The First; Bf109 V1 Airfix E conversion -Finished

[Marklo]

Let’s start at the very beginning ( hmm sounds like a cheesy song) I have eleven 1/72 109s to build for the GB so I’ve decided to build two bookends so to speak, V1 the first 109 and a Buchon the last to be built and operated by an airforce.

 

I’ll be basing this on an Airfix E ( the closest airframe in the stash) it’ll need a new nose, canopy and sometimes  mods to the oil coolers and small detail. More to follow.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Marklo

[Black Knight]

Thats a lot of conversion work

To make it easier I'd recommend you search out a Heller 109 B/C kit and use that to convert backwards.

[Marklo]

3 hours ago, Black Knight said:

To make it easier I'd recommend you search out a Heller 109 B/C kit and use that to convert backwards.

I did think of that but tbh it’s what’s in the stash and I love conversion work and also the airframe didn’t change a whole lot aft of the firewall between V1 and the early E series.

[Black Knight]

22 minutes ago, Marklo said:

I did think of that but tbh it’s what’s in the stash and I love conversion work and also the airframe didn’t change a whole lot aft of the firewall between V1 and the early E series.

But the wings did

[Marklo]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

But the wings did

Afaik just the oil coolers and armament, will recheck my references.

[Col.]

You certainly know how to pick interesting subjects  

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Marklo said:

Afaik just the oil coolers and armament, will recheck my references.

long slats, wide balloon tyres, so has upperwing bulges similar  to late G/K wings, different wheel doors, circular wheel wells.

 

 

 

 

this is a later prototype, but shows the upperwing bulges

 

HTH

T

 

[Marklo]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

5 hours ago, Marklo said:

 

long slats, wide balloon tyres, so has upperwing bulges similar  to late G/K wings, different wheel doors, circular wheel wells.

Still nothing too tricky. Good photos. The lower one isn’t V1 but I’m assuming it has the same wing?

 

Now since I have the 109 experts on the thread, tell me this; what colour should it be RLM grey, Silber, Silbergrau, bare metal? or something else?

Edited May 24, 2021 by Marklo

[Graham Boak]

You can rule out 02 because at this time this was only used on interoris: the exterior equivalent would be 63.  Which I suppose could still be termed RLN grey but when bright shiny new wouldn't look quite as light as that.  I suspect non-standard colours were still available at that time, for the manufacturers at least.

[Marklo]

This the image that leads me to either Silber or bare metal as it looks shiny and metallic.

 

And of course I do have plans to work to  

Edited May 25, 2021 by Marklo

[Troy Smith]

20 hours ago, Marklo said:

And of course I do have plans to work

just on a casual look, these are terrible. note the wing do not have the long slats, but do have gun access panels, and the wheel bulges are obviously wrong compared to the photo I posted.

 

I think there was colour info in he Monogram German Aircraft guide.  I'll have a look if I can find it.   You might want ask in the WWII section on possible colours.  I know @SafetyDad as many of the references.

HTH

[Troy Smith]

The Monogram book say the aircarft was 'civiliain grey' with a blue underfusleage.

but I don't see a darker blue as their drawing show here, but I know there was a Civil grey.  (which I think is similar to RLM63, Hmm @Graham Boak any thoughts?)

s

 

 

 

this looks to be a far better drawing as well

 

 

Note, this is the image which Monogram took their blue undersides from

 

 

 

all from here

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109D/Bf-109D.html

[Graham Boak]

Unfortunately, there were a number of civilian greys to choose from.  A Lufthansa list of colours presented in Ullmann's work includes several light greys, without however any useful colour references.  However there was a fairly widespread colour known as L40/52 Hellgrau which is often confused with the slightly greenish/yellowish RLM63 (probably because the latter fades quite quickly to a very similar neutral colour).  I use the Colourcoats L40/52, but any paint appearing as a neutral light grey and claiming to be RLM63 is likely to do.  To the best of current knowledge - in this household, at least.

 

In the Lufthansa list, DKH nitro-enamel L40/51 Grau is described as being for He.70 exterior finish.  The previous paint used for this was Avionul 015V120, but this is an internal Lufthana reference.  Lufthansa used DKH L40/52 Duralgrau for He.111 metal parts.  Note that DKH L40/52 Silber was used for Jumo engines and aircraft exteriors.  Ju.52s are listed as being in DKH oil top coat  W30/23.  (and also in the slightly darker Rb Grau - for Reichbahn, but let's not go there.)   There is a very similar Avionul 7374 used elsewhere in the industry, before the instructions to standardise of the DKH formulations.  Bucker used a colour referred to as Pearl Grey, I've no idea what this was.   In b&w photos all these light greys, whether for civilan aircraft or early Lufwaffe types, appear indistinguishable; other than on freshly painted aircraft where the RLM63 appears glossier and slightly darker than on more weathered examples.  A good source of this contrast is in photos of early He.111s in the Condor Legion.

 

The standardised DKH colours for the RLM are available in the colour charts in Ken Merrick's work for Classic, having been remade to the original specification by the same company.

 

[Marklo]

So a neutral light grey. Would the shiny look in my picture then be due to a semigloss finish or heavy retouching of the image?

 

I’m thinking this might be close it’s a mix of Humbrol greys.

Or possibly this it’s AK RFC battleship grey but I think it has a bit of a blue cast to it and isn’t quite neutral. Opinions?

 

 

[Graham Boak]

It is shiny because it is new and carefully polished up for the publicity photos.  But in that period they would be a pretty smooth finish anyway, when new.  The Heinkel floatplane appears too dark, perhaps overly influenced by representations of 02 which is wrong for the period anyway.  Though the most recent examples of 02 I've seen on this board appear quite the opposite in being too light, but this may not be representative.  The lower photo appears nearer but perhaps a little lighter would be preferred, more like the impression given by the nearer wing than the tailplane.  However working from b&w photos can be misleading, but at least we are not talking about light blues.

 

 

 

[Marklo]

52 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

The Heinkel floatplane appears too dark

I think the exposures affecting it as it’s probably a bit lighter irl it was ( I think) an attempt to portray RLM 63 ( I think) which has two versions a greener layer one and an earlier more grey shade. It is a similar hue to the Floh, so I’ll probably go with a Humbrol mix but lighter ( I don’t like to mix paint brands as sometimes they just don’t get along well )

 

I have a couple of modern jets to paint before I get to V1 so I should have good opportunity to try out several grey mixes.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Marklo

[Graham Boak]

Understood.  There was no earlier light grey shade, this was a misunderstanding of the use of the civilian greys and the way that it weathered.  63 and 02 were pretty similar, but 02 was not used as an exterior colour until after the end of the 60-series colours and their earlier standard of paint chemistry.

 

I still have an He.51 to do, and am tempted to make it the floatplane but I do like the colourful noses of the early Jagdgruppe.  Ullmann has a photo of 60+A41 and credits it with L40/52 overall, silver floats.  he also quotes the first maritime scheme as being overall Silver but from 1935 either DKH L40.52 or Avionorm nitro paint 7374 or RLM 02 Grau (!) with silver floats.  By 1938 Gelb was used for the upper wings of biplane floatplanes, but whether this extended to the fighters is unstated - if there were any left in service.

[Marklo]

43 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

and am tempted to make it the floatplane

For some reason I found the He51 an absolute nightmare to assemble and rig. It’s an ICM kit and in hindsight I  think the strut lengths were incorrect and the floats were difficult in the extreme even being a different very soft plastic, I do remember building the Hasegawa version as a kid and not having any difficulties.

[SafetyDad]

I've come a bit late to this after the call from @Troy Smith, but better late than...

 

To be fair I'm not sure I have much new to add, but for the sake of completeness, here is the information Troy alluded to contained within the Monogram Painting Guide to German Aircraft. @Graham Boak seems to have a more complete grasp of the precise details of this shade than I - I'm more of a late-war chap.  

 

 

This reference, although definitive at the time (1980s), has been surpassed in terms of detail by others, such as Merrick's later work with Classic  and than of Ullmann. Nevertheless, to my mind at least, it retains significant value, not least because of the colour chips within the text. You can make your own mind up from the following -

 

Here is the V1 - unlike Troy, I think I can make out the upward sweep of the undersurface darker blue under the tailplane and below the fuselage registration. It's a grainy photo, (but perhaps a little clearer than the one above??) so your judgement may differ...

 

 

 

Here is the V1 Profile in the book, plus the paint chips - these chips in my view are still up there with any from more recent publications. They're large, very well printed and accurate. I also very much appreciate the fact that Merrick and Hitchcock acknowledge the limits of (then) colour knowledge by providing alternative blue-grey chips later in the book when discussing RLM 76 and also admit that non-standard colours have been found on airframes for restoration (such as the NASM Fw 190F-8). 

 

Note the caption referring to 'Civil Light Gray' (that's Grey really - oh yes it is ). (Note also the same RLM number (63) as what became 02, but it's a completely different colour). Compare it to the picture of @Marklo's Floh above (and Graham's comments) - you have a good eye for colour Mr Boak!

See the caption referring to other Bf 109 prototype colours. 

 

 

 

 

As always, images are posted in the interests of discussion (and intentionally slightly foreshortened to discourage any commercial use).

 

HTH

 

SD

[Marklo]

Yes I think you could be right on the blue. To the rear could be mud or shadow but it looks like a clear demarcation line on the front, hmmm.

[Graham Boak]

Or a missing panel.

[Marklo]

This the 29th time to start cutting plastic  first up a new nose.

 

more nose work 

 

Some canopy molding too. I’ll need one for the SCA E as well.

[Marklo]

Nose progress, needs a bit of fitting, hmmm

[Prenton]

Oh dear - you have already started......

 

You do know that there is an MPM kit of the prototype, don't you, Mark.......

 

 

Philip

[Marklo]

On 5/31/2021 at 1:11 AM, Prenton said:

You do know that there is an MPM kit of the prototype, don't you, Mark......

Yes, but I enjoy the conversion plus I’m on a budget and usually just work from my stash. TBH I’d even have been better starting from a B or a C but I have three Es in the stash.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Marklo