RAL 8020 paint disparity

[Churchill]

Hi, hope the collective wisdom of BM can help here. I recently started painting a number of small scale Afrika Korps armoured vehicles. I've used Mig Ammo paints and done vehicles in the pre-1942 colours of RAL7008 on RAL8000, and the 1942 colours of RAL7027 on RAL8020.

 

But I had some issues with the consistency of the Mig Ammo paints (my local model shop stocks only Mig and Tamiya) and thought I'd give Vallejo Model Air a go. So I ordered just one bottle of Model Air, the RAL8020.

 

The problem is, the colour is very, very different from the Mig. Just to be clear, both bottles are actually labelled RAL 8020, I didn't get a closest match off a conversion chart or anything. The Mig is definitely yellow, it's a close match for artist's yellow ochre paint lightened with white. A thin coat on pale primer would be quite close to vanilla icecream. The Vallejo on the other hand, is definitely a brown, very close to a typical hot chocolate.

 

I know that my camera and your screens can't accurately reproduce what I'm seeing, but this picture does show how different they are;

 

 

So can anyone tell me what's going on here? I'm fairly new to researching and modelling this period and any advice gratefully received. I'm not bothered about absolute colour accuracy, not least because I know that desert conditions will really change any paint on the real world vehicle but these two colours are so different that I'm left very puzzled about what my models should look like.

 

[M3talpig]

This may have nothing to do with the fairly big difference between the two makers you are showing above...and I don't use Vallejo but MIG do modulation colours for most of there range ...for instance the 8020 they do they also make a darker and lighter shade for highlighting and lowlighting...are you certain you have the base shade of 8020 by MIG and not one of the modulation hues..as I said this may have nothing to do with it and perhaps the makers are using war time and post war RAL charts for their mixes. As I said I have no knowledge of Vallejo they may also do modulation versions of there range in which case you may have there darker version for shadows

[Pete F]

I'm not sure either colour looks quite right but the MIG seems too light. There is another thread here about MIG's RAF dark green, which is way off. I like MIG paints for their airbrushing quality but personally don't trust their colour research and accuracy.

[Nenad Ilijic]

Not sure because it's hard to judge from the photo, but Mig's one looks closer to 8020. Vallejo one looks more like 8000.

 

Cheers,

Nenad

[Bozothenutter]

MIG has gone on record that they subscribe to the 'scale effect' theory, that would explain their version being lighter.

[Churchill]

The Mig is labelled RAL 8020 Gelbbraun MIG 0016.

 

The Vallejo is labelled BRAUN RAL 8020 71.117 CAM BROWN.

 

So I don't think either one is a highlight or a shadow shade. And it's hard to see that such a big difference could be accounted for by the manufacturer allowing for scale effect.

 

The colour of the Vallejo RAL8020 is indeed very close to the Mig RAL8000 which I also have. I did wonder if they'd got mixed up somewhere along the way, but surely that would have been picked up and corrected very quickly?

 

 

[malpaso]

In the RAL Classic "official" colour swatch book i have for work 8xxx are browns of various types.  8020 isnt in the Classic range.

 

If you put 8020 in here it's in the RAL design range:

https://www.ralcolorchart.com/

You will see it's a sandy colour similar to the MIG paint.

 

But the RAL Design range was set up in the 90s and the RAL organisation was closed down by the Nazis in 1942 so none of this helps your wartime colour conundrum.

[JackG]

 

RAL 8020 should have a slight pinkish appearance, and is definitely lighter in tone when compared to 8000:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1626981#p1626981

 

 

As advertised on Vallejo's site, they seem to have a decent 'digital' match (image no.2),

https://acrylicosvallejo.com/en/product/hobby/sets/afv-color-series/german-afrika-korps-dark-1942-1944-78410/

Not sure why the sample in the opening post is so dark.   If the paper that has the sample paint is suppose to be white, that is some bad lighting to be working in, or is just a digital photo problem?

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[JackG]

Same Missinglynx forum  site had a hobby paint study done last year, and they too had a fairly dark sample from Vallejo:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/ral-8000-ral-7008-ral8020-ral-7027-comparison-amon-t324686-s30.html

 

 

... and comparison to Chory paint chip;

 

 

 

Another thread with a purported fender relic with original paint:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1624224#p1624224

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Churchill]

@JackG Wow, that comparison shot of the eight versions really tells the story. Mig's version is very like the AK, the lightest and yellowest while Vallejo is the darkest. But the takeaway from that shot for me is that there is no consensus whatsoever among the manufacturers about what this colour looks like. 

Yes, the paper that I'd photographed is white and the phone camera's program may have darkened the shot to 18% grey overall, and paint can be a little darker on paper than on a less permeable surface, so my Vallejo paint is probably a little lighter than it looks on screen, but so is the Mig. When I first sprayed the Mig on a very light gray primer (Tamiya fine surface) it came out looking like vanilla icecream, a most unmilitary shade which wasn't aesthetically acceptable until I'd filtered it with a wash and weathered it - it's the right-hand tank in this shot that's supposed to be RAL 8020 with RAL 7027 and it's even brighter in the flesh (the left hand tank is the earlier scheme RAL 8000 with RAL 7008, and all four shades are Mig. The models are 1/100)

 

 

 

[Bozothenutter]

9 hours ago, malpaso said:

 

 

But the RAL Design range was set up in the 90s and the RAL organisation was closed down by the Nazis in 1942 so none of this helps your wartime colour conundrum.

for WW2 you should use RAL840R, not 840HR.

RAL standards office was not closed down, the RAL colours were switched around in 1961.

the best known effect of this i'm aware of was the RAL1001 'elfenbein' colour, in 840R it is an ivory colour, while in the later version it becomes beige....leading to a lot of German armour modellers not aware of this switch painting interiors beige.....

 

If this book ever becomes available...

https://www.historycolors.de/

[Churchill]

I noticed that the fender relic posted by @JackG above looks quite a lot like the RAL8000/RAL7008 tank in my post following it, so out of curiosity I made a comparison of Vallejo's RAL8020 and Mig's RAL8000. This time I painted them on white polystyrene sheet and photographed them in indirect sunlight. You can see that the 8000 is definitely greyer than the 8020 which has more orangey brown in it, but I'd say the fender is somewhere between the two in colour and a little lighter than either:

 

 

I have a stock of dropper bottles, so perhaps I'll mix up a custom shade for future DAK builds (I have a Tiger and a PzIV to do).

 

[Steben]

2 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

for WW2 you should use RAL840R, not 840HR.

RAL standards office was not closed down, the RAL colours were switched around in 1961.

the best known effect of this i'm aware of was the RAL1001 'elfenbein' colour, in 840R it is an ivory colour, while in the later version it becomes beige....leading to a lot of German armour modellers not aware of this switch painting interiors beige.....

 

If this book ever becomes available...

https://www.historycolors.de/

 

Tomas Chory's 1001 Elfenbein almost matches modern 1001 Beige .... just saying.... very odd.
While there are wartime swatches showing bright ivory colours just like todays 1014 and 1015.... So I read your message as : Beige became common and was named "Beige" after the war.
Many early "swatch" colours match modern "swatch" colours

Edited May 26, 2021 by Steben

[Steben]

1 hour ago, Churchill said:

I noticed that the fender relic posted by @JackG above looks quite a lot like the RAL8000/RAL7008 tank in my post following it, so out of curiosity I made a comparison of Vallejo's RAL8020 and Mig's RAL8000. This time I painted them on white polystyrene sheet and photographed them in indirect sunlight. You can see that the 8000 is definitely greyer than the 8020 which has more orangey brown in it, but I'd say the fender is somewhere between the two in colour and a little lighter than either:

 

 

I have a stock of dropper bottles, so perhaps I'll mix up a custom shade for future DAK builds (I have a Tiger and a PzIV to do).

 

 

If you need reference for 8000 and 7008 look at the modern 8000 and 7008. Tiger 131 will suffice .
8020 is best described as 8000 with light pink added, which leads to the rather "dry" sand colour...definitely "light" to most DAK colours.
 

 

Jack's fender picture offers a good reference!

Edited May 26, 2021 by Steben

[Bozothenutter]

20 minutes ago, Steben said:

 

Tomas Chory's 1001 Elfenbein almost matches modern 1001 Beige .... just saying.... very odd.
While there are wartime swatches showing bright ivory colours just like todays 1014 and 1015.... So I read your message as : Beige became common and was named "Beige" after the war.
Many early "swatch" colours match modern "swatch" colours

we're probably saying the same thing, but let me clarify (not sure what you mean with "beige became common")

I THINK it goes like this, (only for elfenbein mind you)

 

RAL1001 Elfenbein WW2 (chose this picture because it shows several swatches in one shot)

Looks like ivory, makes sense to use this inside a tank.

 

then in 1961 RAL1001 became this, making modellers think this was what was used in the interior of tanks.

 

while elfenbein was moved up numerically to RAL1014 and RAL1015

1014

 

1015

 

 

 

Heretic thought........could Chory have been fooled by the modern RAL1001? (running away to hide!)

 

 

[Steben]

33 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

we're probably saying the same thing, but let me clarify (not sure what you mean with "beige became common")

I THINK it goes like this, (only for elfenbein mind you)

 

RAL1001 Elfenbein WW2 (chose this picture because it shows several swatches in one shot)

Looks like ivory, makes sense to use this inside a tank.

 

then in 1961 RAL1001 became this, making modellers think this was what was used in the interior of tanks.

 

while elfenbein was moved up numerically to RAL1014 and RAL1015

1014

 

1015

 

 

 

Heretic thought........could Chory have been fooled by the modern RAL1001? (running away to hide!)

 

 

Yes, telling the same. But it is puzzling Chory indeed comes with a beige, given the colours are based on artefacts....

[JackG]

 Chory's painted samples are done by eye, no technical equipment involved - please correct me if I'm wrong.  Even if he had an original official wartime swatch to compare beside the artifact, they could very well match, but what he presents in the book could be off slightly.  Why, well as mentioned often in the discussion of colours, everyone sees colour a bit different than the next person. 

 

It's also interesting that age can play a factor as well, as illustrated in this chart:

 

 

The above gives good argument why paint samples should be created from formulas with specific measurements,

 and not guesstimates by eye.

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Steben]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

 Chory's painted samples are done by eye, no technical equipment involved - please correct me if I'm wrong.  Even if he had an original official wartime swatch to compare beside the artifact, they could very well match, but what he presents in the book could be off slightly.  Why, well as mentioned often in the discussion of colours, everyone sees colour a bit different than the next person. 

 

It's also interesting that age can play a factor as well, as illustrated in this chart:

 

 

The above gives good argument why paint samples should be created from formulas with specific measurements,

 and not guesstimates by eye.

 

regards,

Jack

 

It could give argument, if all colours would be shifted. Which is not the case.
If all colours shift and all eyes shifting leads to unavoidable differences and discrepances, how come almost all of his colour swatches are close to a match ( I mean, even I call a 95% match good to go...) AND why his 1001 is freakingly close to modern 1001? .... seems way to specific to be an accident

You even don't need eyes, take pictures in different ambient. I've never known people calling certain colours different if all pictures in advance gave a close match.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Steben

[Graham Boak]

re ageing and its effect on the perception of colour.  I had cataract surgery last year, but noticed no difference in colours.  I did strongly notice the difference in brightness (and perhaps intensity?) with or without lenses.  I'm not sure that this ageing process would actually affect perception, as it would happen slowly and the brain adjusts for such happenings.  In any case, when making a comparison between a paint and a photograph,or the real thing and a paint colour, the effect of ageing would be the same on both and would not effect judgement of such things.

[Churchill]

33 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

 In any case, when making a comparison between a paint and a photograph,or the real thing and a paint colour, the effect of ageing would be the same on both and would not effect judgement of such things.

To a certain extent, yes. There's a story about an artist who painted human figures very tall and slender. An art historian wrote a paper suggesting that this was evidence that the artist had developed an eye condition that causes vision to be distorted in one direction. The flaw in that theory will be obvious to you!

However, impaired perception doesn't always work quite that way. If certain wavelengths are being filtered out by your eyes, then two swatches might appear the same to you but quite different to someone who is able to see that those wavelengths are present in one swatch but not the other.

[Churchill]

9 hours ago, Steben said:

 

If you need reference for 8000 and 7008 look at the modern 8000 and 7008. Tiger 131 will suffice .
 

I expect you're right, but I'll have to wait until I can get back down to Bovington. On the Tank Chats videos Tiger 131 tends to look almost dunkelgelb on my screen, but on videos shot outdoors when they're running it it looks a bit more like the Mig RAL8000/7008, albeit still a little lighter and yellower 

[Churchill]

I'll just leave this here, shall I?

 

 

[JackG]

Similar result at Missinlynx for Vallajo's RAL 7027 - considered a bit too dark compared to Chory chip.  Of note though, Chory's rendering does not have that hint of green as witnessed on the panzer mud flap posted earlier.

 

 

 

 

Limited to the paint brands that were compared at that forum, Tamiya's LP-76 was considered best match to Chory, but oddest thing is that Tamiya markets this as their version for RAL 8000:

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Churchill]

45 minutes ago, JackG said:

 

Tamya's LP-76 was considered best match to Chory, but oddest thing is that Tamiya markets this as their version for RAL 8000:

 

That Chory's chip 7027 also looks fairly close to Mig 8000 I've found that Vallejo's RAL 7027 is near identical to Mig's RAL 7008, they could certainly be used interchangeably. Neither version is much like the RAL 8000 I have though.

Some variation between manufacturers is to be expected, but I'm astonished and puzzled at how radically different their versions of an official, at some point formally defined, paint colour can be - and that's why I started this thread. 

I have Model Air RAL 7008 and 8000 on order, when they arrive I'll put up a grid showing the two manufacturer's versions of the two original schemes.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Churchill
Correct Vallejo 8020 to Mig 8000

[Steben]

Chory's RAL8000 chip is as good as exact modern RAL8000, as many of his chips are. If he truly matched based on artefacts it still is an important fact.
To me on the continent, (modern) RAL colours are like daily bread... they are all but exotic since they are the standard colour choice for almost everything. So forgive if 8000 and 7008 are like .... you know .... piece of cake.

Revell 86 is 7008 by the way. They used to have 8000 as well .... but they stopped .... I think they noticed selling as Germans the one and only German colour is simply to logical for mainstream modellers

Haven't checked Revells "Afrika Braun" though, which is not linked to a RAL colour.
 

Modern 8000 over 7027 and 800 swatch

Edited May 27, 2021 by Steben