RFM Panther G

[Peter Browne]

I'm about to start on the RFM Panther G (5018) after finishing the Tamiya 1/35 Panzer IV Ausf. F.  Currently in the throes of deciding the actual vehicle to depict.

 

Now the kit shows that Panther with a rear steel bogie wheel. It also shows with the Daimler-Benz Ambush Scheme.

 

 

 

The images below show a Panther G '211' apparently in the Ardennes. The vehicle has all steel bogies and missing the dots from the above scheme.

Is this meant to be the same vehicle depicted in the RMF kit, or another Panther '211'?  I suspect the artwork is a RFM fantasy. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter Browne]

How would I tell a MNH from a DB Panther G?

[JackG]

I believe the above are depictions of two different Panthers.   Suspicions could be correct about the RFM profile - the LSW( last steel wheel) was a feature introduced in the final year, while dots were dropped from the ambush scheme in October '44 according to that posted link.  Though suppose the steel wheel could have been added in the field?  

 

Back to that link on the Ambush schemes,  fairly certain the members of Missinglynx forums have discredited the idea that primer was used as a camou colour.   Apparently the wording of a directive was misunderstood in modern times - previously vehicles were primed and then completely painted in dark yellow before adding the brown and green.  To save on paint and time, instructions were changed and dark yellow was only applied in segments, followed by the other two colours.   Somehow the idea spread that this method meant primer was left exposed.

 

Some Panther differences discussed here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/panther-questions-t53911-s20.html

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/dailer-benz-panther-g-s-features-t48703-s10.html

 

Something else I found while searching the above is opinion that the RFM turret sits too tall,  something to do with a thick turret ring.  See entry no.6 of this Panther G build:

https://www.track-link.com/blogs/41118

 

regards,

Jack

[Robert Stuart]

The turret height issue with the RFM kit goes away if you approach the build with care ... think about how you approach the turret build, and you should be OK.

 

This is copied from my build in the Panther STGB ( https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235081289-disc-camoflage-panther-g-panther-213-pzreg-31-october-44/&do=findComment&comment=3855667 )

  

On 15/10/2020 at 17:17, Robert Stuart said:

They will can be built as RyeField say in the instructions, but .. there is a but.

Two things to watch
1) If you fit the turret ring (A2) above the hull top (L18), the joint is so tightly engineered that the ring can feel as if it is in properly, but may be high on one side.  This will lead to a larger gap under one side of the turret than the other.
Press A2 down on all sides, and it should seat correctly.

If you glue A2 to A1, you'll probably avoid this bit of the problem (I may be wrong, but, I can't believe this is 'correct' despite RyeFields instructions)


 

 

2) the turret base (A1) needs to be settled into the main turret properly, or it too will give you one high side.
I glued that base before attaching the turret front or rear, and wound up moving it to deal with this problem. 


Dry fitting the turret rear - the gap at either side is a (very) little too big.
That's my fault, dry fitting without the base, that turret rear fitted well.

On the up side, the turret turns smoothly now - that right hand rear corner stopped interfering with the vent.

 

 

[Peter Browne]

Thanks for the replies, very helpful as always! 

 

Regarding the use of a steel wheel on the last bogie station, there appears to be at least two trains of thought:

 

1) Apparently steel wheels could crack the track links when used on the front bogie stations, so as rubber wheels needed replacement, they were swapped around as necessary, and a 860mm Panther steel wheel (when available) fitted to the last station, which had the least effect on track breakage.

 

2) The last bogie station had the greatest amount of stress given the dynamics of double rows of track guide teeth and debris in the tracks being continually trapped between the teeth. This also required the redesign of the idler wheels to eject the debris more efficiently and lessen the pressure on wheels and track.

 

New to me, mightn't be for some...

[Peter Browne]

18 hours ago, JackG said:

I believe the above are depictions of two different Panthers. 

 

Could be two different vehicles, but there are similarities which point to being the same vehicle: Both are on similar hillsides and next to railroad tracks; Both have the standard mantlet without the chin; Both have similar camouflage, in fact looking at the photo with people, the pale camouflage on the edge of the glacis plate near the boy's right foot corresponds to that in the second photo and both have raised rain shields above the mantlet.

 

Looking at Panzerwrecks 'Duel in the Mist 2' (p.16) the tank is described as  belonging to Ustuf. Hubert Kaufmann with Fahrgestell number 121047 on the glacis plate.

 

An artist's depiction of 211 which could be Ustuf. Hubert Kaufmann's vehicle.  Anyway its all steel wheels with chinless mantlet and no DB ambush scheme.

 

[JackG]

Sorry, my misunderstanding - thought opinion sought was about the RFM artwork compared to the period photos.  So yes, the b/w images themselves could be of the same panther.   Only thing different that stands out to me is the camouflage.  Yes, tones look the same, but the second photo the edges have a number of wavy sections not present in the first period photo.

 

Missinglynx is a darn good site, and I continue to refer back to it...

 

"There were two markedly different approaches to the ambush pattens on Panthers between August and October 44; the various 'disc' patterns practised by both MAN and MNH, and the 'dot' pattern practised solely by Daimler-Benz."

  https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/looking-for-picture-of-panther-g-late-725-t321099-s10.html

 

Another discovery and photo, 211 was originally numbered 212.   In the opening post you can actually see the 2 in the first photo now that we know this.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1380023#p1380023

 

 

Concerning diameter of steel road wheels, 860mm is apparently an error from Spielberger, and really should be 800, though Jentz is quoted as being 805mm.  SW Panthers were only manufactured by MAN, with about 30 vehicles equipped this way.   Not intended to be standard, but as a test for further development of the Panther II.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=742021#p742021

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/viewtopic.php?p=1303489#p1303489

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Stef N.]

You are right Jack. I was looking for measurements of towing cables for late Panther Gs and ML had the precise answer I was after. Top resource.

[Peter Browne]

Sorry for any confusion Jack. 

 

I did see that photo, and thought it might be the same one, but the trees in the background don't appear the same in either of the other photos (probably the angle).  Also the camouflage towards the rear of the turret didn't look the same, but that is due of course to the way the turret bends around at the rear. 

 

But you are correct, same vehicle 211 (formerly 212...) in 2./SS-Pz.Rgt 1 commanded by UStuf. Hubert Kaufmann of KG Peiper during the battle of Stoumont.

 

From Panzerwrecks Duel in the Mist 2:

 

Now I'll have to get a steel wheel version as well...

[JackG]

I think in both instances, background vegetation and camou pattern,  appear different due to the different angles of the photos.   Quick study and comparison of rear turret:

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Steben]

Both pictures are put in Roddy McDougall's Panther book as well.

[Peter Browne]

11 hours ago, Steben said:

Both pictures are put in Roddy McDougall's Panther book as well.

 

Thanks Steben.  I assume this is  Panther – External Appearance & Design, Panther book by Roddy MacDougall & Martin Block, which I have on the way!  Also Panzer Tracts 5-3 Panzerkampfwagen Panther Ausf.G...

[Bozothenutter]

12 hours ago, Peter Browne said:

 

Thanks Steben.  I assume this is  Panther – External Appearance & Design, Panther book by Roddy MacDougall & Martin Block, which I have on the way!  Also Panzer Tracts 5-3 Panzerkampfwagen Panther Ausf.G...

Welcome to the rabbit (rabid?) hole......

[Peter Browne]

OK, I decided to completely disregard the three RFM versions in artwork and go for something real! 

 

I also want to point out that the 126 (not 128 as in the RFM illustration and decals...) that was changed to 308 in the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" was Zimmerit coated, which the RFM model does not depict.  Obviously that could be done by someone choosing to add Zimmerit.

 

 

 

So I'm hoping to go with '301' a late G from the 2nd Panzer Division which had run out of fuel. This one also has a chin mantlet and raised crew heater which I wanted to do. 

 

Problem is now finding decals to suit.  Anyone? Mr Tamiya San?

 

 

 

 

[Peter Browne]

I could use the Tamiya decals from kit 35176, for the turret number, however the decals are white with transparent centers...

[JackG]

Archer Fine Transfers has a complete vehicle set for LSSAH wherein you would have to mix  and match the 3 with 01.   The three though doesn't match the style in the period photo, plus the ends of each number would require painting out the white outlines with black ...

 

https://www.archertransfers.com/AR77014.html

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Peter Browne]

Thanks Jack, I have looked at Archer, but no stencil type decals with black fill and white outline.  Kind of frustrating. 

 

Now I'm looking at other vehicles.  I'm doing a few G's, including a Dragon steel wheels and another Late G - all different features including steel wheels, exhausts and mantlets, including an IR type (standard wheels). 

 

For the RF kit, I'm looking for a late G now with chin mantlet and Flammvernichter exhaust, probably either Ardennes or Berlin.  301 would have matched perfectly. 

 

The hard part is finding a vehicle and matching to available decals...

[JackG]

The sample image I posted does have stencil lines, here is a portion blown up to 600 dpi:

 

[Longbow]

There’s also a build log here, for the RFM G

 

The fit on all parts is extremely tight, and watch out for the engine deck plates, so tight they will buckle up if not sanded. 
 

It builds into a nice rendition though. 
 

 

[Retired Bob]

13 hours ago, Peter Browne said:

Now I'm looking at other vehicles.  I'm doing a few G's, including a Dragon steel wheels and another Late G - all different features including steel wheels, exhausts and mantlets, including an IR type (standard wheels). 

Hi Peter, I built a couple of Panthers in the GB last year and I used my Schiffer book by Thomas Jentz for information.  The all steel wheeled Panthers were built in mid-September 44, 23 Ausf.G were made using the steel wheels (800mm diameter) made for the Panther II.  They were given the following serial numbers: Fgst.Nr. 121032 to 121055.  They were all built before Panthers were fitted with the chinned mantlet or the raised fan tower, some were later re-fitted with the raised fan tower.

The Panthers fitted with the steel wheels on the last axle were made by the MAN assembly plant in the last few months of the war, it has been suggested that only 20 or so were made but on the Track-Link site they believe that almost double that figure were made, on that site they also dismiss the RFM Panther colour artworks as fantasy.

The Daimler-Benz assembled Panthers could be identified by spare wheel holders on the rear sides of the turret and they never used the larger self cleaning idler wheels.

Hope this is of some help to your Panther builds.  

[Peter Browne]

On 5/27/2021 at 6:04 AM, Retired Bob said:

Hi Peter, I built a couple of Panthers in the GB last year and I used my Schiffer book by Thomas Jentz for information.  The all steel wheeled Panthers were built in mid-September 44, 23 Ausf.G were made using the steel wheels (800mm diameter) made for the Panther II.  They were given the following serial numbers: Fgst.Nr. 121032 to 121055.  They were all built before Panthers were fitted with the chinned mantlet or the raised fan tower, some were later re-fitted with the raised fan tower.

The Panthers fitted with the steel wheels on the last axle were made by the MAN assembly plant in the last few months of the war, it has been suggested that only 20 or so were made but on the Track-Link site they believe that almost double that figure were made, on that site they also dismiss the RFM Panther colour artworks as fantasy.

The Daimler-Benz assembled Panthers could be identified by spare wheel holders on the rear sides of the turret and they never used the larger self cleaning idler wheels.

Hope this is of some help to your Panther builds.  

 

 

Thanks for the info and advice Bob.  It was the Track-Link article on RFM Panther kit 5018 that prompted me to question the RFM artwork in the fist place.

 

Looked through Panther – External Appearance & Design last night.  It's a great book and has given me lots of ideas for the vehicle to model.  I noticed that many of the late Gs didn't have turret numbers (like @Longbow's great looking Panther above), or even Balkenkreuz in cases.

[Retired Bob]

7 hours ago, Peter Browne said:

Looked through Panther – External Appearance & Design last night.  It's a great book and has given me lots of ideas for the vehicle to model.  I noticed that many of the late Gs didn't have turret numbers (like @Longbow's Panther above), or even Balkenkreuz in cases.

Hi Peter, I may have to get that book though I am trying to curb my kit and book acquisition (unsuccessfully) just because of the shear number of both. 

I too found that late Panther tanks were almost devoid of any markings, the late Panther Dragon kit I was building with the steel wheels on the rear axle had no markings or Balkenkreuz, I found several photos of these machines in my Panzerwrecks books and a post war colour photo of the MAN Panther taken to the USA confirmed the shades of the hard edge colour scheme. (Dragon goes with green over sand)  I paused my build because I was hoping to find a photo with at least some identifying markings.  I built the tracks and running gear as separate removeable assemblies.

Most of these final MAN built Panthers did not have gun cleaning tubes either so I have to fill the dimples in the hull sides. 

[Longbow]

There is a great set of photos from Holland of late DB Panthers knocked out by British forces. I almost came close to building one myself. 
But, I have no plans to build any late Panthers for a long time

 

 

[Peter Browne]

18 hours ago, Longbow said:

There is a great set of photos from Holland of late DB Panthers knocked out by British forces. I almost came close to building one myself. 
But, I have no plans to build any late Panthers for a long time

 

 

 

 

Nice photos!  There you have a source for them?  I wouldn't mind seeing the exhausts...

[Retired Bob]

1 hour ago, Peter Browne said:

Nice photos!  There you have a source for them?  I wouldn't mind seeing the exhausts...

I have those photos in one of the Panzerwreck books, not sure which volume,  That's the only problem with those books, they are a collection of all vehicles so I have to wade through 20 volumes and bookmark the tank that you are looking for, I think they were the standard pipes not the flame resistor ones.