Mania/Hasegawa B5N

[Graham Boak]

I keep returning to these, but find myself now a little lost as to the correct markings.  Help welcomed.

 

B5N1.  I like the prewar Aluminium with red tails.  However I understand that the red tail with yellow stripes, often claimed to have been the Pearl Harbour attack leader, actually belonged on a prewar example, i.e. B5N1.  Can anyone confirm this, and let me know what other markings this aircraft carried?

 

B5N2:  Pearl Harbour attacker preferred, with the 800kg bomb.  Which unit/aircraft carried these?

 

Either:  The kit torpedo lacks the tail - does anyone have one spare or knows of any source? If not, the kit will get the multiple bomb rack so no problem.  Three Kates would be at least one too many for my lifespan, given other commitments (kits).  Not to mention the need for one with ASV, and a white one with green crosses, and an itch to cross-kit a Kate undercarriage with its fixed u/c reconnaissance elder sister.

 

I have both kit transfers, now a little yellowed, and the Print Scale sheet, to pick and choose options from, if they fit.  If anyone has appropriate spare Airfix transfer sheets, including bits of, I'm willing to fund relieving your stash of their load.

 

 

[Fukuryu]

Sorry I can't help you with details about markings since my references are away from me at the moment (and for the foreseeable future, unfortunately) but regarding the torpedo, hard to do better than this: https://themodelbunker.com/3d-models-kits/13-japanese-imperial-air-force-imperial-navy-wwi-torpedo-with-trolley.html. A bit expensive, though.

 

HTH.

 

[expositor]

Might be some help; the B5N2 which lead the PH attack commander by Fuchida, was AI-301 with what looks like a red tail with the three horizontal stripes.  There are a couple of photos of it trapping aboard the Akagi when in the Indian Ocean, hence the peeling green paint.  As far as I know, all the PH carrier bomber units were equipped with the B5N2.

Re: the 800kg bombs, there were two for that attack; one was constructed from an 18" AP round.  You can see the difference in photos; the AP bomb was not cylindrical.  Examples of planes with that bomb are BII- 307 and AII-352, which have the claw-type retention.  The other bomb I believe to be SAP is in a photo of AI-308, which is suspended with the same type sling as would be the torpedo.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Toryu]

Graham,

 

The only picture of an all-silver B5N with red tail and yellow tail stripes that I have seen is a five-view drawing in the old Profile No. 141, alledgedly showing Fuchida's 'Kate' at PH. These are certainly not the colours that Fuchida's plane sported then, but it's possible that he had continued to use the plane of the time before they were camouflaged (most camouflaging of B5Ns happened en route to BH).  Air Group leaders tended to keep their assigned mounts, often equipped with special features.  If that's so, then the silver bird would be a B5N2 (like shown in the Profile publication) used by Fuchida at Kasanohara/Kagoshima during fall 1941.

 

The following carrier air groups carried 800 kg bombs during the attack:

First wave -

AKAGI  2nd squadron  code AI

KAGA  1st squadron  code AII

SORYU  2nd squadron  code BI

HIRYU  1st squadron  code BII

Second wave -

ZUIKAKU  3rd squadron  code EII

 

The 'Kate' with fixed undercarriage that you mention is most likely a Mitsubishi B5M1 - not the same plane but a contender of the Nakajima 7-shi entry.

 

Cheers, Michael

 

[Graham Boak]

Thanks to all for for the information.  I'll stick with the prewar scheme provided for the B5N1 and forget the Fuchida option.

 

I have one of the 800kg bomb variants, which I presume is the SAP one.  I'll do a check with the markings I've got.

 

Toryu: not the B5M1 but the C3N1.  I ended up with two of these kits some years back when I was attempting to make sense of the contradictory drawings of the D3N, on the assumption that it was a third sister design.  However before getting very far Arawasi published photos of the real thing, looking rather more like a Dauntless and illustrating the progress Nakajima's structural designers had made.  So what could be done with a spare C3N?  There's not exactly a lot of options, so I wondered about a potential C3N2 with retractable undercarriage.  However, should it ever happen, I'm sure I could create something from the spares box without buying a new Kate kit just for the u/c.

[Fukuryu]

Graham, you can buy just the undercarriage plus parts for the folding wing from SAC, although I don't think it would be cheaper than a new kit: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/SAC72117?result-token=gIvoA.

[Graham Boak]

Interesting and requires thinking about,  perhaps if I wanted to do a folding wing I'd be more tempted.  But the C3N was land based, with a smaller wing (might have the same section), and wouldn't require as sturdy an undercarriage.  I haven't actually looked in the bits box but I'm sure I can find something  That I haven't gives some idea of the priority.  However, certainly cheaper than another kit..

[Fukuryu]

Just an idea, you can use the folding wing parts for one of your Mania/Hasewaga B5Ns and the u/c for the C3N (which I assume is the AML kit). Regarding price, I don't know how is the situation in England now with out of country purchases, but you can get Hasegawa's B5N2 for less than 5 GBP at HLJ. Enough parts left for an interesting in-fligh, torpedo-dropping vignette...

[Graham Boak]

Cheap  Even with postage, VAT and handling charge (if any).  As a guide, Hannants have old box Hasegawa B5N1 at £10.79, but out of stock.  New Hasegawa at over £34.  Not in stock.  New Hasegawa kits are a ridiculous price here.  The Airfix kits are OOP but a second hand B5N1 is £20.  I have a Mania (singleton) and a Hasegawa, but if I wanted another I'd like to try the Airfix.

[Fukuryu]

Agree. I have both Hasegawa's B5N1 and B5N2 (I don't remember how many... so sad) but from now on is Airfix for me, even at four time the price. Unless I want to make a "markings display model", like the one in surrender markings you mentioned at the beginning; I wouldn't waste a detailed Airfix kit for that, but that's just me.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Fukuryu

[MDriskill]

Well I suppose the ship has sailed on Graham's build choice, LOL! But for whatever it's worth at this point, here is the profile of Fuchida's Pearl Harbor machine from the ModelArt PH Special, published in 2000:

 

 

 

And the prettied-up version on Hasegawa's 1/48 scale B5N kit:

 

 

 

And last the kit notes for the markings - I was not aware of the "1's" under the wings. The AP bomb is 48 mm long in the kit, which would make it 32 mm in 1/72.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

The ship carrying the B5N1 may have sailed, but I still have a B5N2.  I notice that there's no yellow stripes on the tailplane, and sadly that he carried the "wrong" bomb.  I suppose, as an alternative, that he did carry the multiple bomb racks sometime.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MDriskill]

Graham...I am no Japanese ordinance expert (or I may have misunderstood what you were looking for), but the kit instructions label that as, "800 kg deck-piercing bomb"...! And I have a book that seems to agree.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

Interesting!  I was sure that the bomb I have has parallel sides.  Not so sure now.  Will check later.

[Fukuryu]

This may also help to sort out details: https://j-aircraft.com/research/bill_sanborn/phmod21.pdf

[expositor]

I forgot about that J-Aircraft file.  I was unsure if the cylindrical 800kg bomb was SAP or HE; thanks MD and F for those clarifications!  So GB, let us know what you decide to model.

[Graham Boak]

6 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Interesting!  I was sure that the bomb I have has parallel sides.  Not so sure now.  Will check later.

It has indeed parallel sides.  A quick check shows that it actually comes from the Fujimi Jill  (different plastic colour).  I have one Mania-1  kit and one Hasegawa -2 early box.  I no longer have the Hasegawa instructions as they presumably went with the other Mania kit to another modeller.  The Mania instructions do not show either 800kg bomb.  The example shown above does appear to be a later Hasegawa boxing, offering this option that didn't initially exist.  At the moment the Hasegawa boxing is furthest advanced but as an -1. except that the (still separate) wing has had an experimental Hemp painting as per Nick Millman's recommendation.  The problem with making kits spread out over years/decades is that things do happen to them which don't seem to make a lot of sense in retrospect.  However as they are the same tooling really there'll be no problem in switching wings over rather then trying to cover the Hemp with a Aluminium.

 

So, unless I swap the engine/cowling with the untouched one, the B5N2 is still a long way downstream but the Fuchida one is probably out - not sure I'd want both with red tails anyway.  So despite a wide range of transfers available, I just might end up doing an ASV aircraft or even the green cross one.  In view of the monotony of IJN camouflage I find this white one more attractive: after all, I really need one model in this scheme, don't I?  Plus it doesn't need to be quite so perfectly painted...

 

Thanks to everyone for the help.

[Fukuryu]

There was a special boxing by Hasegawa of its ex-Mania B5N2 with a resin 800kg bomb. I may even have it! (Stranger things have happened when going through my stash).

 

Good save on the wings, but just in case: for removing enamels, I submerge the part (or even entire models) in sodium hypochlorite , a.k.a. bleach. A gentle scrub after a few hours with a soft toothbrush (preferible an older, discarded one... don't reach for the one on your bathroom if you'd like to keep it for is intended use, unless you want your teeth really white), rinse well, let it dry and is ready to be painted again. Depending on how the parts were glued you may have to do it again or not.

 

HTH.

[Denford]

14 hours ago, Fukuryu said:

There was a special boxing by Hasegawa of its ex-Mania B5N2 with a resin 800kg bomb. I may even have it! (Stranger things have happened when going through my stash).

 

Good save on the wings, but just in case: for removing enamels, I submerge the part (or even entire models) in sodium hypochlorite , a.k.a. bleach. A gentle scrub after a few hours with a soft toothbrush (preferible an older, discarded one... don't reach for the one on your bathroom if you'd like to keep it for is intended use, unless you want your teeth really white), rinse well, let it dry and is ready to be painted again. Depending on how the parts were glued you may have to do it again or not.

 

HTH.

 

Actually, if you did use a 'current' toothbrush and provided you rinsed it really well you'd be doing yourself a favour (or favor) if you are American!  Hypochlorites are good disinfectants and your toothbrush would then be bacteria free.  Also bristles on a 'current' brush are likely to be stiffer (and so better scrubbers) than on one that was 'past it'.

 

That said, I too would always use an old toothbrush, of which I retain a few for similar such uses.  Toothbrushes are better cleaned with Hydrogen Peroxide.

 

Hope this isn't too much off thread: from Hasegawa/Mania 'Kate' to dental hygiene!

[TISO]

For japanese profiles for PH attack this is usefull:

https://japanese-aviation.forumotion.com/f2-color-profiles

[Fukuryu]

Sidnei Maneta's site is a labour of love and very informative and inspirational, although I don't agree with the colour choices he made at the time, particularly regarding early A6M. I still like it a lot and I applaud his commitment to have it created.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Fukuryu

[Fukuryu]

@Graham Boak, if you haven't yet decided on the torpedo and/or 800 kg bomb, here are a couple of cheaper options, and closer to you:

 

Type 91 torpedo: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CMK7404?result-token=gIvoA

 

Type 99 800 kg ordinary bomb: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CMK7405?result-token=gIvoA

 

And, just in case you want something fancier than what is provided with the kits...

 

Type 98 250 kg bombs: https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CMK7406?result-token=gIvoA

 

HTH.

[TISO]

On 04/05/2021 at 15:03, Graham Boak said:

Interesting and requires thinking about,  perhaps if I wanted to do a folding wing I'd be more tempted.  But the C3N was land based, with a smaller wing (might have the same section), and wouldn't require as sturdy an undercarriage.  I haven't actually looked in the bits box but I'm sure I can find something  That I haven't gives some idea of the priority.  However, certainly cheaper than another kit..

Yes C3N1 was smaller than B5N1 as it was not ment to carry rather heavy bomb/torpedo load around. It looked like smaller baby sized fixed U/C B5N1

From what i gather similarity beween C3N1 and B5N1 was intentional.

C3N1 was ment as long range scout plane for the carrier groups. Both C3N (led by Fukuda Yasuda) and B5N (led by Nakamura Katsumi) development teams closly cooperated to make the planes as similar as possible logistically vise to allow intercangebility of spare parts.

C3N was finished sooner and tested satisfactory. After B5N was tested it also proved to be effective as long range recconaissance plane and C3N1 was not accepted in production as navy didn't see sense of using 2 different planes if 1 could do both jobs. 2 planes produced were sent to to China to 12. Kokutai as ground base long range recce planes and were used from 1937 to 1940 in Shangai and Hankow area.

[Graham Boak]

I wouldn't have described the C3N as "baby sized", it being of very similar dimensions and shape as the B5N but for the smaller wing - basically appearing to be than of the B5N with a smaller centre-section.  I'm rather surprised to discover that they had different design leaders - they both could have come from the same project but "tuned" for their different roles.  Rather like the Russian habit of the TsAGI handing out basic configurations to individual design teams to produce their individual aircraft, but rather more so.

 

The cancellation of the C3N because the B5N could do the same job appears to be a poor decision given the following need to buy Ki,15 "Babs" for the same role of a dedicated reconnaissance aircraft.  Yes, land-based, but I had assumed that so was the C3N.  Not wanting different types on a carrier deck is a clear driver, but the Navy's involvement in long-range land-based operations was surely visible?

[TISO]

RE C3N1

my info here is a short but good article in russian:

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/spyww2/c3n.html