The correct Boeing grey shade for the corogard areas

[Einar]

Hi everybody,

 

I'm in the process of painting the fuselage and the wings of my Roden Boeing 720 in United airlines livery. I have two questions concerning the grey areas. Firstly, which would be the right color for the wing root or the wing box area? Is it of the same shade of grey as the corogard of the wings? As to the corogard, I understand that these areas were painted with the so called Boeing grey. Which would be the closest paint available for that? My best choice so far is Xtracolor X150 or Canadian Voodoo grey (FS 16515). I know this is an eternal debate but unfortunately I didn't find previous discussions of the theme on this site.

 

Einar

[Alan P]

I know the search engine isn't the best, but these older threads might help:

 

Cheers,

Alan 👍

[Space Ranger]

Corogard has a matte metallic appearance. It is not the same as Boeing Gray

[Einar]

16 minutes ago, Alan P said:

I know the search engine isn't the best, but these older threads might help:

 

Cheers,

Alan 👍

Thank you for your help Alan!

Cheers,

Einar

[Eric Mc]

I would suggest that you just look carefully at as many colour pictures of the aircraft you are basing your model on and just mix and match whatever greys you think are suitable. I've long since ceased agonising over the multiple shades of grey used on airliners. Often, over the course of various maintenance sessions, the shades of grey and metal areas will change as the airline will substitute alternatives to what was originally applied in the factory. Also, these greys weather and fade over time.

[Einar]

1 minute ago, Eric Mc said:

I would suggest that you just look carefully at as many colour pictures of the aircraft you are basing your model on and just mix and match whatever greys you think are suitable. I've long since ceased agonising over the multiple shades of grey used on airliners. Often, over the course of various maintenance sessions, the shades of grey and metal areas will change as the airline will substitute alternatives to what was originally applied in the factory. Also, these greys weather and fade over time.

Thanks Eric,

 

Well, having read the various comments I've come exactly to the same conclusion as you😀👍

 

Cheers

Einar

[Eric Mc]

If I can get hold of any of the Xtracolour specific colours I will - but they are quite hard to come by sometimes so I have to fall back on permutations of Tamiya's and other manufacturers  greys . For instance, I did recently manage to get hold of BEA grey as the grey colour they applied to the lower half of Comets, 1-11s, Tridents etc is quite different to many other greys.

[Skodadriver]

Boeing Gray, which others have pointed out is different from corogard, has been a subject of debate for the 25-odd years I've been building model airliners. The general consensus is that it is very close to FS16515 Canadian Voodoo Grey. If you put "FS 16515 model paint" into Google you'll get a whole range of matches.

 

Corogard isn't a colour as such. The actual stuff consists of aluminium powder mixed into a clear carrier and the appearance varies widely depending on light conditions and wear. The last time I had to mix it I used a by-the-eye mix of Tamiya XF16 and XF56. You can judge the result for yourself here.

 

Hope that's some help

 

Dave G

[Einar]

14 hours ago, Skodadriver said:

Boeing Gray, which others have pointed out is different from corogard, has been a subject of debate for the 25-odd years I've been building model airliners. The general consensus is that it is very close to FS16515 Canadian Voodoo Grey. If you put "FS 16515 model paint" into Google you'll get a whole range of matches.

 

Corogard isn't a colour as such. The actual stuff consists of aluminium powder mixed into a clear carrier and the appearance varies widely depending on light conditions and wear. The last time I had to mix it I used a by-the-eye mix of Tamiya XF16 and XF56. You can judge the result for yourself here.

 

Hope that's some help

 

Dave G

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for your reply. After having read the comments of all the colleagues the shades of the Boeing grey and corogard are now more or less clear to me.

 

However,  I still have a question concerning the Boeing grey that might seem stupid to you. Depending on the airliner type and different airlines in which parts is the Boeing grey paint usually applied? Firstly, are the wing root fairings of that colour? And as to the wings, are there cases where the whole wing (ex. corogard) are of that colour?

 

Cheers,

Einar

[Alan P]

1 hour ago, Einar said:

However,  I still have a question concerning the Boeing grey that might seem stupid to you. Depending on the airliner type and different airlines in which parts is the Boeing grey paint usually applied? Firstly, are the wing root fairings of that colour? And as to the wings, are there cases where the whole wing (ex. corogard) are of that colour?

 

Cheers,

Einar

Hi again, a casual Google of United's 720s suggests the non-Corogard wing parts were natural aluminium anyway...

https://www.airlineratings.com/wp-content/uploads/uploads/720-022-N7203U-Boe-K6409.jpg

 

The photo does suggest there was a narrow fairing at the wing root which was painted...it looks like Boeing Gray!

[Einar]

12 minutes ago, Alan P said:

Hi again, a casual Google of United's 720s suggests the non-Corogard wing parts were natural aluminium anyway...

https://www.airlineratings.com/wp-content/uploads/uploads/720-022-N7203U-Boe-K6409.jpg

 

The photo does suggest there was a narrow fairing at the wing root which was painted...it looks like Boeing Gray!

Hi Alan,

 

Thank you!! You made my day. That picture answers all my questions!

 

Have a nice day

 

Cheers,

Einar

[Eric Mc]

I have been working on a 707 and a 720 build over the past few months and, as is often the case, I have spent hours looking at pictures of 707 and 720s - especially the wings. It seems to me that earlier 707s and 720s did not feature those specific corrugard central panels that became common later - on either the wings or the tailplanes. I'm not altogether sure when corrugard became the norm but it looks to me that it was not in use in the late 1950s and early 1960s. I think it is probably something that came into use in the 1970s. Maybe someone can confirm.

 

My 707 is a 707-436 and is being completed in the original BOAC delivery scheme (1960) and it definitely does not look like any corrugard was applied on those aircraft at that time.

The 720 will be in Irish International Airlines (NOT Aer Lingus) colours and will also be shown in the original delivery scheme (1960 too) and those planes don't show corrugard either.

 

Both 707s and 720s definitely show another shade of gray on the fuselage where the wings are attached. These stand out very clearly on these aircraft because the undersides were  mostly left in bare aluminium. Later (the 1970s onwards) airliners tended to have light gray undersides so the wing box areas on 707s weren't so prominent.

The actual shape of the grey wing box area varies depending on the version of the 707 and/or 720 so you do need to look at a picture of the actual aircraft you are building.

[Eric Mc]

That's a cracking 720 shot (thanks Alan) and it clearly shows that early versions of these Boeings don't seem to have any specific paint applied to the wing centre sections. What is interesting are the different shades of metal you can see which mark out moving aerodynamic surfaces, such as ailerons, flaps and spoilers/air brakes. 

[Einar]

Thanks Eric,

 

You've been very helpful!  It's important info in total.

 

Have a nice day!

 

Cheers,

Einar

[Eric Mc]

Part of the fun of building models is finding this stuff out. Hopefully, I'll get to finish one of my 707/720 projects within the next few weeks. I have a couple of DC-8s waiting in the wings - and that's a whole other story.

[Einar]

6 minutes ago, Eric Mc said:

Part of the fun of building models is finding this stuff out. Hopefully, I'll get to finish one of my 707/720 projects within the next few weeks. I have a couple of DC-8s waiting in the wings - and that's a whole other story.

Yes, you're quite right the investigation of the correct patterns and shades is a very important part of modelling!

 

Good luck with your projects!

 

Einar

[Einar]

On 11/05/2021 at 08:31, Einar said:

Hi Alan,

 

Thank you!! You made my day. That picture answers all my questions!

 

Have a nice day

 

Cheers,

Einar

Hi Alan, coming back to the fantastic picture that you sent me, I have some questions that have arisen, The rear part of the wing is clearly natural metal but in front of that area, from the leading edge backwards there seem to be rectangular areas of different grey shades. In my opinion they don't look metallic or dull aluminium, etc. Do you have any clue what they might be and which shade of grey?

 

I found the following picture of the port wing at the airliners.net pages.

 

Einar

 

https://i.ibb.co/j41ygr6/1526594.jpg

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Julien
no airliners.net photos

[Eric Mc]

Having looked at dozens of pictures of 720 wings, I am pretty sure that the darker area towards the front of the wing is a dull metal rather than grey paint.

 

Notice the vortex generators on the wing. They are completely missing on the Roden 720. But they are included on the Airfix 707.

[Einar]

8 minutes ago, Eric Mc said:

Having looked at dozens of pictures of 720 wings, I am pretty sure that the darker area towards the front of the wing is a dull metal rather than grey paint.

 

Notice the vortex generators on the wing. They are completely missing on the Roden 720. But they are included on the Airfix 707.

Yes, you're probably right. The direction of light must have affected the shine and shade of those areas in the front. Thus, only the area in the middle is darker grey. Why have they painted it like that beats me!

As to the vortex generators, I fortunately have a sheet of them that I ordered from Authentic Airliners decals.

 

Einar

 

[Eric Mc]

Metal panels can look different depending on the angle you are looking at them. Sometimes a panel looks darker than its neighbour in one shot but in another shot of the same aircraft  taken from a different angle, the same panel can appear lighter.

 

The way I look on how models are finished is that we are not making an exact miniature replica of the real thing. What we are doing is replicating, in miniature, the APPEARANCE of the real thing - which is a subtle difference.

 

In many ways what we are doing is creating  a 3D IMAGE of the real thing rather than a 3D COPY of the real thing. When you look at a painting by Rembrandt or by Canaletto, we know that what we are seeing is a 2D representation of a 3D reality. However, we allow our brains to be fooled into accepting that what we are seeing is 3D, when in reality, it isn't.

 

Not that I am trying to claim that my models should be compared to a Rembrandt, of course.

[Einar]

3 hours ago, Eric Mc said:

Metal panels can look different depending on the angle you are looking at them. Sometimes a panel looks darker than its neighbour in one shot but in another shot of the same aircraft  taken from a different angle, the same panel can appear lighter.

 

The way I look on how models are finished is that we are not making an exact miniature replica of the real thing. What we are doing is replicating, in miniature, the APPEARANCE of the real thing - which is a subtle difference.

 

In many ways what we are doing is creating  a 3D IMAGE of the real thing rather than a 3D COPY of the real thing. When you look at a painting by Rembrandt or by Canaletto, we know that what we are seeing is a 2D representation of a 3D reality. However, we allow our brains to be fooled into accepting that what we are seeing is 3D, when in reality, it isn't.

 

Not that I am trying to claim that my models should be compared to a Rembrandt, of course.

Thanks for your thoughts Eric and thank you for taking the time to give me advice. With all the information I have received I will model the United 720. I will then post the outcome on this site.

 

Best regards

Einar

 

 

[Eric Mc]

One thing you will notice with regard to United's Boeing 720s - if you look at the tip of the tail fin you will see that they don't feature the prominent HF "spike" which was fitted to virtually all other Boeing 707s and 720s - and members of the C-135 family too.

 

I think the reason why United did not have these is because, back in the 1960s, United did not have any significant overseas routes (outside of the US, they only flew to Hawaii, Canada and to Central America) so they may have decided that they did not need to have HF radio receiving and transmission equipment fitted.

 

Later, when these United aircraft were sold on, they started being used on longer trips so some had "wire" HF aerials fitted. The Roden 720 "Ceaser's Chariot" (which was used by various rock groups) was one such aircraft and if you look at pictures of it when being used in it's rock 'n roll days, you will see it has been retrofitted with wire HF aerials.

[Bangseat]

Just a suggestion from me having built the Heller 707, I did corogard by spraying Alclad (a non hi shine shade such as matt aluminium) on matt grey primer, as opposed to gloss black as per Alclad SOP. Not grey, but more subtle than a true metallic paint. 

[Einar]

27 minutes ago, Bangseat said:

Just a suggestion from me having built the Heller 707, I did corogard by spraying Alclad (a non hi shine shade such as matt aluminium) on matt grey primer, as opposed to gloss black as per Alclad SOP. Not grey, but more subtle than a true metallic paint. 

Thanks for the idea!

 

Einar

[Julien]

On 11/05/2021 at 09:35, Einar said:

Hi Alan, coming back to the fantastic picture that you sent me, I have some questions that have arisen, The rear part of the wing is clearly natural metal but in front of that area, from the leading edge backwards there seem to be rectangular areas of different grey shades. In my opinion they don't look metallic or dull aluminium, etc. Do you have any clue what they might be and which shade of grey?

 

I found the following picture of the port wing at the airliners.net pages.

 

Einar

 

https://i.ibb.co/j41ygr6/1526594.jpg

 

Please heed the rules on airliners.net images