Quick summary: Tomas Chory's Wehrmacht colours vs modern RAL colours.

[Steben]

Note: this a comparison with RAL specs. Not with model paints. By no means I can vouch for a model paint which is labeled as a RAL colour...

[stevehnz]

A quick explanation of this would be welcome Steben, not being an armour nut yet, I've no idea who Thomas Chory is.

Steve.

[Steben]

Tomas Chory is a Czech author and researcher. Linked to Aura Design.
He is famous (within German theme modellers' world) for his work on analysing paint swatches based on original ww2 (RAL) paint cards. A "Mike Starmer" for German ww2 colours.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Wehrmacht-Heer-Camouflage-Colors-1939/dp/8090263429

Edited May 14, 2021 by Steben

[JackG]

I think it would be expected that some colours would not exactly match wartime version, as some ingredients were dropped and replaced with something less toxic?

 

regards,

Jack

[Steben]

17 hours ago, JackG said:

I think it would be expected that some colours would not exactly match wartime version, as some ingredients were dropped and replaced with something less toxic?

 

regards,

Jack

This is perhaps arguably so for paint found on vehicles. Less on official swatches. If so, I wouldn't understand why, because these are pre-war and wartime RAL colour swatch based. One should notice these swatches were all in the same register (840 H, 840 R, ...). Pre-war dark grey for example stayed the same during the war and is still the same. Same applies to pre-war buntfarbenanstrich or RAL 6003 (which should even match to luftwaffe RLM82 for example but that is not fully addressed in the book). Why some brown, grey or green colours swatches would become suddenly different while others wouldn't only because of ingredients is a mystery to me. The only thing that is definitely sure is the variation even in official colour cards of Dunkelgelb. And the change of numbers like 8012 and 8013. The wartime 8002 was dropped and swapped for another colour post-war, but before that it did not change. 8020, 7018, 7027 and 7028 were dropped.
In fact ... only 8010, 1001 and the helmet colours are actually worth tinkering about having no explanation...

Worth noting is the documented use and large stock during the war of RAL6007 (pre-war camo colour). This colour - in both modern and wartime swatch - matches many objects (cans, bottles, ustensils, ammo boxes...) and even matches applied camo on vehicles although this is as good as only the case (until proven) on vehicles ment to be camo'ed in the field (on dark grey and 1943-1944). In other words: factory applied (olive) green was as far as we know RAL6003.

Frankly, I expected much more variation and colour shifting. Let's say about 90% of the German colours are simply reproducible with the modern RAL colour databanks with a wink towards Tiger 131.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Steben

[Bozothenutter]

Not sure what the problem is...

The mis match with the current RAL standard?

That's because they reshuffled the colours in 1953 I think.

As to why they did, that's anyones guess.

[JackG]

That is a new one for me, official paint swatches are not actual paint??  Certainly some chemical composition changes dependent on type of surface application, but surely pigments remain the same?

 

But yes, from what I've read it was in the 1950's that chemicals and pigments were replaced with more 'healthy' versions.  This may have shifted some colours as a result?

 

It is frustrating though from the hobby aspect, that the various model paint brands can have such a variety in their products when looking at particular colours (and it is not just specific to RAL shades).   Even online,  looking at digital examples can provide a wide variety.   This is not even a monitor issue, just observing the RGB values and the numbers do not match from one source to another.  

 

https://www.historycolors.de/english/

is attempting answer the many questions about the RAL paint system and it's history.  Unfortunately the present covid situation has put a halt on their progress.

 

regards,

Jack

Edited May 15, 2021 by JackG

[Steben]

On 14/05/2021 at 23:39, Bozothenutter said:

Not sure what the problem is...

The mis match with the current RAL standard?

That's because they reshuffled the colours in 1953 I think.

As to why they did, that's anyones guess.

Real problems do not exist here.

As said before my main target is restoration. This is merely a comparison between colour swatches. Official ral on one side, researched swatches on the other. 90% match is far from problematic.

[Steben]

17 hours ago, JackG said:

That is a new one for me, official paint swatches are not actual paint??  Certainly some chemical composition changes dependent on type of surface application, but surely pigments remain the same?

 

But yes, from what I've read it was in the 1950's that chemicals and pigments were replaced with more 'healthy' versions.  This may have shifted some colours as a result?

 

It is frustrating though from the hobby aspect, that the various model paint brands can have such a variety in their products when looking at particular colours (and it is not just specific to RAL shades).   Even online,  looking at digital examples can provide a wide variety.   This is not even a monitor issue, just observing the RGB values and the numbers do not match from one source to another.  

 

https://www.historycolors.de/english/

is attempting answer the many questions about the RAL paint system and it's history.  Unfortunately the present covid situation has put a halt on their progress.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Not quite understand the first line ... what I ment is that it is astonishing that so many swatches are the same even with the change of pigments and some not. It is not that greens are off and reds are OK. Only some tans. Only some greens... that is strange. There are not millions of base pigments.... I've mixed automotive paints for some time and all ral colours were made with ... 20 pigments? With some even unused... RAL 6014 is a known change in the 60ties. But that was metamerism, not a pigment issue.

 

But this is all of low importance. I just posted work in progress.... now I am on to finding mixes for early 8002, 8010 and 1001.

[JackG]

There does appear to be two camps of thought when it comes to wartime and modern RAL paint charts and their similarity or dissimilarity. 

 

Can only pass on second hand information. but according to a vehicle restorer in the USA (he goes by the name snapdragonxxx on the Finescale Modeler forums), he has been in contact with a paint manufacturer in Germany that operated during the war.   They have original swatches from that period that include;

- actual formula with listed ingredients
- a physical example in painted form
- cmyk values (for printing?)

 

Directly quoting the individual from the States:

"At the end of the war the allied powers who were ruling Germany made every effort to remove everything the Reich did. Even colours were removed from the RAL colour list. Those listed between 1933-1945 were removed and some used were kept in but may have had the colour changed a little. The waters are quite muddy there."

 

He also explains that he has a private agreement with this German paint company to fill out special paint orders for his vehicle restorations.  So have to wonder, why the need for this special arrangement, if modern charts are supposedly the same for wartime?   Then again, as others have said, it could all be bunch of bull crap...

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Steben]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

There does appear to be two camps of thought when it comes to wartime and modern RAL paint charts and their similarity or dissimilarity. 

 

Can only pass on second hand information. but according to a vehicle restorer in the USA (he goes by the name snapdragonxxx on the Finescale Modeler forums), he has been in contact with a paint manufacturer in Germany that operated during the war.   They have original swatches from that period that include;

- actual formula with listed ingredients
- a physical example in painted form
- cmyk values (for printing?)

 

Directly quoting the individual from the States:

"At the end of the war the allied powers who were ruling Germany made every effort to remove everything the Reich did. Even colours were removed from the RAL colour list. Those listed between 1933-1945 were removed and some used were kept in but may have had the colour changed a little. The waters are quite muddy there."

 

He also explains that he has a private agreement with this German paint company to fill out special paint orders for his vehicle restorations.  So have to wonder, why the need for this special arrangement, if modern charts are supposedly the same for wartime?   Then again, as others have said, it could all be bunch of bull crap...

 

 

regards,

Jack

Well, let's say that this would lead to question whether Tomas Chory and the guys at referenced historycolors.de really have original colour war and prewar colour cards as they show in pictures and whether they are liars?

And yes.... the fact most colours are the same would mean bad business for some that are trying to make money.... Add some enigma add some spice and people will be attracted...

US Olive Drab is such an orchestrated business... Sometimes when I visit events and see all those different vehicles in all sorts of shade I wonder whether it really were the US that bombed Germany or was it the other way around?
US od has worldwide found formulas, both with green and red or ochre and black pigments. I experimented with these different approaches and found them to be frighteningly matching... you know, the fresh paint.
Even here, Nick Millman has produced Munsell values of OD that were during the war. All match within fractions. So why do we have all those differences today? Business. Pure business.

Not only RAL but FS as well changed their database and colours after WW2. They changed glosslevels on OD and made metamerism errors. Etc Etc....

I mean ... do you think some of the resistance I got along the way is pure scientific? Just think of a guy that tries to give people formulas of military colours based on mixing paints you can buy in the toy store? What stuff could be bypassed? A lot. And pssssst... modelers simply like the way the painted for years and years. And psssst nr 2, I really really do not mind. Modelling is simply more than reproducing colours, it is reproducing what happens with colours.
Mind you, I give credit to a lot of paint companies that actually sell great paints based on correct information... The best way to order paint for restorations is buying ideal grade paint already with the right shade. They do exist. They should be rewarded for their work. So I recommend them.

Still, I do wonder about stuff. Just look at Dunkelgelb which had official changes in colour cards. No changes are made on other colours, but change in Dunkelgelb was recorded in directives (old colour to be used, then the "new" yellow etc etc). So why? Yes I know, bombed to hell, scarcity and all that stuff... But is there a "7028 dark yellow pigment" island that the Germans lost while they sat on a olive green and chocolate brown mine? No.
It could be an argument that the amount of dark yellow used was basically a lot bigger than the other colours, which perhaps made the impact bigger.
Or perhaps just as Britain did with chrome oxide for RAF dark green, there was a priority to safe pigment use towards air force paints. Dark Green did not change either, while the ground forces switched to brown paint.
In late 1944 they changed the base colour of the vehicles in the factories to olive green. At some point dark grey could be used instead of dark yellow. Both directive might tell: dark yellow was running out, while the others did not. Yet no proven use of dark grey instead of dark yellow ever is found up till now. Another viewpoint might be tactical: What if they saw the war situation was changing and green base was more suiting for central Europe? But that REALLY is speculation on my part... Imagine a LEO 2 painted in RAL6003, RAL7021 and RAL8017... compare to nowadays NATO... Now ask someone to discern afterwards between the two patterns?

Edited May 16, 2021 by Steben

[JackG]

I do have Chory's book (3rd edition), and is currently considered the best publication on the subject.  His colour samples are, just like Mike Starmer's work, paints that are mixed visually to match original vehicles and equipment.   Have not read the book cover to cover, so cannot confirm if he had access to original RAL swatches, but can state there are no photos of these cards.  

 

Unlike HistoryColors, their site is full of images of RAL cards.   Maybe they will do an even more accurate study by measuring colours with proper equipment.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Graham Boak]

One point of contention:  In WW2 OD is known to have existed in a wide range of different hues.  To the extent of appearing different in both b&w and colour photos, on the same aircraft where different parts are made by different manufacturers.  Notably C-47s and B-17s, where C-47 fuselages are noticeably lighter and browner, and B-17 tails which are darker.  I suspect Nick would be suggesting that the standards didn't change, not that the paint itself didn't.

 

Another:  FS did not exist in the war.  It did however change some of its references at a later stage.  I can't be precise, but I obtained my copy from a friend in the late 70s and I believe that the change was after that.

[Steben]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

I do have Chory's book (3rd edition), and is currently considered the best publication on the subject.  His colour samples are, just like Mike Starmer's work, paints that are mixed visually to match original vehicles and equipment.   Have not read the book cover to cover, so cannot confirm if he had access to original RAL swatches, but can state there are no photos of these cards.  

 

Unlike HistoryColors, their site is full of images of RAL cards.   Maybe they will do an even more accurate study by measuring colours with proper equipment.

 

 

regards,

Jack

I am smiling now.

I'm looking forward to the possible situation in which Tomas' chips are way off from the RAL wartime cards while his findings on vehicles do match the current RAL cards (you know, apart from 8010 and 1001).
Just imagine 
Tomas does mention where the colours match official colour cards (definitely DG nach Muster for example)

Edited May 16, 2021 by Steben

[Steben]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

One point of contention:  In WW2 OD is known to have existed in a wide range of different hues.  To the extent of appearing different in both b&w and colour photos, on the same aircraft where different parts are made by different manufacturers.  Notably C-47s and B-17s, where C-47 fuselages are noticeably lighter and browner, and B-17 tails which are darker.  I suspect Nick would be suggesting that the standards didn't change, not that the paint itself didn't.

 

Another:  FS did not exist in the war.  It did however change some of its references at a later stage.  I can't be precise, but I obtained my copy from a friend in the late 70s and I believe that the change was after that.

Olive drab on aircraft was definitely with chrome oxid green. This was OD41 "dark" olive drab. When new formulas appeared in 1943 (ANA), OD319 being the same as OD9 (not OD41), the Air Force rejected the use of the new paint. The old paint did fade immensely towards light brownish (as if the green disappeared). A different age was enough to have different hues.

Such pictures do not exist for vehicles.
The influence of water and fluids etc is immense. This suggests that the gloss level makes for huge difference in appearance.

OD41 never was put on vehicles AFAIK.
What did happen, was the introduction of semi-gloss OD near the end of the war on vehicles.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Steben

[Bozothenutter]

12 hours ago, Steben said:

 

Not quite understand the first line ... what I ment is that it is astonishing that so many swatches are the same even with the change of pigments and some not. It is not that greens are off and reds are OK. Only some tans. Only some greens... that is strange. There are not millions of base pigments.... I've mixed automotive paints for some time and all ral colours were made with ... 20 pigments? With some even unused... RAL 6014 is a known change in the 60ties. But that was metamerism, not a pigment issue.

 

But this is all of low importance. I just posted work in progress.... now I am on to finding mixes for early 8002, 8010 and 1001.

1001, ww2 elfenbein/ivory.......was one of the colours that changed to beige-ish....which  led to people painting the interiors of their tanks beige.....Beige!

Quite funny actually....

[Graham Boak]

I am referring to the finish on new aircraft, not due to differential fading.  Vehicles are a lot smaller than aircraft, and manufactured at a single factory rather than having major sub-assemblies produced elsewhere.  Given that this variety was due to a lack of control over the production standards, and that paint for vehicles would have undergone the same massive expansion of needs, and passed through the same Army supply chains, I think it inevitable that different hues of OD will have been visible on different vehicles from different sources.  Anything else would be most unlikely.

[Steben]

13 hours ago, Bozothenutter said:

1001, ww2 elfenbein/ivory.......was one of the colours that changed to beige-ish....which  led to people painting the interiors of their tanks beige.....Beige!

Quite funny actually....

 

Well...... exactly! Look at this. the modern swatch above is modern "Elfenbein" RAL 1014. The one below is "Beige" RAL ... 1001 !!!.
This means the modern 1001 mostly matches the old 1001, but the name changed. While modern "Elfenbein" is almost an off white.
The old 1001 is just a tad darker.

[Bozothenutter]

The Germans must have had very different ivory to the rest of the world.....

[JackG]

Wonder if the interior colour was darkened during the war?  I recall reading somewhere that sunlight that entered through any openings could bounce around and blind the crew.

 

Anyhow, some early paint swatches of RAL 1001 and it's previous incarnation as 20m,  both of which look more a match to the modern example posted above:

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Troy Smith]

16 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I am referring to the finish on new aircraft, not due to differential fading. 

 

17 hours ago, Steben said:

A different age was enough to have different hues.

 

an example of different OD on a new plane, note the central fin panel.

There was a fascinating photo take at the end of the war showing a C-47 in a patchwork of colours

 

@Dana Bell has done a book on Olive Drab and Neutral Gray, and he'd be able to add more.

 

There is an interesting thread here

in particular  

On 15/08/2013 at 08:29, Nick Millman said:

The pigment formula for Dark Olive Drab 41 was not specified but listed as 'optional'. This allowed manufacturers to formulate their own pigments for OD paints which whilst ostensibly matched to a single standard (and the Army vehicle standard was 319 in Spec. 3-1 of 1943) would inevitably head in different directions with exposure, treatment and weathering. There was also an acknowledgement of variance in the provision of paints as advised in Army FM 5-20H - Camouflage Materials and Manufacturing Techniques, Section 1. Paragraph 5, PAINTS. (e). ... of July 1944:-

"In spite of color standardization, there is considerable variation in hue between lots and between the products of different manufacturers."

There was also a difference in the appearance of the gloss and matt versions of the colour, used for different purposes.

Nick

 

Nick no longer posts here, but is contactable via his blogs.  

 

I'll post that C-47 pic if I can find it.

 

 

[Steben]

2 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

 

an example of different OD on a new plane, note the central fin panel.

There was a fascinating photo take at the end of the war showing a C-47 in a patchwork of colours

 

@Dana Bell has done a book on Olive Drab and Neutral Gray, and he'd be able to add more.

 

There is an interesting thread here

in particular  

 

Nick no longer posts here, but is contactable via his blogs.  

 

I'll post that C-47 pic if I can find it.

 

 

 

Thanks!

Of course I already think of that tail as (semi-)glossy, enough for a serious difference.
And exactly that tail number is clearly visible now, which might be a problem with the flat OD...

[Steben]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

Wonder if the interior colour was darkened during the war?  I recall reading somewhere that sunlight that entered through any openings could bounce around and blind the crew.

 

Anyhow, some early paint swatches of RAL 1001 and it's previous incarnation as 20m,  both of which look more a match to the modern example posted above:

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

Quite so quite so.
Here I arranged the three modern RAL versions in a row: top (right) 1001 (beige), middle 1014 (elfenbein), below left 1015 (elfenbein hell):


Definitely awkward...
Modern elfenbein variants (normal and "hell"(light)) are found in the early RAL cards. The difference between them is strikingly similar. I have no doubt they will be close to a match again.
The 1001 in Chory's book almost matches modern 1001 beige....

Edited May 17, 2021 by Steben