FAA Avenger Serial Numbers - 848 Sqn May 1945 and 846 Squadron Too!

[mark.au]

Hello all;

 

I've trawled through the very useful threads on here about FAA Tarpons but couldn't find the answer to the question in the subject line.

 

I'm using a Hobby Boss kit and as the S/N determines the gun arrangement, and I really don't want to put a gun in the cowl, is there any way to know what S/N's the Tarpons were in the aforementioned Squadron?

 

Thanks;

Mark.

Edited March 7, 2022 by mark.au

[85sqn]

Hiya Mark, if your using the Hobbyboss kit your greater challenge will be sourcing the domed windows in place of the kits flat style ones. Only the early TBF's had the flat style. 848 Sqn were on Formidable during 1944-1945 and as far as I know, none during that period had the gun in the nose. Of course it depends on when you plan to  model the a/c. The Sqn was formed in 1943 and trained in the States so they may well have operated the earlier version with the nose gun and flat windows. There is a thread you might find useful that has a collection of Fleet Air Arm Avenger information:

 

As an example JZ114 is an 848 Sqn Avenger in BPF markings and is without nose gun. I'm away from my Sturtivant right now but I'm sure someone will be along with serial numbers and codes shortly.

 

[mark.au]

14 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

using the Hobbyboss kit your greater challenge will be sourcing the domed windows in place of the kits flat style ones

 

Hi Nick, thanks for the info.  I have the domed windows covered already - smash-moulded some this morning, they're ready to go.

 

 

I'm modelling my Tarpon for the attacks on Sakishima Gunto in May 1945 so it seems I might be ok with the wing gun arrangement.  I would like to know a specific S/N though, rather than a guess.  Maybe JZ114 will the one!

 

Cheers;

Mark.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by mark.au

[Grey Beema]

I can take a look at Sturtivant a bit later if you would like.

[mark.au]

33 minutes ago, Grey Beema said:

I can take a look at Sturtivant a bit later if you would like.

Much obliged, thanks very much.

[85sqn]

59 minutes ago, mark.au said:

 

Hi Nick, thanks for the info.  I have the domed windows covered already - smash-moulded some this morning, they're ready to go.

 

 

I'm modelling my Tarpon for the attacks on Sakishima Gunto in May 1945 so it seems I might be ok with the wing gun arrangement.  I would like to know a specific S/N though, rather than a guess.  Maybe JZ114 will the one!

 

Cheers;

Mark.

 

 

Absolutely superb job with the glazing. I had to nick some from a spare AM kit.

 

ATBNick

 

 

 

 

[mark.au]

15 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

Absolutely superb job with the glazing. I had to nick some from a spare AM kit.

 

ATBNick

 

 

 

 

Thank you. I forgot to mention that one of the threads I checked looking for S/N info was this one...

 

What an absolutely fantastic job you did with that, I hope mine comes out even close to that.

 

[Ossington 2]

I have wondered about these windows ever since the Frog Avenger was released in the early 70's. Because of light reflection from the curved surface, it is difficult to find a good photo of the internal fuselage. Was it a dome applied over the standard rectangular window opening or was said opening enlarged to match the internal circle and thus cutting through at least two fuselage stringers?

Also, thinking about it, this handy mod allowed an observer a better downward view of such things as freshly dropped smoke buoys, why was it not adopted by the USN?  An enquiring mind would like to know.   

[Ivor Ramsden]

26 minutes ago, Ossington said:

I have wondered ......

So have I, and seeing this made me search. These IWM photos can be enlarged very well and show the structure and the compass inside the domed window. 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157222 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205157222

 

It looks to me like the original opening is retained.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ivor Ramsden

[iang]

1 hour ago, Grey Beema said:

I can take a look at Sturtivant a bit later if you would like.

 

I don't think you'll find any in Sturtivant other than JZ114:376/X, though a lot of 848 service history by serial is recorded. 848 Squadron serials/fleet number tie-ups are very poorly recorded in the official documents relating to 848 squadrons operations at TNA (the poorest record of any squadron with the BPF). The only other serial that I have is JZ446:380/X, but that is from a photograph and relates to operations off Japan. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by iang

[iang]

On 09/05/2021 at 09:37, Ivor Ramsden said:

 

 

It looks to me like the original opening is retained.

Yes, I think you are right. The enlarged fish bowl seems to fit over the original aperture.

 

 

[Grey Beema]

55 minutes ago, iang said:

 

I don't think you'll find any in Sturtivant other than JZ114:376/X, though a lot of 848 service history by serial is recorded. 848 Squadron serials/fleet number tie-ups are very poorly recorded in the official documents relating to 848 squadrons operations at TNA (the poorest record of any squadron with the BPF). The only other serial that I have is JZ446:380/X, but that is from a photograph and relates to operations off Japan. 

 

I wish I had read this before I started but basically bugger all there.  Much less than than I thought and some quite early aircraft.  Virtually no tie up with fleet numbers..

 

JZ446 is not even listed in going to 848 in Sturtivant.

 

This is what I got from about an hours search..

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Grey Beema

[Ossington 2]

Thank You for those photos. ISTR that the Frog transparency was a solid blob. That trailing aerial fairlead is new to me. 

[mark.au]

Getting towards bedtime downunder and a bit to digest.  But, it does seem like I’m going to have to put some structure back in behind the domes.  🤦‍♂️

[mark.au]

2 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

This is what I got from about an hours search..

Thank you for trying, much appreciated.

[Our Ned]

As an aside, there were no Tarpons by 1945!  The RN reverted to the names used by the USN in January 1944 instead of Gannets, Tarpons, Martlets etc (although the RN names may have lingered on in common usage for a while).

[Dunny]

21 hours ago, mark.au said:

Getting towards bedtime downunder and a bit to digest.  But, it does seem like I’m going to have to put some structure back in behind the domes.  🤦‍♂️

Once again a timely discovery for me Mark! A real shame since you'd done such a tidy job,

 

Cheers,

 

Roger

[72modeler]

@mark.au,

 

Does this help?

Mike

 

http://cgibin.rcn.com/jeremy.k/cgi-bin/gzNavySearch.pl?target=06109&series=3

 

paraphrased  from  The Grumman Avenger in Royal Navy FAA Service (Far East  Pacific)

 

1st Avengers  that entered service with the RN in early 1943 were known as Tarpon 1's, changed in 1944 to Avenger II and III (TBM-1, TBM-3)

200 Tarpon 1's were delivered, serial FN750-949, and had the standard USN TBF-1 window fit and smooth tires

200 additional aircraft were delivered, serial JZ100-300, and had the blister observation windows, revised armament, and treaded tires

Avenger II serial JZ301-634, were all built by Eastern Aircraft Division of GM

Avenger III serial JZ635-746 and KE430-539, also Eastern built (few of this variant flew operationally before the end of the war, and it is possible the last batch was never delivered

 

Detail changes, Grumman / General Motors produced aircraft. Externally, those aircraft produced by the two plants were identical, model for model, with the exception of paint finishes, covered later. The Avenger I’s produced by the Grumman factory were fully ‘Anglicised’, with the fitment of British radio and electronic equipment, oxygen and safety systems, as well as ‘Sutton’ seat harnesses, the work being carried out by the Grumman factory, and by Blackburn’s in England, for those aircraft that reached Britain. The Royal navy required an Observers position, and this was situated in the central cockpit, beneath the long canopy, entry and exit being via upwards folding canopy panels on the starboard side. The fitting of the forward-facing Observers seat and, it is believed, in some cases a folding chart table, necessitated the removal and relocation of some electrical and radio equipment, which normally occupied this area on U.S. Navy aircraft. Note that the later batches of Avenger I’s were fitted with blister windows in the rear fuselage, these being fixed over the original openings for the round-edged, rectangular windows. The internal crew areas of Grumman-built aircraft were painted as follows; the pilot’s cockpit, centre cockpit and turret interior were in Bronze Green, with the rear fuselage radio compartment in Interior Green. The inside of the engine bay and cowlings were Light Gray, whilst the entire bomb bay was Interior Green. The Avenger II built by Eastern Aircraft retained some American fittings, including the seat harnesses, although major items, as described above, were replaced with British equipment. The interior colours were as follows; cockpits and entire rear crew area, Interior Green. The engine bay, insides of the cowlings and the entire bomb bay was yellow zinc chromate. The wheel bays, the inside of the gear doors, wheels and landing gear on aircraft from both plants, were Insignia White. Note that the Avenger II had a vertical radio mast, whereas the Avenger I had the angled mast. PAINT COLOURS. The Grumman-produced aircraft were finished in British paints, with the colours being Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey on the upper surfaces and fuselage, with the lower surfaces in Sky. Eastern Aircraft built Avengers were painted in Du Pont paints, using ‘equivalent’ colours. The Extra Dark Sea Grey became Olive Drab, whilst the other colours were replaced by Sea Gray and Sky Gray respectively. In all cases, the camouflage pattern was the same, although there were some variations in the positions and shapes of demarcation lines. ARMAMENT. The early Tarpon/Avenger I, equivalent to the TBF-1, had a forward-firing .30 cal Browning machine gun in the starboard upper engine cowling, with a further .30 cal in the ventral position, whilst the turret was fitted with a .50 cal Browning MG. The bomb bay could accommodate a load of 2,000 pounds of bombs or depth charges, or a single torpedo, and it is worth noting that a ‘standard’ British torpedo would not fit into the aircraft’s bomb bay. However, FAA Avengers were more often employed on level or divebombing missions, as well as dropping depth charges. Torpedo strikes, when undertaken, utilised the American Mark 22 torpedo. 3 The later Avenger I’s (TBF-1C), and the Avenger II and III, was able to carry the same ordnance load, but the offensive armament was changed to two .50 cal Browning MG’s, one in each wing, just outboard of the wing fold. The cowling-mounted .30 cal MG was deleted. Defensive armament was unchanged. FAA Avenger Squadrons (SEAC/PTO) The following is a list of the main Avenger units deployed in the East Indies and Pacific Fleets of the Royal Navy. There were other units, but the locations, ships and deployment is beyond the scope of this article. Where the name of a carrier is shown against a Squadron number, it is the carrier known to have operated the particular Squadron at some time. Note that some Squadrons served on more than one carrier, in various areas of operations, during the course of the campaigns in the SEAC and PTO regions. A check on the FAA Archives web-site will provide more detailed information regarding carrier deployment and operations, as well as general information on land-based ops by FAA Avengers in the PTO. Where possible, an example aircraft has been included. 820 Sqn. H.M.S. Indefatigable 828 Sqn. H.M.S. Implacable 832 Sqn. H.M.S. Begum (previously on other carriers, see FAA Archive.) (example Avenger I, JZ185, coded 4F) 848 Sqn. H.M.S. Formidable (example Avenger I, JZ114, coded 376, ‘X’) 849 Sqn. H.M.S. Victorious (example Avenger II, JZ525, coded P-1X) 854 Sqn. H.M.S. Illustrious 857 Sqn. H.M.S. Indomitable (example Avenger II, JZ594, coded W-1A)

 

Not sure which version you are going to model; according to the data in the link and something I recall reading, TBF-1's were loaned to the FAA and returned, not  scrapped at the end of the war like most lend-lease aircraft. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by 72modeler
added text

[iang]

I forgot to add that if you are planning a 848 Squadron Avenger during Operation Iceberg, Formidable's Avengers were unique among BPF TBR squadrons as they marked with aircraft numbers in the 400 range at some point, rather than the 300 range. The aircraft numbering system was 100 range for single seater fighters, 200 range for two seater fighters and 300 range for three-seater aircraft. So Avengers should have been marked in the 300 range. This is how every other BPF Avenger squadron was so marked, but for an unknown reason 848 Squadron used the 400 range. 

 

 

It is possible to speculate that this was because at some point a four-man crew was carried (by extrapolation of the official ordering based on crew numbers the 400 range was adopted), or they were so marked to distinguish them more easily in the air from other carriers' Avengers, or simply an error. There is a photo of a ditched Avenger in BPF markings with what appears to be 4 crew in the water, which might lend support to the four-man crew hypothesis. In any case, the 400 range numbering was changed to 300 range for operations off Japan, but whether 848 used this system throughout Iceberg, or reverted to the 300 range during Iceberg, I don't know.  Moreover,  I don't think any of the photos of 300 range fleet numbered 848 Avengers can be definitely dated to Iceberg, which may have helped with the dating of these markings. They may all relate to operations off Japan (including the photo of JZ144:376/X).

 

In addition, the fleet number for JZ114/376 may not apply to Iceberg operations at all, but instead it might relate to operations off Japan, as Sturtivant's individual aircraft history for JZ114 is not specific (and it may be that it is derived from the photo of 376/X). It is known that JZ114 survived the war, and given the losses among Formidable's Avengers in the KK attacks of  4 May and 9 May, and the hangar fire of 18 May (caused by Corsair 121/X discharging it's guns), I think the likelihood of JZ114 being an Iceberg survivor for operations off Japan is very slim. 9 Avengers were lost in the KK attack of 4 May, 1 in KK attack of 9 May and despite replacements only 2 Avengers remained serviceable after 18 May (by comparison only one Formidable Corsair as far as I can tell survived Iceberg and was embarked for operations off Japan).

 

If this assumption is correct, then there are no known serial number/fleet number tie ups for 848 Squadron during Iceberg.  

[Graham Boak]

Could it be that 848 misunderstood the system as being based on the previous 3,4 numbers for more than one TBR unit on a carrier?  Would 848 be regarded as the second TBR unit on Formidable?

[mark.au]

On 5/10/2021 at 7:00 PM, Dunny said:

Once again a timely discovery for me Mark! A real shame since you'd done such a tidy job,

You’re welcome, Roger 🙂.  It’s not a hard fix but irritating nonetheless, I should have checked.

 

14 hours ago, 72modeler said:

Does this help?

Oh yes, it helps a great deal, thanks for taking the time to put that together.

 

2 hours ago, iang said:

I forgot to add that if you are planning a 848 Squadron Avenger during Operation Iceberg, Formidable's Avengers were unique among BPF TBR squadrons as they marked with aircraft numbers in the 400 range at some point, rather than the 300 range...

Thank you for that, it’s very interesting indeed.  What is the source of the photo?  I’ve not seen that one in any of the archives I’ve searched.  
 

Actually, the uniqueness of the 400 numbers is an additional reason for picking a 848 aircraft for this project, HMS Formidable’s campaign experience overall being another.  It does mean I’ll have to take a punt on the S/N though.  @Grey Beema’s very helpful post above listing the 848 S/N’s gives me something to work from.

[iang]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Could it be that 848 misunderstood the system as being based on the previous 3,4 numbers for more than one TBR unit on a carrier?  Would 848 be regarded as the second TBR unit on Formidable?

It's another possibility I suppose, though only one TBR unit was embarked on Formidable in 1945. The Fleet numbers weren't applied until early March 1945 , by which time it must have been clear to those onboard that only one TBR squadron would be embarked. After the loss of 9 TBFs in the KK attack of 4 May, Formidable received replacements from Striker and from Victorious. Those from Striker probably would not of had the fleet numbers applied until embarked on Formidable (though all national markings would have been present). Those from Victorious would have been marked in the 300 range, so I suspect that the 400 range Avenger markings may have ended on May 9. Since Formidable didn't deploy to replace Illustrious until 14 April, it would give a narrow window for their existence - hence the poor photographic coverage.

[dogsbody]

Blister windows:

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205153726

 

 

 

Chris

[mark.au]

Hello all, I’m resurrecting this thread to ask another small favour….
 

The 848 model is still in the plans for later this year but I actually started on an 846 Avenger and am struggling to find serial number info, particularly for its final operation on 4th May.  I’m after any of 846’s aircraft but J-P is of particular interest, as well as the Avenger it lost on that operation.  I believe some were in the “FN” range, and some in the “J” range but haven’t gotten any further than that.  

 

Any pointers much appreciated.

 

Cheers.