Need some help with which kit for Robin Olds F-4C

[Harrier/ViperFan]

Thanks Jonathan, that has helped a lot, i will give it a go as i want to sharpen my scratch building skills, but as a back up i have some seats on order from Jeffrey at Hypersonic anyway. 

[Harrier/ViperFan]

Well got all my parts from Jeffrey at Hypersonics arrived really quickly considering everything. I am really impressed and customer service is fantastic.

 

As parts are here once i get some free time i be able to kick start this project.

[Johnson]

Hi Folks,

 

I found this very useful thread when I was looking for tips for my 1/72 Hobby 2000 F-4C:

 

 

The Fundecals page is just amazing, many thanks @11bravo. The decals with the kit look good but I'm wondering if Fundecals do an Op Bolo in 1/72? (their website is currently being rebuilt).

 

And what I didn't know is that I need a Mk.5 ejection seat. Does anyone know if there's a good one in 1/72? My searches for it have so far drawn a blank.

 

And apologies to @Harrier/ViperFan for the thread digression/hijack, hope it's OK. I can start a new thread if necessary.

 

Cheers,

[Harrier/ViperFan]

43 minutes ago, Johnson said:

And apologies to @Harrier/ViperFan for the thread digression/hijack, hope it's OK. I can start a new thread if necessary.

As far as i can see it's about the same subject so knock yourself out, besides that's what's this forum is all about.

[Navy Bird]

2 hours ago, Johnson said:

And what I didn't know is that I need a Mk.5 ejection seat. Does anyone know if there's a good one in 1/72? My searches for it have so far drawn a blank.

 

The Martin Baker Mk.5 seat is described here, along with the different aircraft is was used in:

 

https://martin-baker.com/products/mk5-ejection-seat/

 

In 1:72 scale, the only Mk.5 I could find is this one from Kora:

 

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/kora-models-dsm72020-martin-baker-gru-mk5-ejection-seats--1137441

 

This is labelled as the Mk.5 variant as fitted to the A-6 Intruder. How different this is from the Mk.5 fitted to the F-4C is the question.

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Johnson]

Thanks Bill @Navy Bird

 

The Mk.5 on the MB website certainly looks the same as the seat in Robin Olds F-4C.

 

4 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

This is labelled as the Mk.5 variant as fitted to the A-6 Intruder. How different this is from the Mk.5 fitted to the F-4C is the question.

 

Not sure that the Kora seat is quite the same, the pic is a bit indistinct. And they are fairly expensive here, half the price I paid for the kit.

 

Unless I find a convincing 1/72 Mk.5, I'm looking at converting a Quickboost Mk.7, which I may get away with at 1/72.

 

Cheers,

 

[Harrier/ViperFan]

@Johnson 1/72 i think you are better of modding a Mk.7 as unlike in 1/48 no one will really notice too much tbh. As it's mainly the top part of the seat that different from i can see. And as rule of thumb your model.

[Murph]

On 7/2/2021 at 11:27 AM, Navy Bird said:

This is labelled as the Mk.5 variant as fitted to the A-6 Intruder. How different this is from the Mk.5 fitted to the F-4C is the question.

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

Very different.

 

Regards,

Murph

[Navy Bird]

3 hours ago, Murph said:

Very different.

 

Not surprising. That's what I suspected. If you have any further information about these differences or can provide a link to a page that covers this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[Murph]

17 hours ago, Navy Bird said:

 

Not surprising. That's what I suspected. If you have any further information about these differences or can provide a link to a page that covers this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!   

 

Cheers,

Bill

 

The Mk-5 is recognizable as a typical Phantom ejection seat:

 

 

While the GRU-5 was a very early version of the seat that ended up in the F-14.

 

 

Regards,

Murph

[Biggles87]

I’ve been following this for the info on the MB Mk5 seat which has been very helpful as I have a 1/32 Tamiya F-4C/D which I intend to build as Olds’ machine. I bought some resin Mk7s for my kit before I realised they were the wrong type so I am going to attempt to modify them by making the metal ‘ containers ‘ for the parachute pack as this is the most visible difference between the -5 and -7 when installed in the cockpit.

I have seen photos of what purports to be Olds’ machine after refurbishment with Mk7 seats so perhaps they were retro-fitted at a later date.

 

Good luck with the build @Harrier/ViperFan, I hope you post a WIP.

 

John

[Thomas Bell]

Just a few idle comments on subjects that have  long fascinated me: Operation Bolo and the early Rhino. Following my first flight in a tactical jet, a Texas Air National Guard F-4C of the 111th FIS,  I set out to make a presentation model of this colorful bird for Maj. Bob Wilkerson, my pilot that day and who has been a close friend ever since.

Before the Phantom, Bob flew the C-141B in the regular AF, the A-37B in the USAF Reserve, then flew the F-101B Voodoo in the Guard (I later built him one of those as well.)  He retired as a colonel flying the F-16C.

Back to that first presentation model. This being the mid-'80s, aftermarket parts were hard to come by, though Experts Choice made a fine 1/48 scale sheet for this interceptor unit's colorful livery, and included numbers to make any jet in the squadron.

As for the kit itself, while I'm not acquainted with Academy's, I have built both the  Monogram and Hasegawa versions of the 1/48 Rhino. Hasegawa's quarter scale F-4C/D was the best for this type, IMO and, I believe, sadly still is, though I think Tamiya will soon rectify this. Both the kits then available to me  had raised panel lines, rivets and other raised detailing as was the custom of the time. However, I found the Has kit all-round more delicately rendered (a bit too much so with the gear legs. I suggest whichever kit you choose, replace the gear with a metal set from the outstanding.Scale Aircraft Conversions line.)

The Hasegawa M-B Mk. 7 seats,, though far better than Monogram's partly molded -in seats, I still found to be a bit clunky and lacking in detail. These I replaced with Verlinden resin seats, which I detailed with wire, fine wire for hydraulic lines and thicker stuff for.the upper and lower pull handles, which you should definitely make from scratch.. (About the latter: This lower handle, while painted black and yellow like the upper pair, is always covered with a metal plate painted a sort of translucent red, giving it a metalic sheen. It is always in the closed position on the ground, covering the handle lest you catch a boot in it when entering and exiting the a/c, a blunder that is certain to put a dark cloud over your day.. Flipping this cover to the side is about the first thing you do when the chocks come away, and flipping it back the first thing you do on landing roll-out.)

My recollection of the kit is that the fit and detail were fine for the time. I replaced the wheels and moveable canopy parts with True Details and Falcon parts from Squadron Mail Order, though I retained the Hasegawa fixed canopy section.

Finally, I used a F-4 PE detail set from Hi-Tech. (Remember them?) It was crude by modern PE standards, made from hard steel, but some parts, like those for the canopy sills, were exquisite.

Oh, and the Mk. 7 seat, which was retrofitted to all early Phantoms, has a hard shell on the upper back, made from fiberglass or a similar polymer. It's not metal.

Yes, I've blithered on too tediously here. Just let me bitch about a quite trivial pet peave I have with modelers detailing Mk. 7 seats. I have been fortunate to have flown a few times in a two-seat civilian F-104D Starfighter, which of course features the Lockheed seats similar to those in the U-2 and SR-71. These seats require a unique piece of kit, which crews call "spurs." These are metal caps that fit over your boot heels and are held in place by webbing straps over the ankles. The first thing you do upon putting your feet on the floor before sitting down is to snap the spurs to balls on the ends of cables attached to reels in the seat. When you pull the ejection handle, the first thing that happens is the cables jerk your feet and legs back.so they don't get amputated on the instrument panel as you go up the rails.

Now, M-B deals with this differently, and unlike the Lockheed seat, the Mk. 7 leg-puller is quite conspicuous, even in 1/48, and is visible in 1/72. It consists of a lanyard protruding from either side of the seat. Attached to these are loops that fit around the ankles and just above the knees. When the jet is parked, these are always looped over the yellow handles on either side of the seat to prevent tangling. For reasons I do not know, these loops are always a bright electric blue color. They are attached to the lanyards, which are black, with shiny metal rings.

Yet,  even the finest modelers and best detailers always omit this. I don't know why, because it only takes about 10 minutes to make with black and blue sewing thread  and another five minutes to install if you're slow like me.

Okay, there. If you read this far you are my friend for life.

Now, can someone out there direct me to an Operation Bolo F-104C Starfighter reference?

[Navy Bird]

Thanks @Murph - good photos.   

 

Cheers,

Bill

[JeffreyK]

17 hours ago, Murph said:

 

The Mk-5 is recognizable as a typical Phantom ejection seat:

 

 

While the GRU-5 was a very early version of the seat that ended up in the F-14.

 

 

Regards,

Murph

 

The top seat is not a Mk H5 for a Phantom. It's a Mk.P5 (F4D Skyray etc.). The H5 seat looks quite different from that.

J

[Harrier/ViperFan]

11 hours ago, Thomas Bell said:

Just a few idle comments on subjects that have  long fascinated me: Operation Bolo and the early Rhino. Following my first flight in a tactical jet, a Texas Air National Guard F-4C of the 111th FIS,  I set out to make a presentation model of this colorful bird for Maj. Bob Wilkerson, my pilot that day and who has been a close friend ever since.

Before the Phantom, Bob flew the C-141B in the regular AF, the A-37B in the USAF Reserve, then flew the F-101B Voodoo in the Guard (I later built him one of those as well.)  He retired as a colonel flying the F-16C.

Back to that first presentation model. This being the mid-'80s, aftermarket parts were hard to come by, though Experts Choice made a fine 1/48 scale sheet for this interceptor unit's colorful livery, and included numbers to make any jet in the squadron.

As for the kit itself, while I'm not acquainted with Academy's, I have built both the  Monogram and Hasegawa versions of the 1/48 Rhino. Hasegawa's quarter scale F-4C/D was the best for this type, IMO and, I believe, sadly still is, though I think Tamiya will soon rectify this. Both the kits then available to me  had raised panel lines, rivets and other raised detailing as was the custom of the time. However, I found the Has kit all-round more delicately rendered (a bit too much so with the gear legs. I suggest whichever kit you choose, replace the gear with a metal set from the outstanding.Scale Aircraft Conversions line.)

The Hasegawa M-B Mk. 7 seats,, though far better than Monogram's partly molded -in seats, I still found to be a bit clunky and lacking in detail. These I replaced with Verlinden resin seats, which I detailed with wire, fine wire for hydraulic lines and thicker stuff for.the upper and lower pull handles, which you should definitely make from scratch.. (About the latter: This lower handle, while painted black and yellow like the upper pair, is always covered with a metal plate painted a sort of translucent red, giving it a metalic sheen. It is always in the closed position on the ground, covering the handle lest you catch a boot in it when entering and exiting the a/c, a blunder that is certain to put a dark cloud over your day.. Flipping this cover to the side is about the first thing you do when the chocks come away, and flipping it back the first thing you do on landing roll-out.)

My recollection of the kit is that the fit and detail were fine for the time. I replaced the wheels and moveable canopy parts with True Details and Falcon parts from Squadron Mail Order, though I retained the Hasegawa fixed canopy section.

Finally, I used a F-4 PE detail set from Hi-Tech. (Remember them?) It was crude by modern PE standards, made from hard steel, but some parts, like those for the canopy sills, were exquisite.

Oh, and the Mk. 7 seat, which was retrofitted to all early Phantoms, has a hard shell on the upper back, made from fiberglass or a similar polymer. It's not metal.

Yes, I've blithered on too tediously here. Just let me bitch about a quite trivial pet peave I have with modelers detailing Mk. 7 seats. I have been fortunate to have flown a few times in a two-seat civilian F-104D Starfighter, which of course features the Lockheed seats similar to those in the U-2 and SR-71. These seats require a unique piece of kit, which crews call "spurs." These are metal caps that fit over your boot heels and are held in place by webbing straps over the ankles. The first thing you do upon putting your feet on the floor before sitting down is to snap the spurs to balls on the ends of cables attached to reels in the seat. When you pull the ejection handle, the first thing that happens is the cables jerk your feet and legs back.so they don't get amputated on the instrument panel as you go up the rails.

Now, M-B deals with this differently, and unlike the Lockheed seat, the Mk. 7 leg-puller is quite conspicuous, even in 1/48, and is visible in 1/72. It consists of a lanyard protruding from either side of the seat. Attached to these are loops that fit around the ankles and just above the knees. When the jet is parked, these are always looped over the yellow handles on either side of the seat to prevent tangling. For reasons I do not know, these loops are always a bright electric blue color. They are attached to the lanyards, which are black, with shiny metal rings.

Yet,  even the finest modelers and best detailers always omit this. I don't know why, because it only takes about 10 minutes to make with black and blue sewing thread  and another five minutes to install if you're slow like me.

Okay, there. If you read this far you are my friend for life.

Now, can someone out there direct me to an Operation Bolo F-104C Starfighter reference?

 

Wow thanks for the info i will have to remember about the blue and black thread @Thomas Bell

[Johnson]

6 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

The H5 seat looks quite different from that

Any chance of a photo? (for those like me who are getting a tad confused here)

 

Thanks,

[JeffreyK]

Photos are hard to come by as still existing MK.H5 seats are probably extremely rare. The best pics are in the Daco book, page 116 (although I do think the face curtain pull ring was always double, not single as in those photos).

These may help as well:

Navy type:

 

Air Force type:

[Johnson]

5 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

These may help as well

They certainly do. Many thanks @JeffreyK

[canberra kid]

John

[Thomas Bell]

Funny coincidence. I was just idly pawing theough a box of orphaned aftermarket stuff I forgot I had or why I have it. One item is a package of two nicely cast 1/32 resin seats labeled "Martin-Baker Mk. 7A," but it doesn't say what a/c they go with. I see they are marked down from $11.95 to 25 cents, which explains why I bought them. Most likely on a trip to Dallas at Squadron Mail Order's annual warehouse sale. It was held one day a year and was legendary for the bargains you could find on every shelf.

Imagine Hannants marking down 75 percent of their inventory to between a shilling and a quid. Of course, the UK has so many of our kind there'd be a riot replete with modeling hooligans.

Can't find this Mk. 7A in my seat references. Anybody know? They look almost identical to the Mk. 7.

[XV571]

On 6/29/2021 at 2:10 PM, Harrier/ViperFan said:

Well got all my parts from Jeffrey at Hypersonics arrived really quickly considering everything. I am really impressed and customer service is fantastic.

 

As parts are here once i get some free time i be able to kick start this project.

That's just how I expected things to go. 👍 As far as I'm concerned his F-4 upgrades are a must have, especially the canopy interiors and stabliators (the Academy ones are plain wrong and I hate the weak pin attachment on the Hasegawa F-4s)

 

 

On the Mk5 seat for 1/72 F-4s, there has, as far as I know, only ever been one set. These were made by Aeroclub in the mid-1980s in white metal. When I modified a Hasegawa F-4B into the 1962 Bendix Trophy winner F4H-1 back in 2006 I had to recycle a pair from an old Phantom! I think I must have e-mailed just about every aftermarket manufacturer to make a resin seat. Given their comprehensive range I would have thought at least Pavla would have covered the Mk5. Then again nearly all the 1/72 seats are of the USAF style Mk7.  Maybe with the Hobby 2000 rebox of the Hasegawa kit and the upcoming release of the Fine Molds F-4C we might finally see a proper 1/72 Phantom Mk5 to make a pre-1968 timescale aircraft. 

 

On 7/6/2021 at 3:01 PM, Biggles87 said:

I’ve been following this for the info on the MB Mk5 seat which has been very helpful as I have a 1/32 Tamiya F-4C/D which I intend to build as Olds’ machine. I bought some resin Mk7s for my kit before I realised they were the wrong type so I am going to attempt to modify them by making the metal ‘ containers ‘ for the parachute pack as this is the most visible difference between the -5 and -7 when installed in the cockpit.

I have seen photos of what purports to be Olds’ machine after refurbishment with Mk7 seats so perhaps they were retro-fitted at a later date.

 

Good luck with the build @Harrier/ViperFan, I hope you post a WIP.

 

John

 

AMS Resin make a 1/32 Mk5 seat availabe through Spruebrothers:

https://spruebrothers.com/ams32040-1-32-ams-resin-mb-mk-h5-pre-1970-ejection-seats-for-f-4-phantom-32040/  although currently out of stock, if you use the 'add to wish list' you may prompt them to order more in.

 

GT resin also do a Mk5 seat as well as a complete cockpit for the Tamiys F-4C:

https://spruebrothers.com/gtr32092-1-32-gt-resin-f-4c-phantom-ii-cockpit-with-early-mk-5-seats-set-tam-kit/

 

The Mk7 seat began being retrofitted to Phantoms from around 1968 up to about 1970 so if you see a jet fitted with them it's definitely post Operation Bolo.

 

On 7/10/2021 at 2:10 AM, Thomas Bell said:

Funny coincidence. I was just idly pawing theough a box of orphaned aftermarket stuff I forgot I had or why I have it. One item is a package of two nicely cast 1/32 resin seats labeled "Martin-Baker Mk. 7A," but it doesn't say what a/c they go with. I see they are marked down from $11.95 to 25 cents, which explains why I bought them. Most likely on a trip to Dallas at Squadron Mail Order's annual warehouse sale. It was held one day a year and was legendary for the bargains you could find on every shelf.

Imagine Hannants marking down 75 percent of their inventory to between a shilling and a quid. Of course, the UK has so many of our kind there'd be a riot replete with modeling hooligans.

Can't find this Mk. 7A in my seat references. Anybody know? They look almost identical to the Mk. 7.

Your Mk7As will just be a sub variant of the seat. The most probable change is the harnesses since the USN used a different system to the USAF and the British seats were different again. There are other details like the Personal Survival Pack (PSP), seat controls that change between operators. Do your seats have a little circular window in the bottom cushion and no O2 bottle  in a cut out in the back cushion? If so they will be the USN version. They could even be the RAF/FAA seat which could explain why they were being off-loaded so cheaply 😀 If you can post a picture of them we may be able to work out which version they are most suitable for.

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

[Harrier/ViperFan]

There has been some really great info in this post. I wasn't expecting this kind of response when i posted this question but it's been fantastic thank you everyone.

[11bravo]

On 7/11/2021 at 6:01 PM, XV571 said:

 

AMS Resin make a 1/32 Mk5 seat availabe through Spruebrothers:

https://spruebrothers.com/ams32040-1-32-ams-resin-mb-mk-h5-pre-1970-ejection-seats-for-f-4-phantom-32040/  although currently out of stock, if you use the 'add to wish list' you may prompt them to order more in.

 

 

Last I checked the AMS set was OOS at Spruebros.    That being said, Harold of AMS frequents Large Scale Planes and he let it be known that he can still pop out a set of these on request.   He can be reached at:  

 

hairold(at)frontier(dot)com

 

I went this route and had the seats within two weeks.   Good guy to deal with and the quality of the product is outstanding. 

 

All that being said - does anyone have some color pictures of a USAF spec Mk 5 seat?  I've found nothing on the web.

 

TIA,

 

John

[Thomas Bell]

I forgot to mention: Since I have no use for navalized 1/32 Mk. 7A's, and only paid 25p for these nice resin seats (originally priced about equivalent to 9 quid for the pair) just say the word and I'll pop them over the big water to any of you who want them. Shame to waste them.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Thomas Bell
Clarity

[Thomas Bell]

Just stumbled across this old thread, which recalled when I was first  put through a day of Egress and Ejection trainin in my first encounter with the MB Mk 7. It was the day before my first flight in a fast tactical jet. It was the mid-80s and this Texas ANG interceptor wing had not yet got F-16s.  Per the regs I was put through a full day of Egress and Ejection traiining in a real Mk 7 mounted on a plinth.

I was to memorize everything from avoiding coming down in power lines to memorizing everything in the survival case. Each time I had to unstrap and jump over the side (ground egress). I flubbed it. And every other test.

At the end, I asked the young Captain instructor how I did. He sighed and said, "For your sake, I hope nothing goes wrong."

I went on to train in the NACES, ACES II, and a couple other seats. But none was as difficcult as that Mk 7. The flight? The first time in that old F-4C was the most sublime hour of my life, and that includes the F-15, F-18 and F-104D, among others.