IDF modern tank colour mix

[Steben]

Hi guys,

This is my current progress in mixing modern IDF colour with Revell mixes. Based on AK RC094, which is on itself developed with Michael Mass.
+/- 2 x 87 (RAL7006) + 1 x 86 (RAL7008).

[Kingsman]

On a Facebook IDF forum someone was trying to claim yesterday that Sinai Grey is in fact the same as German WW2 Dunkelgelb.  And in the real world.........

 

Question.  Why not just use the AK colour instead of trying to copy it?

[Steben]

9 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

On a Facebook IDF forum someone was trying to claim yesterday that Sinai Grey is in fact the same as German WW2 Dunkelgelb.  And in the real world.........

 

Question.  Why not just use the AK colour instead of trying to copy it?

I know that guy. It was me. Was talking about 70ties colour. Wasnt claiming it is the same, but the same shades. That it is close, especially to late ww2 dunkelgelb. The same way it changes colour with different light. There was no one and only dunkelgelb either, so it can never be the same exactly. Have you seen the pictures?

The way colours shift with light angle etc..... is the most important factor in choosing mixes. Not one match.

If you look at pictures at Latrun the vehicles have the same behaviour with yellowish sand in sunlight to greengrey in shade and slightly pinkish in between.

 

My conclusion is that a well choosen dunkelgelb variant might work as base coat for IDF vehicles.

Last but not least: I copy colours because model paints are useless in real restoration and quite so in paint references. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Steben

[Kingsman]

Well that's certainly interesting thinking.  I'm not sure I want to be bothered about scale weather conditions in choosing my model colour.  But at least I can always say it's being seen in the wrong weather if anyone challenges it........☁️🌥️🌤️

 

 

[Kingsman]

FYI this is the Tiran 4 at Bovington.  It is indoors under flourescent lighting with no natural light, although the doors at the front of the shed might have been open that day: I don't recall.  It came to the UK in 1972 IIRC and AFAIK has not been touched paint-wise.  Syrian 3-colour camo and Russian factory green are evident under the Sinai Grey.  BTW both pictures were taken at the same time with the same camera, noting the colour shift. The lower one was taken to the left of the upper one, showing the worn paint on that side of the turret between the 2 lower brackets.

 

 

[Kingsman]

I think you've helped to persuade me to clear out of the remaining unstarted IDF kits in my stash as it seems to be turning into another genre with constant arguments about the subtlety of colour.  I was looking for clear-out candidates anyway but when we're starting to conflate Sinai Grey (but which one?) with Dunkelgelb, itself an already hotly-debated colour, and worry about scale weather conditions then it seems like time to call it a day.  But I do have several as-yet-unpainted Sherman conversions to worry about.

[Steben]

Most colours are hotly debated. And no doubt some commercial interests are partially behind it as well.
Creme de la creme must be RLM 83 which is not even settled yet as a blue or green. Did it even exit? 😄
It reminds me of a recent post about tamiya base colours. Olive Drab, dark (panzer) grey and dark yellow were suggested as a "base".
I mean, those are the summary of most debated colours of all times. All while it is a good base trio.

Frankly, OD and dark grey are a non discussion imho. They are documented, there is proof, there are colour cards. This does not mean there was no variation, yet less than is "wanted".
Dark yellow - alas - is just as much documented .... to have had official variations... This means this simply adds to the modellers' freedom. Although a very greyish dy on a Kursk model won't be really a great choice... You know what I mean.

Fact is in modelling the rules are not stringent. In restoration it is less agreeable. slightly shifts in colour choice (if done like in modelling) makes a huge difference in real life. And then you start seeing just as much variation in OD on conventions or festivities as there are and were in DY. Before you know it the complete doctrine of "German attrition and medieval late war mobster rule" when talking about paint simply infects the complete scene. You simple NEED red primer or unpainted parts somewhere or you are not with the incrowd. It is utter rubbish. I am sad about this. Especially if thinking of allied practice becomes the same.
And restorations simply can't blame wear or battlefield dust if most tanks are simply not shown that way. The variation in wheels and spare parts from other vehicles was just as much if not more present but somehow this fits less in the minds. Paint was a disaster wasn't it and therefor we don't need the effort. And now a pint. It is an exaggeration but a good one 😄.

Summary: no one should let colour debate interfere with modelling activities. Technical discussions did not stop the scene either.
On the contrary: My interests lie completely in reducing the base definitions of those debateable colours. Modellers do the interpretations, dioramas and scenes. Suppliers should not.
You see, I am infected with the colour disease but it goes hand in hand with a struggle against those that used colour to differentiate more instead of giving answers.

Tiran pictures: GRRRREAT! The comparison of the Syrian yellow beneath the Sinai Grey is the stuff I aim at.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Steben

[Kingsman]

Well I look at it this way.  There are many IDF Sinai Grey paints out there from several manufacturers across the 3 different colour periods.  I'm talking acrylics rather than enamels and lacquers.  They can't possibly all be so wrong that home mixing is better.  I would very much like a reasoned opinion on which brand best represents each period.  I don't want to be faffing with a bit of X, some Y, a splash of Z, a drop of W and then worry whether it is a cloudy day on the Golan or sunshine in Sinai.  More like a Potions lesson at Hogwarts..........

 

I'm a fan of accuracy and correct detail, but the physical aspects are generally more certain, obvious, measurable etc.  Colour is far more difficult, variable, emotive and open to debate.

 

While we have real vehicles in the current shade to compare, reliable comparators for the older shades are less common.  Vehicles in preservation are either repainted - and not necessarily in the correct paint - or in poor weathered unrestored condition.  None of the vehicles at Latrun are original paint and are kept outdoors without maintenance and are therefore unreliable comparators.  The Bovington Tiran is, as far as I can determine, still in the original paint it arrived in back in 1972.  The layering certainly suggests this: repainting would probably look better and the top layer does not look thick enough for subsequent repaints.  I've seen many overpainted preserved tanks and this doesn't look like one.  Any original paint on small items like the motorcyle tank you mentioned in another post has potentially now had decades of environmental exposure.

 

Using any on-line image or printed image in a book as a colour comparator is entirely unreliable for many reasons.  Drawn artwork even more so.  Obtaining colour swatches online is likewise unreliable as no two against the same colour standard seem to agree.  Only an authorised physical RAL (etc) colour deck can be taken as authoritative.  Even so, modern "replica"  paints against the same colour standard from different brands do vary noticeably.  When we buy domestic paint we are advised to pick the same batch, and when we have it custom-mixed we are advised to have enough made so that we do not need more.  Repeatability.  And this is with modern ingredients and production technology.

 

So it seems likely that vintage colours also varied, although probably not dramatically.  The older the vintage the greater the likelihood of variations.  Which of course poses us a problem when we look for certainty and absolutes.  Which circles me back to one of the model paint manufacturers surely having something that is an acceptable match for the Sinai Greys.

 

Anyway, with just 1 exception all my unbuilt IDF stuff has gone on the growing eBay stash clearout pile.  I had fallen out of love with most of it anyway after years of staring at some of it and realising I'd never get round to it.

[Steben]

Yes, correct you are.

RAL colour decks are my mainstay for all the reasons you mention. Whenever I start mixing, I use RAL cards and as much of Revell paints with a RAL reference. In later stages I obtain automotive mixed RAL to check for variation.
I might add BS and FS colour decks are fine as well. Especially FS colours circulate when talking references to military (IDF) colours. I'm keen on acquiring information whether FS colours were indeed official or not.

I still like to obtain German RAL F9 colour cards. They feature a huge load of authorised spec "sandy colours" which might be useful.

Just as Mike's swatches are accepted references, there is nothing you can do more than defining references. I remember very well chats about Khaki Green 3. With loads of references looked at scanned etc ..... There is a small spectrum of the colour with more brownish / greyish variants found on helmets while vehicles seem to be a batch less so. These are not spectacular differences and Mike's colour is an acceptable average. Most military colours simply are olive drab with a hint more yellow, green or red.

At least with the latest AK Real IDF colours we have three colours of which we know they are matched to IDF vehicles. We do not know whether these are possible match to "a colour swatch" hidden in the IDF archives, but we know they at least are matched.
A give away is the rather high chroma and darkness compared to many paints. This suggests no action whatsoever to implement scale effect. But this means modellers will need to add their bag of tricks if wanted to make shade and highlights.
On top of this, I've spoken to veterans. This summarises to a story which confirms Mass' work with 3 periods (just a tad more yellowish SG, dull SG and modern colour which is technically another olive drab but very browngreyish)....
I've heard stories on variations, age and dust effect in picture etc .... But some available colours seem invented or at least based on distorted pictures. Especially Lebanon 1982. Short story: all I hear is same variation on 70ties sinai grey and errors of photography. With the first merkava's being no exception.