varied hobby, I sometimes let things go, other times it niggles and I have to do it, there are no rights or wrongs. Non of us are identical so it shows in our output, although I do believe in this; even models that fall below my standard will get an uplifting response, they are trying as hard as I am  within their own skill set and deserve as much praise as those at the pinnacle of this hobby.

 

Do not forget, it is a facsimile.  A model. A toy of sorts. It wont take you on holiday...

 

Lets all be nice...👍😄

[Mr T]

An interesting thread and I agree with a lot of the comments that have been made. What slightly depresses me is that we have been here before. When I was a lot more active as a club member and going to shows in the eighties there was always a couple of familiar faces who would be there picking fault with others models and pointing out what was wrong etc. This was pre Internet and so was not spread around as much as it might be today. Some magazine contributors also seem to have a bit of a superior air to their writing and giving the impression that if you didn't airbrush your models or do this that or another, you were no modeller and some dort of inferior being. 

Personally, I spend a lot of time on my hobby, having a bit more time now, but it is not the only thing in my life. I try to get things right, but if my 1/72nd Spitfire is 0.5mm short, no one is going to die as a result. 

[Steben]

Speechless nodding yes and pedantic rivet counting simply have miles and milions of shades between them.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Steben

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I like to get things as good as I can and always value when people spend their time not only flicking through my photographs and build threads but taking the time to tell me something. Of course it's always better to know something before I've done it rather than afterwards, but it doesn't always work out that way.

 

I try to remember that model making is a lonely hobby but a very inclusive one. People of all varieties enjoy it and whilst some are high of soft skills and very personable, others may for one of a thousand reasons be weaker on that front but still mean well. I recognise that I have a very short temper and when I decide someone is an absolute rocket of an individual it takes a lot to change my opinion of their character back to neutral - however 99.9% of the time I can choose to be happy that information offered was well intended and treat it as such.

 

As for other peoples' models, I'll usually try to only offer pre-emptive corrections whilst the information might still be useful, and if I see something I know is wrong already done I'll usually not comment further on it.

[Shorty84]

I'm always happy if 'rivet counters' chime into a discussion and share their knowledge about the finer details of a certain subject. Key is to share this knowledge in a respectful manner. I'm of the opinion that such discussions often derail because the information is brought across, on purpose or not, in a snobbish way which just creates a counter reaction. Then, when the fronts are hardened, it usually escalates quickly.

Of course, like every hobby, it sometimes attracts certain 'characters' who have to show off their superior knowledge and let everybody know.

 

Me personally, I can be a 'rivet counter' depending on the subject. For some, I'm just more passionate than about others. Mostly I'm happy if the shapes look good. Everything else (missing details, simplifications, ...) I can either correct myself, buy aftermarket or leave as is.

 

Here I may share some personal thoughts about another aspect of the accuracy discussions. I often see complaints from modellers that manufacturers get an (in their view) obvious detail wrong. Then I often feel that these expectations are not always realistic, and they fail to take into account that it is not possible for many of them to have the same, detailed knowledge about a subject like a person who has researched it for years or decades. In the end, manufacturers are limited by economic considerations too, and they have to work on a specific budget and schedule. At one point the work has to be finished, and the kit has to be released to free resources for the next project.

I remember the discussions when Revell released their then new Bf 109 in 1/32, and it was discovered that the spacing between the cowl guns was too narrow. At some point someone from the development team stepped in (a respected subject-matter expert) and explained that they noted this error during development, but management decided that enough time was spent on development and the kit had to be released.

Of course, some try harder to deliver an accurate product than others. But in the end, almost no kit manufacturer can afford to research a subject endlessly.

A good example of what happens when development is too protracted is the Su-33 which was started by Aviation Art. After two years of work, they sold the design to Kinetic which thankfully released the kit. 2 years later, Minibase took the original CAD and tweaked it further, adding a lot of small corrections to finally release it after another 3 years.

I think here we were lucky that the kit was released at all. In most cases, a failure like that of Aviation Art to bring the kit to the tooling stage would have spelled the end of the project.

Bottom line is, let's try to be nice to each other and accept that not everybody shares the same passion about a specific subject. Then, we all could enjoy our common hobby even more

 

Cheers

Markus

[NAVY870]

On 6/1/2021 at 5:30 PM, bentwaters81tfw said:

You want rivet counters? Try modellers restoring and painting 1:1 aircraft.

You avin a go my son?

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by NAVY870

[Tim R-T-C]

23 minutes ago, NAVY870 said:

You avin a go my son?

 

 

 

So long as no-one starts critcising the figure painting...

[bentwaters81tfw]

25 minutes ago, NAVY870 said:

You avin a go my son?

 

 

Azif?

https://www.bcwm.org.uk/museum-aircraft-vehicles/#jp-carousel-617

That's me on the right.

[PhoenixII]

Eee, I'll go to the foot of our stairs! Our Frank @bentwaters81tfw in pre crop lockdown mode, did thee run out of razor blades as well.........

[bentwaters81tfw]

10 minutes ago, PhoenixII said:

Eee, I'll go to the foot of our stairs! Our Frank @bentwaters81tfw in pre crop lockdown mode, did thee run out of razor blades as well.........

That must have been 3 years ago. Razor blades? Ah'll 'ave thee know yon cat 'as it's uses.

[Head in the clouds.]

19 hours ago, Shorty84 said:

I'm always happy if 'rivet counters' chime into a discussion and share their knowledge about the finer details of a certain subject.

Completely agree @Shorty84, they share their knowledge and it is up to us as an individual if we find it useful, many of them give their knowledge freely and in friendship.

Many of my models have been improved by people with a database type mind of the subject  and I could never achieve that kind of encyclopedic knowledge. Just maybe we are all rivet counters in our own way, we all search for details to enliven our models and make them more interesting and to be fair it can be a fine art in itself, the amount of things I miss is legendary.

 

@NAVY870 is a big bloke.....😉

[Chimpion]

1 hour ago, Head in the clouds. said:

@NAVY870 is a big bloke.....😉

Clearly the figure manufacturer got the scale all wrong! Or maybe it's the aircraft?

 

Back on subject, I'm often surprised  by the lack of criticism I get when posting my rather feeble efforts. If I do get a negative comment, at least it shows they cared enough to look at the post and respond. And I might learn something too.

 

 

 

[Head in the clouds.]

11 minutes ago, Chimpion said:

I'm often surprised  by the lack of criticism

Maybe a better word would be 'critique' criticism in my eye has sharp edges. People who don't critique your builds do care, I have no doubt, sometimes having every mistake pointed out can knock some back and may be unintentionally hurtful, I prefer to 'like' or comment in the positive and watch them mature and produce better builds. Conversely, if they say that 'this' or 'that' was hard or wrong then I may suggest a solution or a nudge in the right direction. Again, no right or wrongs.👍

[Mr T]

We all benefit from people sharing knowledge. I know I have learnt a lot from this forum, where people generally are pleasant and polite to each other. 

What has irritated me in the past has been those who in, person or print, denigrate the work of others and give an impression that their abilities are so much better than the common run of modellers that the rest of us are not worthy. They were thankfully few and on reflection they are around in all spheres of life. 

[Ratch]

Sometimes the advice comes over as condescending - I know better than you - and is hard to take when advice was sought in the build process when something could have been done about it but wasn't forthcoming.

Personally, I'm too long in the tooth to worry about accuracy. Someone can always find fault/errors/omissions. I have a wide field of interests and cannot claim to be an expert in any. But I enjoy sticking bits of plastic together and painting.

[alt-92]

That ^^ 

And some people would do well to take into account that with the current situation (yes that thing) there are a LOT of people returning to this hobby. What's the plan?
Scaring them off? Smacks of gatekeeping to me....

It's great that you've kept (f.e.) all SAM editions since 1986 in boxes in your attic, but it's not really helpful referencing that one limited edition print hardcopy from umpteen decennia ago that is nigh-unobtainable for reasonable prices in a complete state. 
If you want to share knowledge, great. Please do so with references that ARE reasonably available - online or offline - to someone starting out now. 

[Graham Boak]

Speaking for myself, I don't buy lots of modern references, partly because there is so much of it but not least because of the cost of the good ones I do buy.  Also because having the older ones means that some of the ones most useful to the totally uninformed beginner interested in the "standards", are full of stuff I've already got.  Plus, there are those created using the "hoover" approach of sucking in conveniently-available data/photos/profiles without actually applying editorial thought.  Alongside the good and useful stuff is a lot of dross now known to be just plain wrong.  That doesn't mean that a newcomer wouldn't benefit from them as a starting point, but it does mean that those of us who over the years have struggled to an understanding of what was going on, are not going to buy nor care to quote from these sources. And if the one source that actually answers the fairly abtruse point raised by one newcomer has to be answered from a reference written before he was born, then so be it.

 

You want information on an Albemarle, then there is only one good source of any depth, and it happens to be recent.  It won't be, 20 years down the line, but there's unlikely to be another its equal or better.  If you want a good guide (if incomplete) to RAF camouflage colours and uses in WW2, then you need the Arms&Armour Press book of the 90s.  If you want to know about Hurricane performance in any detail, then you go back to the Macdonald monograph of the early 70s (or was it late 60s?).    There is no single cut-off date on good information, and unfortunately there is no way of making myths and errors disappear, just because they've been exposed.  To mention one small one: one Gladiator on Malta was fitted with two extra machine guns in the upper wing.  This was not some amazing improvisation by a talented engineer (although he certainly was just that).  It was a standard option on the Sea Gladiator.  To the best of my knowledge, this information is only found in the Macdonald Monograph, approximate dates as for the Hurricane one.

 

However, it amazes me just how many of these older books and even magazines can be found without ridiculous prices, as long as you avoid Amazon's pricing algorithms.  Of course this may take a little effort.  Also, there are times where a personal contact can result in a scan of the appropriate information.  Of course you can just take your informant's word for it, but I wouldn't recommend that...

 

 

[Max Headroom]

To further what @Graham Boak said, it’s also worth looking in second hand book shops or book fairs. If you know what you’re looking for, or recognise a trusted author, there are some bargains out there. For example I picked up The Aircraft of 100 Group by Martin Streetly few years ago for a fiver at an antiques fair in Chester (pre pandemic they were monthly in the Northgate Arena). The seller knew that it was worth more but was happy to sell it to someone who would appreciate it. A quick Googling now shows most at north of £35!

 

Trevor

[NAVY870]

18 hours ago, Tim R-T-C said:

 

So long as no-one starts critcising the figure painting...

Should see it these days, somebody went silly with the grey dry brushing

13 hours ago, Head in the clouds. said:

Completely agree @Shorty84, they share their knowledge and it is up to us as an individual if we find it useful, many of them give their knowledge freely and in friendship.

Many of my models have been improved by people with a database type mind of the subject  and I could never achieve that kind of encyclopedic knowledge. Just maybe we are all rivet counters in our own way, we all search for details to enliven our models and make them more interesting and to be fair it can be a fine art in itself, the amount of things I miss is legendary.

 

@NAVY870 is a big bloke.....😉

I may have porked up a touch