Fw190D-9s with the Ta152 'long tail'...

[Werdna]

I know what you're thinking - "not this again..."   Hopefully this is just a quick question, but who knows. 

 

Sometime in the near future I'll be making a start on Eduard's 1/48 D-9 'late' kit, which includes fuselage options for both the standard and legendary 'long tail' variants.

 

To the best of my scant knowledge, I think I've probably seen all of the available pics relating to the alleged batch of 190Ds in the 5006XX range (most relating to 500647/'Brown 4') which are alleged to have been fitted with the broad chord tail from the Ta152.  However, none of these pics - as far as I am aware - show the full tail - or at least 'confirm the identify' of the tail beyond any doubt (I realise that 'beyond any doubt' is a tall order on these kinds of topic).  To my untrained eye, none of the pics seem proven, but then there may be features of the tail which experts are seeing, that I am missing.

 

So, getting to the point - if doubts remain and there is nothing 'definitive' on this, then I may well build one of the 'long tail' versions of the kit as a regular D-9...  

[Bozothenutter]

The tails are quite different:

Ignore the actual aircraft, just look at the tail.

 

Maybe some of the pics you're talking about might help?

[Hal LH]

Having had a quick look through the Japo and Crandall books ,  The tails are quite noticeably different, most D9s having the "upright" aerial connector, but the wider tail having the connector , small and to the front There is a nice picture of the tail of 500645 which shows this clearly, although no pics of the rest of the aircraft . The picture of the tail of 500647 doesn't quite show the top and the connector, but is obviously a wide tail, with the whole aircraft pretty well documented in the general circumstances.   

          Cheers                                                                                

[Werdna]

Thanks Guys - I'm aware of the differences in shape/appearance between the two tails. @Bozothenutter The tail on that 190A drawing is the A3 and earlier version, I believe later versions from A4 upwards (including the D-9) had the aerial mast on top.

54 minutes ago, Hal LH said:

but is obviously a wide tail

 

This is the bit I'm struggling with.  I'm familiar with the pic you are referring to, but what are the features visible in that pic which identify it as a 'wide tail'?

[Bozothenutter]

Guys, can you please share the pic so I can showcase my ignorance...😉

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Werdna said:

To the best of my scant knowledge, I think I've probably seen all of the available pics relating to the alleged batch of 190Ds in the 5006XX range (most relating to 500647/'Brown 4') which are alleged to have been fitted with the broad chord tail from the Ta152.  However, none of these pics - as far as I am aware - show the full tail - or at least 'confirm the identify' of the tail beyond any doubt (I realise that 'beyond any doubt' is a tall order on these kinds of topic).  To my untrained eye, none of the pics seem proven, but then there may be features of the tail which experts are seeing, that I am missing.

have you seen this?

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/05/late-war-variant-fw-190-dora-with-ta.html

has a round up of what evidence appears where.

@FalkeEins, @tank152 @SafetyDad @Jerry Crandall  maybe able to add more.   I can't recall if the JaPo books have a pic, and looking thouh those is fascianting rabbit hole I don't have to go down right now (they are very distracting)

[Troy Smith]

A bit more looking

 

"This Fw 190D-9 “Brown 4” W.Nr.500647 of 7. Staffel, II./JG 26 was found by the Canadians at Hustedt airfield near Celle in mid-April 1945. It was one of 2 aircraft that had to be left behind when II. Gruppe JG26 abandoned the field on 10-11 April. Attempts by the Germans to destroy the aircraft were only partly successful.

What makes these photos special is that they provide further proof that there were Fw190D-9’s with the tail of the Ta152. Previously only one photo of such a D-9 was known, an aircraft of werknummer 500645.

The fact that 500647 is from the same Werknummerblock appears to prove that a small series of aircraft was built with this tail. Whether or not this was a result of a shortage of standard D-9 components must remain a matter of speculation."

 

from https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/05/late-war-variant-fw-190-dora-with-ta.html

"This aircraft is the box-top subject of the new Eduard Dora - 'brown 4' WNr. 500647 of JG 26. A third photograph of this machine was published in Hideki Noro's 'LO+ST' photo album of captured and abandoned Luftwaffe aircraft - interestingly this 'new' photo, along with the previously published pics of this aircraft, again fails to show a complete view of the tail unit, leading some to suggest in a debate on one forum that 500647 does " not have a Ta 152 tail..." (see P282 Crandall Vol II -while the broader tail fin appears to be present the top of the fin itself is nonetheless cropped out so it is not possible to confirm absolutely the absence of the typical pointed Dora aerial mast ). However it is now generally assumed that other Doras in the WNr. 500600 range were fitted with the same broad Ta 152 tail and are mostly covered here on Eduard's decal options. "

 

 

[Werdna]

1 minute ago, Troy Smith said:

have you seen this?

https://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2011/05/late-war-variant-fw-190-dora-with-ta.html

has a round up of what evidence appears where.

@FalkeEins, @tank152 @SafetyDad @Jerry Crandall  maybe able to add more.   I can't recall if the JaPo books have a pic, and looking thouh those is fascianting rabbit hole I don't have to go down right now (they are very distracting)

 

Hi Troy - yes, seen the falkeeins write-up.  The only thing I haven't seen (I think) is the pic referred to, of the tail of 500645, which sounds like it might show the full tail in its entirety, even if the rest of the aircraft is destroyed.

[Werdna]

15 minutes ago, Bozothenutter said:

Guys, can you please share the pic so I can showcase my ignorance...😉

 

This is the pic of the 600647's (ie Brown 4) tail.  I suppose the question I have is that given the whole tail is not visible in this pic, what identifies it as a 'long' tail..?

 

[Silverkite]

Sometimes Warthunder forums and Facebook groups (yes that stupid game) have some of the stuff that got lost when google & co changed their search and indexing filters.

Facebook also has a FW190 restoration & research group, maybe someone has no public shareable pictures on his collection and might share some of his knowledge to you

 

Luigi

[SafetyDad]

Hello again

 

as @Troy Smith has explained (and is also well covered in the link to @FalkeEins blog), it's thought that some late war 190D-9s were completed with the broader-chord tail of the Ta152. Only 2 are known from photographs - Brown 4 Wk. Nr. 500647 and what's thought to be Black 6 of JG2 Wk. Nr. 500645. 

 

Ironically, the best view of the 'wider' Ta152 tail is the picture of 500645, but the rest of the airframe has been destroyed by fire. The story goes that a complete colour picture exists of this aircraft, and it once appeared on the cover of an obscure Dutch 70s modelling magazine. Apparently the owner of the picture has never allowed it to be published or copied. Hmm...

 

As outlined in the blog linked above, @David E. Brown makes a well-reasoned case for a third machine with the Ta 152 tail, namely Wk. Nr. 500648, Yellow 6+I of III/KG(J)27. No pics exist as far as we know, but the sequencing of the Werk Nummern raises the prospect of a very colourfully marked machine - that would be my choice and I have an EagleCals sheet for the Bf109G that would supply tactical markings in 1/32 set aside for a future build.  Don't tell Troy though...  

 

SD

[Werdna]

Thanks @Silverkite and @SafetyDad  

 

I have been through various Facebook pages and the discussions there are no more or less conclusive than any other, to be honest.  Having said that, I did come across a pic on one of the Fw190 pages there, which I've posted below.  It seems to show a Ta152 tail on a Jumo powered aircraft (stbd side supercharger) with 'short' wings, so not a Ta152H or C.  Another tail in the background. No W.Nr visible.  Not sure where the pic is from, so it may have already been ID'd.

 

 

[MDriskill]

Here is a reference drawing (from the Valiant book) of a "normal" Fw 190A-8 tail. Note how the front of the tailwheel access panel, and leading edge of the fin, are at different angles.

 

Here is a "normal" Fw 190D-9 tail, Soichiro Abe's drawing from Crandall's Eagle Editions book, volume 1. It is basically the same as the A tail, with the exception of a significant extension section between the access panel and the rudder. But still the same angle between access panel and fin leading edge.

 

Here is the "long" tail, drawing from Hitchcock's Monarch/Eagle Editions book on the Ta 152. The extension behind the access panel is actually somewhat less than on the "normal" D tail, but the top of the fin leading edge is extended so that it is more or less parallel to the front of the access panel. The top cap is much longer and differently proportioned, and the antenna attachment is different.

 

Here's another photo, from JaPo's volume 2 on the Fw 190D. It clearly shows the long tail on a D-9's built by Mimetall Erfurt ("MME"), as indicated by the 50xxxx serial assigned to this model and manufacturer. Not coincidentally, MME was tooling up for production of the Ta 152 at war's end, and had assembled some airframes. As the caption below notes, use of the long tail on a few MME D-9's could simply have been an expedient forced by a short-term supply issue.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by MDriskill

[Werdna]

Brilliant - thanks @MDriskill - that's the pic (and effectively the conclusive evidence) that I've been looking for.

 

Is it possible that the pic I posted above shows Ta152Es..?  

[MDriskill]

I may be wrong about the Ta 152E's - seems I recall reading that, but of course now can't find it! And it's hard to tell the Ta 152 variant in your photo as the wing is at such a foreshortened angle. (If it is indeed a short wing, the combo of that with a Jumo engine would definitely indicate an E, though.)

 

Here is another shot from the Eagle Editions Fw 190D vol. 1, showing a Ta 152H assembled by MME:

Edited May 24, 2021 by MDriskill

[SafetyDad]

3 hours ago, Werdna said:

Thanks @Silverkite and @SafetyDad  

 

I have been through various Facebook pages and the discussions there are no more or less conclusive than any other, to be honest.  Having said that, I did come across a pic on one of the Fw190 pages there, which I've posted below.  It seems to show a Ta152 tail on a Jumo powered aircraft (stbd side supercharger) with 'short' wings, so not a Ta152H or C.  Another tail in the background. No W.Nr visible.  Not sure where the pic is from, so it may have already been ID'd.

 

 

Thanks!

These pics are new to me (and believe me, I've looked through a lot of end-of-war wreck photos for details). Well done - I think these might also be Fw 190D-9s - I believe the engine mounts for the Ta 152 series were different from these (although I'm open to correction). Sadly the cowling cooling flaps are not evident - these also would help pin down the exact airframe type.

 

The soldiers in the pictures appear to be Russian - which would give some clue to the location being in the Eastern part of Germany.

 

SD

[Werdna]

24 minutes ago, SafetyDad said:

Thanks!

These pics are new to me (and believe me, I've looked through a lot of end-of-war wreck photos for details). Well done - I think these might also be Fw 190D-9s - I believe the engine mounts for the Ta 152 series were different from these (although I'm open to correction). Sadly the cowling cooling flaps are not evident - these also would help pin down the exact airframe type.

 

The soldiers in the pictures appear to be Russian - which would give some clue to the location being in the Eastern part of Germany.

 

SD

 

No problem - glad to have been able to provide something of interest  

 

If these were indeed Mimetall/Erfurt products, then Erfurt ended up east of the partition, so the Russian presence would support that...

[MDriskill]

40 minutes ago, Werdna said:

 

No problem - glad to have been able to provide something of interest  

 

If these were indeed Mimetall/Erfurt products, then Erfurt ended up east of the partition, so the Russian presence would support that...

It is indeed hard to discern the variant of the machine in the foreground of Werdna's first photo, due to the angle of the wing and the condition of the fuselage, but the very wide-blade VS-9 propeller pegs it as a Ta 152. The D-9 used the narrower, more pointy VS-111 prop.

Edited May 24, 2021 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

3 hours ago, Werdna said:

Thanks @Silverkite and @SafetyDad  

 

I have been through various Facebook pages and the discussions there are no more or less conclusive than any other, to be honest.  Having said that, I did come across a pic on one of the Fw190 pages there, which I've posted below.  It seems to show a Ta152 tail on a Jumo powered aircraft (stbd side supercharger) with 'short' wings, so not a Ta152H or C.  Another tail in the background. No W.Nr visible.  Not sure where the pic is from, so it may have already been ID'd.

 

 

Sorry but the Ta 152 C has the short wing.Only the Ta 152 H "Höhenjäger" has the long wing.

Another thing that could be worth mentioning is that according the book "Focke Wulf Fw 190/Ta 152" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel in a list of all built variants on page 85 werknummer 500645 is the only built Testbed aircraft with the modifications for the Fw 190 D-15 with Daimler Benz DB603E engine and the larger Ta 152 tail.The description of the known picture of the tail on page 223 also states that despite the werknummer the aircraft is the Fw 190 D-15.The japanese model art book also has 500645 written in the description of the Focke Wulf D-15 on page 52.

Unfortunately we cannot say more as our japanese is non existant.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero+Christian

[Werdna]

10 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

It is indeed hard to discern the variant of the machine in the foreground of Werdna's first photo, due to the angle of the wing and the condition of the fuselage, but the very wide-blade VS-9 propeller pegs it as a Ta 152. The D-9 used the narrower, more pointy VS-111 prop.

 

IMHO I think there is enough perspective to call it a 'short' wing, but I'm obviously open to other interpretations.  It certainly doesn't seem to have the 'sharper' edge, narrower wingtips which the 'long' wing had, as far as I can tell - although it's far from conclusive.

 

If we're going 'short' wing, then it seems to have wing root armament, which makes the D-9 and Ta152E a possibility.  If the prop blades rule out a D-9, then that leaves either a 152E or some other - as yet unidentified - variant.  

[Werdna]

6 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Sorry but the Ta 152 C has the short wing.Only the Ta 152 H "Höhenjäger" has the long wing.

 

Yes, I get that.  I agree (as I have said) it seems to have the short wing.  Although one of the 'E' variants (I forget which) was also intended to have the 'long' wing.

8 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Another thing that could be worth mentioning is that according the book "Focke Wulf Fw 190/Ta 152" by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel in a list of all built variants on page 85 werknummer 500645 is the only built Testbed aircraft with the modifications for the Fw 190 D-15 with Daimler Benz DB603E engine and the larger Ta 152 tail.The description of the known picture of the tail on page 223 also states that despite the werknummer the aircraft is the Fw 190 D-15.The japanese model art book also has 500645 written in the description of the Focke Wulf D-15 on page 52.

 

Not sure how accurate that is.  I've got no particular investment in taking one side or another here, but Messrs Crandall and others do not seem to agree with that.  Let's just say that the arguments against this seem far more convincing to me than the arguments for it.

[fastterry]

12 hours ago, Werdna said:

Thanks @Silverkite and @SafetyDad  

 

I have been through various Facebook pages and the discussions there are no more or less conclusive than any other, to be honest.  Having said that, I did come across a pic on one of the Fw190 pages there, which I've posted below.  It seems to show a Ta152 tail on a Jumo powered aircraft (stbd side supercharger) with 'short' wings, so not a Ta152H or C.  Another tail in the background. No W.Nr visible.  Not sure where the pic is from, so it may have already been ID'd.

 

 

I'm not sure how relevant this is but the Hakenkreuze in the photo has a white surround when all of the photos I can find of the Ta152H has them solid with no surround. Early Fw190D-9's had similar white outlined hakenkreuze as did the long nose prototypes. Curiouser and curiouser.

TRF

[dov]

Beside all:

I am not sure which configuration was possible, due to CG position. And also because of the center of aerodynamic forces.

Think also about the possibility of willingly misleading enemy services by variants never existed.

Think also about the possibility of making aircraft serviceably by all means which are not possible.

Just to look like? Unservicable aircraft fixed together as dummy?

Therefore, this aircraft were left behind. They could never fly!

So, they created fake aircraft to mislead the enemy?

I would not give one penny for this speculation!

Consider: Many factories were just fakes, so why not aircraft too?

Serial number blocks were left out to create fake numbers of aircraft!

This is an overall pattern.

Maybe some modelers as saboteurs?

Happy modelling

[SafetyDad]

10 hours ago, MDriskill said:

It is indeed hard to discern the variant of the machine in the foreground of Werdna's first photo, due to the angle of the wing and the condition of the fuselage, but the very wide-blade VS-9 propeller pegs it as a Ta 152. The D-9 used the narrower, more pointy VS-111 prop.

 

Good observation about the prop.

 

However, in the interests of discussion (and also I'm very much enjoying these new-to-me pictures)  I'm not convinced this is a long-span wing (as it would have to be were this a Jumo-engined Ta 152H). Look at the aileron on the near wing - even allowing for foreshortening, this seems to take up about half the span as it would for a 190D (as seen below - plans are from the Model Art publication on the 190D and for discussion only - I've cropped them intentionally). Ta 152H ailerons take up a smaller portion of the wing trailing edge 

 

 

 

the engine mounts seem subtly different too - check the size of the supercharger inlet and its proximity to the engine bearer here on this preserved Jumo 213 from a Ta 152H

 

 

 

However I'm open to debate and persuasion - what a shame the cowling gills aren't visible

 

SD

[SafetyDad]

Another detail I missed - the Ta 152 engine above doesn't seem to have the sausage-shaped coolant tank running beneath the front section of the engine bearer, where this is  obvious on the pictures posted above

 

I'm off to check more pictures...

 

SD