AMMO Booklet on correct painting of early War RAF has incorrect colour !

[Merlin]

Hi,

https://www.themodellingnews.com/2021/05/read-n-reviewed-how-to-paint-wwii-raf.html#more

My attention is drawn to this booklet immediately by the very wrong colours of green and brown, ironic given the title, nothing like the correct RAF Dk Geen and Dk Earth. As this is all about how to model an early war Spitfire, this is not a good start, and would point to AMMO products as having created a very bad paint set, one of the worst green/brown paints for eerly war I have ever seen in an image,  I would thus warn modellers of the Battle of Britain to proceed with caution, take on board methods but not the colours in use, the interior cockpit grey green doesnt fare any better. The reference for the correct colours is the RAF Museum Series  Volume 3 book British Aviation Colours of World war Two, 1976, which has 100% accurate actual paint chips in the rear, the only book ever produced that has such, this may explain the various manufacturers own ideas on what the colours should be. However the Spitfire at Cosford is in these colours. Certainly AMMO and GS have got the green and brown wrong. I would confidently say Sovereign Paints would be okay as Jamie has matched the Luftwaffe colours to Merrick/Kiroff's camo and Mkgs 2 volume set (the bible) , the only company to have done so as far as I know, and may well have taken the same approach with the RAF, ask to be sure. Steve of Warbird Colours will also tell you the RAF book is the bible, incredible that no one has produced an RAF paint chip chart reproducing these colours since 1976.

 

I see lovely models spoilt with the incorrect Green / Brown simply through trust being applied in paints bought off the shelf, assumption applied of the paint makers must have researched the colours etc. Well they all faded and varied anyway is often said, just to smoke screen the fact that no effort was made to find out what the green and brown actually looked like,.  Refer to Cosfords spitfire in DAYLIGHT, the paints were matched to RAF archives and also matched the book when offered up using grey card with windows in it,  the book was created using the archives so a match was not surprising.

 

Merlin

Edited May 28, 2021 by Merlin
add images

[Troy Smith]

11 minutes ago, Merlin said:

My attention is drawn to this booklet immediately by the very wrong colours of green and brown, ironic given the title, nothing like the correct RAF Dk Geen and Dk Earth. As this is all about how to model an early war Spitfire, this is not a good start, and would point to AMMO products as having created a very bad paint set, one of the worst green/brown paints for eerly war I have ever seen in an image,

Hi Merlin

May you missed this thread

But lots of paint companies mess these up, and Airfix STILL recommend Humbrol 30 for Dark Green.

 

15 minutes ago, Merlin said:

incredible that no one has produced an RAF paint chip chart reproducing these colours since 1976.

Because it's not a German subject! 

 

16 minutes ago, Merlin said:

I would confidently say Sovereign Paints would be okay as Jamie has matched the Luftwaffe colours to Merrick/Kiroff's camo and Mkgs 2 volume set (the bible) , the only company to have done so as far as I know, and may well have taken the same approach with the RAF, ask to be sure.

@Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies uses the museum chips https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/blogs/sovereign-about-us-research-and-development

 

I'd really like a decent set of Acyrlics I could trust,  Xtracrlix have been highly rated, but doing some tests in the last few days their Dark Green and Dark Earth are closeish to the book chips, but not close enough....

 

 

[JackG]

If you want a MAP/RAF paint chip chart in digital format, contact Nick Millman at his blog.

http://www.aviationofjapan.com/

 

These were measured from original MAP paint swatches: 

16 page PDF with 31 colour chips, FS 595, Munsell, RAL & Methuen equivalents plus usage notes - available now £12.99 via email.

 

It may not be handy for all as it is something to be viewed on your screen.  Suppose you could print them out, but I find the switch from digital to cmyk does alter the colours slightly, usually darker.

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, Merlin said:

The reference for the correct colours is the RAF Museum Series  Volume 3 book British Aviation Colours of World war Two, 1976, which has 100% accurate actual paint chips in the rear, the only book ever produced that has such

Hardcover
from $635.98 

 

Not asking for much, are you

 

Anyways: AMMO's books and such are meant to sell AMMO products, not to be the be-all and end-all of accuracy. 

 

Those who are interested in getting as good as a result possible matching colours will spend effort in doing so. 
Others are more casual about it. Not the end of the world, really. 

[Graham Boak]

Usually available for about a tenth of the price.

[Werdna]

43 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Anyways: AMMO's books and such are meant to sell AMMO products, not to be the be-all and end-all of accuracy. 

 

As above - the 'solution book' is effectively just an advertising brochure for Mig products and should be treated as such.  Having said that, I'm sure there's some decent hints and tips in there, but its not going to recommend using anything other than Mig colours, by definition.  And Mig certainly isn't alone is producing some colours which deviate from many of the standard references.  But they're certainly not going to say anything like "For best results, use AK" (or Gunze, or insert alternative paint brand of your choice)....

[janneman36]

58 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Hardcover
from $635.98 

 

Not asking for much, are you

 

Anyways: AMMO's books and such are meant to sell AMMO products, not to be the be-all and end-all of accuracy. 

 

Those who are interested in getting as good as a result possible matching colours will spend effort in doing so. 
Others are more casual about it. Not the end of the world, really. 

Got that one in m library and bought it for around twenty euro’s on the bay four years ago in immaculate condition...maybe you want mine for $550😉

I always keep it at hand when mixing my own brews..
Anyway that ammo book about how to paint your early spitty looks pretty awfull to me ...

This is off course my own opinion and I sorry if I offend someone!

 

cheers, Jan

[Ed Russell]

3 hours ago, Merlin said:

incredible that no one has produced an RAF paint chip chart reproducing these colours since 1976.

There was a company in Australia which produced a colour chip card based on that book. I was given a copy for review but unfortunately nearly all of the colours were wrong. I think he managed to retrieve the few he had sold but if you see such a card set, treat with great caution.

I got my mint condition copy of the book from a bookshop in Norwich for a few pounds.

[Merlin]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I'd really like a decent set of Acyrlics I could trust,

Hi Troy,

I worked my way through all Dk Green and Dk Earth I could find in my stash, which was GS smelly, Mr H aqueous, Lifecolor, Valejo white top, Xtracrylics, Phoenix precision Paint, Humbrol, American one cant remember name well known, and only Valejo was of use. There is a thread somewhere on BM of what shades are best, it differs from my finding on the Brown, but agrees on the Green, I need to test the other brown but my gut feeling is that its a tad orangey and I dont see the orange in that Dk Brown that model paint manufacturers seem to see.

Folk use Acrylics not because they are correct but because they are acrylics. You may need to mix your own, firstly you need a colour reference to refer to. I seem to think the green and brown still exist in a BS fandeck somewhere, I may be wrong.

Its about time someone colour matched perfectly that chart and made up a few hundred charts !   1976..honestly its a joke no one wants to help modellers to get the RAF right.

 

Digital isnt really much use, trouble is sRGB has a smaller gamut than AdobeRGB, internet uses sRGB, and the area of gamut that gets excluded is...the greens ...! cmyk is unable to replicate some colours, I would need to consult my cmyk tables chart to see if the Dk Green and Dk Earth were there, but printed colour is not the same as pigment colour.

Certainly colour matching to a monitor is NO GO, backlit colours cannot be colour matched to, a guide at best, especially as one needs a colour calibrated monitor to start with.

 

Cybermodeller (see website) scans paints with his scanner device and portrays them as RGB so one can compare for what matches the target colour, he uses the RAF chart from what I recall.

 

The thing about that AMMO guide is that they are willing to show off their bad paint colours in such a big way, makes me distrust all their range and if trying to get some RAF colours I would put considering them last. They need to do some research, they have done nothing it seems. My chart photo and the two different sourced photos from their guide say it all.

 

Merlin.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Merlin

[woody37]

I've found Mr Hobby acrylic and MRP lacquer to be a good match for dark earth and Tamiya XF-81 great for dark green. 

[Nobby Clarke]

5 hours ago, Merlin said:

 

Merlin, I'm curious to know how you determined the sRGB values indicated in the colour photo of the RAF Museum colour chart at the very beginning of this post: Dark Earth 109 89 70 and Dark Green 72 74 65. Did you use a spectrophotometer or similar instrument to make these measurements?

Cheers, Nobby

 

[Rolls-Royce]

I was curious about that myself, Nobby...

Edited May 29, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[Steben]

I love mixing colours! I just haven't got that book yet. I finally got the Chory book for wehrmacht colours. This resulted in quite some insight. Don't have the fortune around though to buy all chip sources at once.
Is there a diffeence between the colour cover and the green with B/W picture? (or is it hardcover vs paperback etc?)

Edited May 29, 2021 by Steben

[Whitewolf]

Must admit I found the Gunze/Mr Hobby colours to look the part.

[Steben]

Just found and ordered the book second hand with colour picture on the cover .... 44 euro incl shipping  
I couldn't miss out on that one

Edited May 29, 2021 by Steben

[Charlie Hugo]

Mine with the colour photograph is a hard cover edition. Original cost 10.95 pounds

[alt-92]

2 hours ago, Steben said:

Just found and ordered the book second hand with colour picture on the cover .... 44 euro incl shipping  
I couldn't miss out on that one

Oi! That was you then.. Halfway through the process - POOOF gone.

 

-- 

My take on this colour business is to get it as correct as possible* , where possible encompasses availability of paints in preferred medium, checklists from here and other boards, trials, feedback from specialists, and most importantly: It also has to look right to the one who will be seeing the model on a day-in day-out basis.

 

 

 

[Steben]

17 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Oi! That was you then.. Halfway through the process - POOOF gone.

 

-- 

My take on this colour business is to get it as correct as possible* , where possible encompasses availability of paints in preferred medium, checklists from here and other boards, trials, feedback from specialists, and most importantly: It also has to look right to the one who will be seeing the model on a day-in day-out basis.

 

 

 

Oops...
Sorry for what it is worth... My days of doubt are gone now. Years of missed chances fed that.
These things are gold for a guy who does almost nothing but looking for mixes and references...
But in return you might see mixes coming up which makes people make their own swatches!

Edited May 29, 2021 by Steben

[politicni komisar]

12 hours ago, Merlin said:

Hi,

https://www.themodellingnews.com/2021/05/read-n-reviewed-how-to-paint-wwii-raf.html#more

My attention is drawn to this booklet immediately by the very wrong colours of green and brown, ironic given the title, nothing like the correct RAF Dk Geen and Dk Earth. As this is all about how to model an early war Spitfire, this is not a good start, and would point to AMMO products as having created a very bad paint set, one of the worst green/brown paints for eerly war I have ever seen in an image,  I would thus warn modellers of the Battle of Britain to proceed with caution, take on board methods but not the colours in use, the interior cockpit grey green doesnt fare any better. The reference for the correct colours is the RAF Museum Series  Volume 3 book British Aviation Colours of World war Two, 1976, which has 100% accurate actual paint chips in the rear, the only book ever produced that has such, this may explain the various manufacturers own ideas on what the colours should be. However the Spitfire at Cosford is in these colours. Certainly AMMO and GS have got the green and brown wrong. I would confidently say Sovereign Paints would be okay as Jamie has matched the Luftwaffe colours to Merrick/Kiroff's camo and Mkgs 2 volume set (the bible) , the only company to have done so as far as I know, and may well have taken the same approach with the RAF, ask to be sure. Steve of Warbird Colours will also tell you the RAF book is the bible, incredible that no one has produced an RAF paint chip chart reproducing these colours since 1976.

 

I see lovely models spoilt with the incorrect Green / Brown simply through trust being applied in paints bought off the shelf, assumption applied of the paint makers must have researched the colours etc. Well they all faded and varied anyway is often said, just to smoke screen the fact that no effort was made to find out what the green and brown actually looked like,.  Refer to Cosfords spitfire in DAYLIGHT, the paints were matched to RAF archives and also matched the book when offered up using grey card with windows in it,  the book was created using the archives so a match was not surprising.

 

Merlin

 

AMMO paints are far from what they are all supposed to be just a commercial move. They are also harder to work with and the colors deviate. I avoid them and their publications, which also mislead with the look of aircraft products.I know Mig Jammirez personally to such comments the answer is important to sell.

 

In my opinion, MRP.HATAKA, Gunze and Tamiya are still the most authentic laquer.

Enamel is Colorcoats (WEM)

Acrilics "HATAKA" Xtracrilic.

 

The debate will probably go on indefinitely.

 

I would avoid this and buy a good book (winglader) and verified paints.

My more experienced are such in all 47+ years of plastic kit building.

 

P.k

 

 

 

 

[Rabbit Leader]

3 hours ago, Whitewolf said:

Must admit I found the Gunze/Mr Hobby colours to look the part.

They once were, however Gunze have recently changed their paint formula and some paints appear to be quite different. (In my opinion) the new Dark Green (H73) is still quite usable, however I’m afraid to say the new Dark Earth (H72) is definitely not. Thankfully I recently came across the AK Real colour range of pants and honestly think that their Dark Earth (RC287) paint is actually better than Gunze’s old stuff. 
 

Cheers.. Dave 

[alt-92]

Not sticking to one particular brand or type does make life easier. 
you just have to be a bit more careful using lacquers, acrylics and hybrids together. 

[politicni komisar]

30 minutes ago, Rabbit Leader said:

They once were, however Gunze have recently changed their paint formula and some paints appear to be quite different. (In my opinion) the new Dark Green (H73) is still quite usable, however I’m afraid to say the new Dark Earth (H72) is definitely not. Thankfully I recently came across the AK Real colour range of pants and honestly think that their Dark Earth (RC287) paint is actually better than Gunze’s old stuff. 
 

Cheers.. Dave 

Yes the acrylic H line have been changed. I have used this set as I see it is also from the production. Because they like Tamiya are changing the recipe paints new rules of objection to health.

 

 

https://www.mr-hobby.com/en/product1/category_7/97.html

 

P.k

[Paul Alan Bardell]

 

 

Mine has the green cover and is Hard Back, Very glad I bought this about 40 years ago, and it was quite rare even then.

 

[Scimitar F1]

I have to say I am in the if it looks right camp on this. I think Tamiya XF-81 is a good dark green and use Gunze lacquer for Dark Earth.

 

When I was at Bovington on a course in the glorious summer of 1992 I built a white metal Cromwell tank and painted it with some ‘borrowed’ NATO IRR Green from the tank park. It looked awful - far too bright - and nothing like the full size Chieftains and Challengers that we were being trained on. 

 

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, Merlin said:

There is a thread somewhere on BM of what shades are best, it differs from my finding on the Brown, but agrees on the Green, I need to test the other brown but my gut feeling is that its a tad orangey

I'd agree,  Vallejo English Uniform. I used in on  a model, and it came out really light,  The one I did complete with it is darker, but it had kleer and and oil wash.   English  Uniform does veer to orange, but the one you suggested, US Flat Earth was too biscuity.   I've just been testing some Englsih Uniform with a tiny amount of prussian blue added to see if I can shift it to that subtle green hue the paint chip has.  paint is drying at the mo, but it did shift it greenwards. 

 

I re did said model in Xtracrylix, and their Dark Earth really does not have the green cast.

Xtracrylix Dk Green also seems slightly too blue. Not happy with the result

 

I can see I'm going to have to do some more brush outs.    I was going to get some Gunze aqueous, but now might try some of the Tamiya mixes suggested.  

 

I have this set

https://ak-interactive.com/product/raf-camouflages-air-series/

the hype

"Our paints are not only historically accurate and specially formulated with top quality components; they also have been designed taking into account the scale reduction effect"

"A model aircraft reflects less light than an actual full size aircraft; this means the color applied to the model must be of a lighter shade to look the same as the full sized version. If the same color tones were applied to each, the model would appear darker as it reflects less light."

 

Brush outs (though a poster siad they come out different shades when sprayed,)  anyway, from the brush outs the Middle stone and Azure Blue look OK, interior grey green did vary it seems,  but the rest I was not very impressed with, notably the Greys in particular.

 

And, I could not see any noticeable "scale redections"  if anything the Dark Green is darker than the chip.....    More research needed.  

 

Sadly @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies does not like acrylic paints, specifically their durability,  hence their not being a Colourcoats acrylic line,  plus given the extenet of their range,  replicating it in an acrylic woud be right PITA.