Patrick Martin Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 Hi All: The over all colours of the Seafire XV have been a bit of a mystery. There has been lots of discussion on the switching of the basic RAF day fighter scheme colours to the FAA TSS of Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey variegated over Sky on the Seafire III. But for the Seafire XV was there a change from TSS to just Extra Dark Sea Grey as the upper colour (like on early Sea Fury)? If so when would it have come along in production Seafire XV at Cunliffe-Owen and Westland? Patrick Martin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 Patrick, I'm no FAA colors and markings authority, but in my copy of On Target Profile 5, Supermarine Seafire 1b-Mk 47, there are some color profiles, photos, and text, which I have paraphrased below: Prior to October, 1945, XV's were painted in Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey over Sky, with the demarcation being low on the fuselage In October, 1945, XV's were painted in the initial postwar scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky, with the demarcation being low on the fuselage In August, 1946 the scheme on XV's was amended to Pattern 2, which was Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky, with the demarcation high on the fuselage, and with the fin/rudder in sky. On some aircraft the Extra Dark Sea Grey continued down over the rocker arm fairings- on others it continued in a straight line from the lower sill of the canopy to the spinner. I hope this helps and that I got it right, but I'm certainly no authority. I'm sure others will confirm/correct, as needed. Mike XV, pattern 2 https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-xv-pr498-canadian-navy/ XV, initial postwar https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-xv-5h-o-806/ XV, pre-October 1945 https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-xv-pk245/ XV, pre-October, 1945 (my favorite, BTW!) https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-fxv-pr470-canadian-navy-46/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Martin Posted May 21, 2021 Author Share Posted May 21, 2021 On the Seafire; the RCN Dark Grey Light Grey started changing (nothing to do with Sky) in mid 1947. I am trying to sort out of the RCN machines just prior to this - which were in TSS and which have just the one colour EDSG on upper surfaces. There are plenty of photos in the TSS but there are a few where it really looks like just one colour topside. So by serial is/was there a way to find out when this change was made? In the Cuncliff-Owen production PR338 to PR506 (not all RCN) - we are sure at least up to PR478 are TSS (which is close to all) At Westland production SR446 to SR 645 & SW781 to SW921 (not all RCN) - we are sure SR 545 was TSS and SW846 was EDSG. So at this point I think the answer is somewhere between SR546 and SW845 in just the Westland production for FAA and RCN. Nespa? Thanks Pat Thoughts - Ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Beware that the RCN Light Grey was, at least initially, Sky with another name. I strongly suspect that this simplifies a more complex situation, but to say it had nothing to do with Sky appears arguable at best. I misunderstood your initial sentence. All variants of the Merlin Seafire were TSS, but it does seem highly likely that some Westland Seafire IIIs were in Day Fighter. There is however no record of this at Westland. Or anywhere else, it seems. Given the strong variation of TSS in different light conditions and on different film/filter combinations, this is difficult to prove from individual views, There is at least one photo showing considerable differences between two Seafires on the same carrier deck: however I can point to a photo of Sea Hurricanes showing a similar difference, yet the apparent oddball appears clearly in TSS on a colour film of the same period. So I don't think the argument is settled 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 (edited) I like pattern 2. Edited May 22, 2021 by Julien DO NOR USE AIRLINERS.NET Pictures 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
72modeler Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Me, too! What's not to like? A Seafire 17 is one handsome airplane! Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwenS Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 20 hours ago, 72modeler said: Patrick, I'm no FAA colors and markings authority, but in my copy of On Target Profile 5, Supermarine Seafire 1b-Mk 47, there are some color profiles, photos, and text, which I have paraphrased below: Prior to October, 1945, XV's were painted in Extra Dark Sea Grey, Dark Slate Grey over Sky, with the demarcation being low on the fuselage In October, 1945, XV's were painted in the initial postwar scheme of Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky, with the demarcation being low on the fuselage In August, 1946 the scheme on XV's was amended to Pattern 2, which was Extra Dark Sea Grey over Sky, with the demarcation high on the fuselage, and with the fin/rudder in sky. On some aircraft the Extra Dark Sea Grey continued down over the rocker arm fairings- on others it continued in a straight line from the lower sill of the canopy to the spinner. I hope this helps and that I got it right, but I'm certainly no authority. I'm sure others will confirm/correct, as needed. Mike XV, pattern 2 https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-xv-pr498-canadian-navy/ XV, initial postwar https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-xv-5h-o-806/ XV, pre-October 1945 https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-xv-pk245/ XV, pre-October, 1945 (my favorite, BTW!) https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/seafire/seafire-fxv-pr470-canadian-navy-46/ 16 hours ago, Patrick Martin said: On the Seafire; the RCN Dark Grey Light Grey started changing (nothing to do with Sky) in mid 1947. I am trying to sort out of the RCN machines just prior to this - which were in TSS and which have just the one colour EDSG on upper surfaces. There are plenty of photos in the TSS but there are a few where it really looks like just one colour topside. So by serial is/was there a way to find out when this change was made? In the Cuncliff-Owen production PR338 to PR506 (not all RCN) - we are sure at least up to PR478 are TSS (which is close to all) At Westland production SR446 to SR 645 & SW781 to SW921 (not all RCN) - we are sure SR 545 was TSS and SW846 was EDSG. So at this point I think the answer is somewhere between SR546 and SW845 in just the Westland production for FAA and RCN. Nespa? Thanks Pat Thoughts - Ideas? I did some analysis of when the various serial batches were delivered to the RN based on the data in Spitfire the History and Sturtivants FAA aircraft of WW2. Westland - All but one SR serials were delivered by the end of July 1945. SR545 was only ready for collection from the factory on 23 Nov 1945. Of the SW serialled aircraft only one was delivered after the end of Sept. That was SW921 delivered 31 Oct 1945 or 15 Nov 1945. SW846 was delivered 24 July 1945 and had to make a precautionary landing at Macrahanish on 5 Oct while sering with 806 sqn. So the colour scheme change, must have happened before the Oct date noted by 72modeller. OR both schemes were being used. OR SW846 got a repaint before your evidence point. Over at Cunliffe Owen PR338-379 were delivered March - July 1945 and PR492-506 Nov and later. PR391-436 and PR492-506 straddle the period from July 1945 to Jan 1946 with 45 aircraft leaving the factory before the end of Sept with the remaining 32 being Oct and later. Another thread where this was discussed https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61488-seafire-xv-queries/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudioN Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Some time ago, somewhere here on BM we discussed EDSG/DSG vs EDSG overall for the Seafire 46 (sorry, can't find that thread again). It seemed that EDSG/DSG ended with LA545, the upper surface camouflage becoming EDSG overall from LA546 onwards. Both aircraft were delivered in January 1946. I do not know if it helps with the Mk. XV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Once again in this thread we see copyright pictures used, & Arliners.net pictures used. Simple rule.....DONT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 11 hours ago, Julien said: Once again in this thread we see copyright pictures used, & Arliners.net pictures used. Simple rule.....DONT New to me. Oops. Ill find others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steben Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 I guess is wikimedia ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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