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Squadron Codes KS - maybe on Spitfires


Ed Russell

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The squadron code KS is generally associated with the Station Flight at Tarrant Rushton and generally thought to have beeen allocated but not used. There are several mentions of this in literature and on the internet. Combat Codes is perhaps the most authoritative. However in the Czech publication Letectvi and Kosmonautika No.5/2021  there is an article on  Spitfires in the defence of Scapa Flow and some evidence from ORBs and pilots' logbooks that KS codes may have been used there - in particular by 313 (Czech) Squadron. No KS photos were available. Tarrant Rushton and Skeabrae are about as far apart as you can get in the UK so it's unlikely that pilots may have just borrowed something for a flight and put the station codes in their logbook.

Does anyone have a photo of anything at all with a KS code on it?

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Hi

    just a random thought

   but if it was just one aircraft at skeabrea 

   is it possible the spitfire could be carrying personal codes KS 

    cheers

       jerry 

 

   

   

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It's a good thought Jerry, and one that I had too but....

(1) there are no KS codes reported on the WW2 list of personal codes

(2) there are several Spitfires listed. I will extract a list from the article.

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I've found a number of references to 313 Sq as having KZ codes, which is probably a mistake for the next unit in a simple list, namely 513 Sq.  The actual code, as seem in Spitfire photos, was RY.  I was wondering is KS was a mistake for KZ, but apparently not.  This posting is to warn others off this false path.

 

But also to suggest looking at 312 Sq, as they are the ones to have donated DU to the Station Flight.  It was normal AFAIK for the resting units to recode the Mk.Vs but nothing I've seen says anything about  high altitude aircraft of the Station Flight.  Clearly none of the immediately following units marked these, as DU is acknowledged as the codes for the Station Flight early in the next year.

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Ok, now I've read the article (in internet translation - thanks Ed) I see that it is dealing with a later stage, September 1944.  I would suggest that we have a gap in the records being filled, as has happened so many times before.  Now we know that there were Spitfire Mk.VIIIs at Skaebrae with KS codes, before we didn't.  Where the codes came from remains a mystery, whether or not they were in use before 313 Sq (as seems likely to me) is an unknown.  I'm sure the authors regarded Combat Codes as the "best so far" account rather than the last word on the subject.

 

Good.  More photos of Mk.VIIs in Orkney for us, more serial/code links for the High Altitude Fighter scheme.

 

As they say in science: the more you know, the more questions are raised.

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A Flight Lieutenant with personal codes?  That's posh!  A man with ideas above his station.  However this was in Aden in the 60s on Hunters, a different incarnation.

 

There are no codes or serials listed for WW2 with these units in "Support Squadrons..." either.  First time around used Anson, second Wellington, the latter becoming 172 Sq listed in "Combat Codes" as LF, OG, 1 and WN.  Neither LF nor OG are quoted as being carried.  However as there appears to be no connection with Orkney anywhere, we can let this little diversion slide. 

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Just to throw in a snippet of info, which will probably have no bearing whatsover on Ed's original post, but 602 City of Glasgow Sqn were in the Orkneys late January-February 1944. There are a couple of short chapters in Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show" which relate some experiences while based at Skeabrae, including flying a high-altitude Spitfire. Unfortunately, no photos (of course!) but maybe 602's ORB could provide a lead.

 

Cheers,

Mark

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2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Just to throw in a snippet of info, which will probably have no bearing whatsover on Ed's original post, but 602 City of Glasgow Sqn were in the Orkneys late January-February 1944. There are a couple of short chapters in Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show" which relate some experiences while based at Skeabrae, including flying a high-altitude Spitfire. Unfortunately, no photos (of course!) but maybe 602's ORB could provide a lead.

 

Cheers,

Mark

I had a look at 602 and nothing, I also went back over 453 who were there from October 1943 and nothing.  Where the VIIs are used by 453 it gives the aircraft letter but no squadron code; G=MB765, Y=MB828, Z=MB763

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7 minutes ago, M20gull said:

I had a look at 602 and nothing, I also went back over 453 who were there from October 1943 and nothing.  Where the VIIs are used by 453 it gives the aircraft letter but no squadron code; G=MB765, Y=MB828, Z=MB763

Ah well, another blind alley I'm afraid. C'est la vie!

 

Cheers,

Mark

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5 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Just to throw in a snippet of info, which will probably have no bearing whatsover on Ed's original post, but 602 City of Glasgow Sqn were in the Orkneys late January-February 1944. There are a couple of short chapters in Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show" which relate some experiences while based at Skeabrae, including flying a high-altitude Spitfire. Unfortunately, no photos (of course!) but maybe 602's ORB could provide a lead.

 

Cheers,

Mark

According to the caption, the famous photos of MD114 DU-G at Skeabrae, as reproduced in Spitfire At War 2, p.80, show the aircraft while it was being operated by 602 Squadron.  Circumstantial support for this is provided by a Spitfire coded Lx-V: in the background of one of the pictures: LO-V?

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31 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

According to the caption, the famous photos of MD114 DU-G at Skeabrae, as reproduced in Spitfire At War 2, p.80, show the aircraft while it was being operated by 602 Squadron.  Circumstantial support for this is provided by a Spitfire coded Lx-V: in the background of one of the pictures: LO-V?

That would make sense as Clostermann refers to his "faithful old LO*D" while with 602. I think 602 used the high altitude Spitfires that were already at Skeabrae, which is why I wondered if their ORB might have helped. But hey ho! a blind alley it is! :) 

 

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1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

That would make sense as Clostermann refers to his "faithful old LO*D" while with 602. I think 602 used the high altitude Spitfires that were already at Skeabrae, which is why I wondered if their ORB might have helped. But hey ho! a blind alley it is! :)

 

I think they also used the ‘clipped, clapped and cropped’ (their words) Vbs left behind by 453. Clostemann’s book describes the fun-filled train trip they had to get to the Orkneys!  MD114 (corrected from my erroneous 118) arrives at Skeabrae while 602 are there and is used by them at least once.

Edited by M20gull
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It was the practice for the Mk.Vs to be retained in Orkney.  Only the squadron personnel transferred, leaving their Mk.IXs behind in the south.  It is not necessarily true that the ones in Orkney were the LF Mk.Vs, but just ordinary run-of-the-mill F Mk.Vs.  Looking at the serials will doubtless tell.  Despite their bad reputation, below 5,000ft (and a bit) the LF Mk.Vs would out-perform the Mk.IXs, which is not where our gallant fighter lads liked to be at this stage of the war.  Of course, that was where the hit-and-run Jabos were.  I suspect the LF Mk.Vs were retained in the south too: they'd certainly have been totally useless chasing after Luftwaffe PR flights.

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8 hours ago, M20gull said:

Where the VIIs are used by 453 it gives the aircraft letter but no squadron code; G=MB765, Y=MB828, Z=MB763

Photographic evidence would suggest that these serials were associated with the code DU. I haven't seen any pictures of them with just individual letters. The chronology of fighter squadrons on "R&R" 😀 at Skeabrae would suggest they were painted by 312 in June 1942 and these codes were retained by future users.

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On 02/06/2021 at 23:48, Ed Russell said:

Photographic evidence would suggest that these serials were associated with the code DU. I haven't seen any pictures of them with just individual letters. The chronology of fighter squadrons on "R&R" 😀 at Skeabrae would suggest they were painted by 312 in June 1942 and these codes were retained by future users.

To follow this up I note that DK Decals have MB763 as KS-Z in their 313 Squadron set. This plane was damaged at Skeabrae in July 1944 when 313 Squadron were based there. Is there a photo of DU codes on VIIs other than MD114?

Edited by M20gull
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This is actually where my investigation began.....

 

51235417614_609f1bfac1_k.jpg

 

My aim was to review the DK Decals set. One question that has come up in discussion with other modellers, and will only be answered by photos that may not exist, is whether MB763 should be in the High Altitude Fighter scheme. However, MB763 was an early Mk VII and may well have been in DFS as shown.

RY is 313 Squadron's code.

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Ed,

 

If you refer to Red Roo decal RRD7242, you will see that it has DU-G MB765, DU-Y MB828, and DU-Z MB763 all in DFS along with DU-G MD114 in the High Altitude scheme.  I supplied you scans of the photos of the MB serialled airframes with 453 Sqn which clearly showed them to carry DU codes and be painted in DFS colours. Photos came from a Sqn member that I interviewed in the 1980s.

 

These three airframes were then replaced in the Station Flight by later MD serialled airframes which took up the same individual codes. MD114 DU-G was one of them All three were believed to be in High Altitude scheme, and the photos of MD114 later with 602 Sqn show such.

 

So yes there are other photos of DU coded Mk.VIIs. 

 

I have no doubt that MB763 was likely always in DFS but the interesting thing is that apparently it was still up there in the Orkneys if it was damaged with 313 Sqn in July 1944. I have no info on the 'KS' codes as Franta from DK Decals did that sheet with his Czech contacts and I was not involved.

 

Steve Mackenzie

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  • 2 months later...

I have been wandering through squadron ORBs for Skeabrae (looking for confirmation one way or the other as to whether the VIIs were modified) and in December 1944 the then-resident 611 Squadron make a number of flights in Mk VIIs.  When they are flying IXs they give the serials but for the VIIs just the aircraft codes:  KS-G, KS-X , KS-Y and ?A-B.  The last one looks like EA-B but is a bit unclear; 611 should have been using FY-.  G and Y are letters used earlier with the DU- reference.  I'll keep looking.

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9 hours ago, M20gull said:

I have been wandering through squadron ORBs for Skeabrae (looking for confirmation one way or the other as to whether the VIIs were modified) and in December 1944 the then-resident 611 Squadron make a number of flights in Mk VIIs.  When they are flying IXs they give the serials but for the VIIs just the aircraft codes:  KS-G, KS-X , KS-Y and ?A-B.  The last one looks like EA-B but is a bit unclear; 611 should have been using FY-.  G and Y are letters used earlier with the DU- reference.  I'll keep looking.

441 Squadron replace 611 on 31 Dec 44 and use VIIs in February and March 1945 but there are no details beyond the number of non-operational  hours, 2 and 23 respectively.

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