Vought Corsair IV KD838 FAA

[Ed Russell]

Some questions about Vought Corsair Mk IV KD838. FG-1D Corsair in BPF service, overall Gloss Sea Blue.

It is depicted on an Xtradecal sheet and there’s a very nice build here.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083878-vulcanicitys-corsair-iv/

The only picture I can find, (reproduced from Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft 1939-45 for study purposes) is captioned 1851 NAS. However, the Xtradecal sheet (referencing Hayward’s Fleet Air Arm in Camera) has it as being from 1834 NAS on the instructions. Which is correct?

 

 

Looking at the picture it is reasonable to suppose that the band on the nose is a different colour to the white of the roundel. However, looking at a few BPF Corsair and other pictures, the letters and numbers appear a slightly different shade of white (as they do on this picture) to the roundel but it is accepted that they were white. Is there any documentary evidence of a yellow cowling band for 1834 or 1851 squadrons?

[Ed Russell]

Ha - prompted by @ClaudioN let's read the right Xtradecal caption properly and realise it does say 1851 Sqn. Okay, part 1 answered!

[Vulcanicity]

Thanks for the compliment Ed! For what it's worth I had this photo available when I built mine and decided that yellow (as suggested by Xtradecal) was plausible for the cowling ring, as it's clearly a different tone to either the white of the BPF roundel or that of the codes, which are much closer to each other than either is to the cowling. Of course there is a FG1D airworthy at Duxford with a yellow cowling in BPF colours although I'm not sure how accurate this is or indeed which unit it's representing.

[Graham Boak]

There is a familiar profile doing the rounds for some years with an entirely yellow cowling, but this has been suggested to have been a replacement in Zinc Chromate primer without its top colour.

[Grey Beema]

I would need to validate but did some USN Corsairs start using a yellow cowl band for Ops over the Japanese mainland?  If so, and bearing in mind USN practices were being emulated, would the 15th Air Group on HMS Venerable have been marked ready to take part in those operations?

 

Need to get @ClaudioN, @iang involved in this..

 

[EwenS]

10 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There is a familiar profile doing the rounds for some years with an entirely yellow cowling, but this has been suggested to have been a replacement in Zinc Chromate primer without its top colour.

 

This is one profile that does have photo evidence to back it up. Don’t know the exact colour.

https://www.hms-vengeance.co.uk/corsair.htm

 

You need to to scroll down the page a bit.

 

The aircraft on the light fleet carriers in late 1945 / early 1946 show a number of paint anomalies. A Barracuda on Colossus with purportedly Sky panels around the nose for example.

[Graham Boak]

Are these wartime or warbird?

 

Maybe I'm getting cynical in my old age, but there are so many profiles in the modelling magazines that, for various reasons (some of which are reasonable enough), are not a good match for history.  I must however own up for a soft spot for this one, half hoping, half-expecting, someone to come back with "But Chance Vought didn't use yellow primer..."

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Since I had the data while looking elsewhere.  KD839/Bureau Number 76417 was accepted on 28 November 1944, delivered on 2 December.

[85sqn]

There are more photos of 1850/1851 sqns aboard Venerable and Vengeance (off the top of my head) that have the band on the cowling. I do have several original photos that I believe are taken post-war. I've always thought that they were white but I'd need to take another look.

 

 

[Ed Russell]

@85sqn That would be helpful.

There are more (indecisive) photos here

https://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/aircraft_carriers/hms_venerable_16_george_deeks_collection_page_5.htm

 

[Ed Russell]

On 5/4/2021 at 1:15 AM, 85sqn said:

There are more photos of 1850/1851 sqns aboard Venerable and Vengeance (off the top of my head) that have the band on the cowling. I do have several original photos that I believe are taken post-war. I've always thought that they were white but I'd need to take another look.

That would be helpful.

 

I have shown the photo to a few others and "the same white as the 111" is winning.

There were a few comments about Xtradecals research, which I have found to vary between the very good and not-so-good, mostly good.

[Troy Smith]

There is a photo of a BPF Corsair with a pale nose band in this book

 

Mine is not to hand,  I remember mentioning this to @iang  while asking if the warbird FG-1D in BPF markings had any basis in fact

this was the Corsair

 

Goodyear FG-1D Corsair ‘KD345 / 130-A’ (G-FGID) by Alan Wilson, on Flickr

 

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/site_graphics/Aircraft/Aircraft---Britain/Goodyear_FG-1D_Corsair_The_Fighter_Collection_G-FGID-_QFO_Duxford-_United_Kingdom_PP1121194368.jpg

 

"Goodyear FG-1D Corsair (BuNo. 88297), (Serial No. KD345), Reg. No. G-FGID, The Fighter Collection, Duxford, Cambridgeshire.  This Corsair served in the US Navy between 1945 and 1959; this included wartime service in Guam and the Philippines.  It was then sold to a smelting company, however instead of scrapping it, the company sold it to the movie stunt pilot Frank Tallman.  It joined the Fighter Collection in 1985 and is currently painted in the December 1945 markings of an aircraft of 1850 Naval Air Squadron, serving on HMS Vengeance of the British Pacific Fleet."

http://silverhawkauthor.com/warplanes-of-the-second-world-war-preserved-in-the-united-kingdom-goodyear-corsair-and-vought-corsair_773.html

 

So these may well be the images @85sqn is referring to

On 03/05/2021 at 16:15, 85sqn said:

There are more photos of 1850/1851 sqns aboard Venerable and Vengeance (off the top of my head) that have the band on the cowling. I do have several original photos that I believe are taken post-war. I've always thought that they were white but I'd need to take another look.

 

[Ed Russell]

On 5/5/2021 at 7:55 PM, Troy Smith said:

I remember mentioning this to @iang  while asking if the warbird FG-1D in BPF markings had any basis in fact

this was the Corsair

There is a contemporary picture of three Corsairs flying together of which the middle one (130) has a pale coloured cowling - I suppose it could be any colour. There may or may not be documentation to say it is yellow.

[iang]

I've not seen any official documentation indicating yellow ID markings on FAA PTO Corsairs. Like Graham, I remain skeptical of the yellow cowling band profile. With respect to KD838, I agree that the codes and ID letters are not white. CAFO 1099 (June 1945) mandated that distinguishing symbols were to be painted in Sky or Medium Grey.  During the restoration of KD431, the FAAM discovered that the code was pale blue and interpreted this as an attempt to comply with CAFO 1099. There are other examples of BPF non-white aircraft codes. Indefatigable's 820 Squadron Avengers provide clear evidence for this.

 

On KD838 it looks as if the cowling band is the same colour as the code. Further than that, I think it impossible to evaluate whether they are Sky, Medium Grey or (possibly) a local mix of pale blue.

 

IG

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by iang

[noelh]

On 5/5/2021 at 10:55 AM, Troy Smith said:

There is a photo of a BPF Corsair with a pale nose band in this book

 

Mine is not to hand,  I remember mentioning this to @iang  while asking if the warbird FG-1D in BPF markings had any basis in fact

this was the Corsair

I have that book on my lap as I write this. There is definitely no image of a British Corsair with a nose band, white or yellow in the book. However there is a picture of a Kiwi Corsair in retirement which has some kind of band on the cowling. 

 

Could that be what you're referring to? 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, noelh said:

I have that book on my lap as I write this. There is definitely no image of a British Corsair with a nose band, white or yellow in the book. However there is a picture of a Kiwi Corsair in retirement which has some kind of band on the cowling. 

 

Could that be what you're referring to? 

 

 

Page 43, described as Kiwi, which is wrong,  but actually BPF 

Made me dig out the book, (it was quite buried)

this one

Corsair BPF 116,130,124 50620925 jp by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

The restored Corsair is described as Dec 1945

 

On 03/05/2021 at 16:15, 85sqn said:

There are more photos of 1850/1851 sqns aboard Venerable and Vengeance (off the top of my head) that have the band on the cowling. I do have several original photos that I believe are taken post-war. I've always thought that they were white but I'd need to take another look.

 

 

is this one of that sequence Nick? 

[noelh]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Page 43, described as Kiwi, which is wrong,  but actually BPF 

Made me dig out the book, (it was quite buried)

this one

Corsair BPF 116,130,124 50620925 jp by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

The restored Corsair is described as Dec 1945

 

is this one of that sequence Nick? 

That explains it. In fact on page 44 what's clearly a BPF Corsair landing on a carrier is described as RNZAF. But they were all land based. 

 

The caption guy was having a bad day. 

[85sqn]

Hi chaps, totally forgot about the thread. Will have a look for my photos later. That photo Troy, is the aircraft that the Fighter Collections FG-1D is based on as mentioned up above. There is a thought that it is actually primer. I'm sceptical about that and have to ask why would they operate in a maritime environment with a large area in just primer? 

 

I have seen another photo which was for sale in eBay with a MkIV being dumped over the side with a cowling ring as well. The photo went for mega money but thats by the by!

[EwenS]

3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Page 43, described as Kiwi, which is wrong,  but actually BPF 

Made me dig out the book, (it was quite buried)

this one

Corsair BPF 116,130,124 50620925 jp by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

The restored Corsair is described as Dec 1945

 

is this one of that sequence Nick? 

This photo also appears in The Squadrons and Units of the Fleet Air Arm dated to late 1945 with the comment:-

“KD345 130/A is sporting a replacement engine cowling, most likely still in a light coloured primer.”

[Troy Smith]

41 minutes ago, 85sqn said:

There is a thought that it is actually primer.

I don't see why either, as by this stage Gloss Sea Blue was the basic colour for all Corsairs.   Why would there be replacement parts just in primer? 

I'll @Dana Bell as he may have some comments on how spares were finished.  I've no memory of seeing USN planes with primer only replacement parts. 

 

4 minutes ago, EwenS said:

This photo also appears in The Squadrons and Units of the Fleet Air Arm dated to late 1945 with the comment:-

“KD345 130/A is sporting a replacement engine cowling, most likely still in a light coloured primer.”

so a guess. 

 

Other guess would be a temporary  exercise marking,  or a flight leader?  

 

One point, the light colour appears to be also behind the cowl flaps.    

 

@iang anything on KD345/130A in the files?   (the above was the image I mentioned to you a few years back when asking about the warbird scheme)

[iang]

1 hour ago, 85sqn said:

I have seen another photo which was for sale in eBay with a MkIV being dumped over the side with a cowling ring as well. The photo went for mega money but thats by the by!

 

I think I bought that one. It is of 119 (actually X/119 from 1841 Squadron, HMS Formidable).I s this the one you are thinking of? The tail code is not visible (otherwise it would have probably gone for an even more ludicrous sum), but "R" is clearly visible under the Corsair as it is being pushed over the side. It has cowl marking the same as KD345/130A, with the cowl flaps painted in the lighter colour too.

 

Formidable was only marked with a deck ID letter "R" for Operations of Japan, so this aircraft is probably KD560 (from the Admiralty records). There are conflicting reports concerning it's fate, but it certainly flew on 9 and 10 August 1945 according to the 1842 Fair Flying Log. The pilot's name is under the canopy, but not completely readable. However, during Operation Iceberg, X/119 was the usual aircraft of Lt MacKinnon and this could be the pilot's name under the canopy .  Some sources suggest that during Operations of Japan, X/119 was Gray's usual mount, but Hampton Gray doesn't match what is written.

 

This is the only other Corsair that I've seen with markings similar to A/130. but I've not seen any documentation that would provide an explanation.

 

[Troy Smith]

On 02/05/2021 at 01:02, Ed Russell said:

 

 

Looking at the picture it is reasonable to suppose that the band on the nose is a different colour to the white of the roundel. However, looking at a few BPF Corsair and other pictures, the letters and numbers appear a slightly different shade of white (as they do on this picture) to the roundel but it is accepted that they were white. Is there any documentary evidence of a yellow cowling band

 

On 03/05/2021 at 07:36, Grey Beema said:

I would need to validate but did some USN Corsairs start using a yellow cowl band for Ops over the Japanese mainland?

http://www.pmcn.de/English/USN Markings III/USN Markings III.htm

"

Other Markings:

As before. For attacks on Kyushu (homeland Japan) in spring 1945 a white or yellow ring around the front of the cowling was applied in washable paint."

example

 

may have no relevance to something use in the BPF, and you would expect it to be on more aircraft?  

 

 

Is there a date for 111/B image?  That may help, and separate from the 130/A image, which seems to be post war ?  (Dec 45 has been mentioned) 

[85sqn]

12 hours ago, iang said:

 

I think I bought that one. It is of 119 (actually X/119 from 1841 Squadron, HMS Formidable).I s this the one you are thinking of? The tail code is not visible (otherwise it would have probably gone for an even more ludicrous sum), but "R" is clearly visible under the Corsair as it is being pushed over the side. It has cowl marking the same as KD345/130A, with the cowl flaps painted in the lighter colour too.

 

Formidable was only marked with a deck ID letter "R" for Operations of Japan, so this aircraft is probably KD560 (from the Admiralty records). There are conflicting reports concerning it's fate, but it certainly flew on 9 and 10 August 1945 according to the 1842 Fair Flying Log. The pilot's name is under the canopy, but not completely readable. However, during Operation Iceberg, X/119 was the usual aircraft of Lt MacKinnon and this could be the pilot's name under the canopy .  Some sources suggest that during Operations of Japan, X/119 was Gray's usual mount, but Hampton Gray doesn't match what is written.

 

This is the only other Corsair that I've seen with markings similar to A/130. but I've not seen any documentation that would provide an explanation.

 

I hate to say it but I think I have probably been bidding against you on Corsair photos!

 

So here is part of a photo in my collection:

 

 

 

I'd definitely go for a yellow cowling.

 

[iang]

I now think there are two (possibly related) things going on here.

1. Yellow cowl. Having checked my copies of the Admiralty documents relating to final operations off Japan, KD560 (X/119) was hit by flak on 10 August 1945 and subsequently ditched on return. So this provides a definite date for my photo of X/119 in its final configuration. I also have a distant photo of several Formidable corsairs taken immediately post war and looking again at this photo, at least 3 show the same light cowl (too distant to be able to read the fleet numbers), but many don't show a light cowl.  Formidable lost a number of Corsairs in the final few days of the war, so it may be that the light coloured cowl - let's say it was yellow in this case - was a tactical marking associated with the final operations off Japan and only those participating were so marked. This raises the intriguing possibility that Gray's corsair KD658 lost on 9th August was also marked with a yellow cowl. The final pages of the 1841 Squadron diary are missing (the compiler S/Lt Maitland was shot-down), so any tactical marking instruction for the last few days of the war is unrecorded. It looks as it KD345: 130/A has the same cowl markings as Formidable corsairs. Did this corsair have unrecorded late war service with 1841/2 Squadron before joining 1850 squadron, or did Vengeance interpret the (as yet undiscovered) Admiralty tactical marking instructions differently from other elements of TF111?

 

2. Light coloured  cowl band (yellow,  Sky, Medium Grey or pale blue). 1851 Squadron were still in Australia until August 13 1945, and were at sea on Venerable when Japan surrendered as part of TF111. It seems that either the Venerable corsair photos show a different interpretation of the wartime tactical making, or the markings were associated with later instructions post-war.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by iang

[iang]

3 hours ago, 85sqn said:

I hate to say it but I think I have probably been bidding against you on Corsair photos!

 

So here is part of a photo in my collection:

 

 

 

I'd definitely go for a yellow cowling.

 

Yes, and not so obvious when taken on ortho film