Heinkel He111H-8 Armament

[fishplanebeer]

Having given up on finding the Hasegawa boxing of this variant I'm now preparing to scratch build the balloon defender and using the Hasegawa/Revell H-6 as the basis for the model, however I have a couple of questions before I get going please.

 

The H-8 was basically a modified H-5 (or H-3) so is the H-6 the correct start point given that based upon the crash site photos the example I'm building definitely had the later exhaust manifold typical of the P variants and the H-6, which would seem to rule out using the H-2/3/4 presumably?

 

Also the aircraft had 4 crew members so I'm wondering which machine gun positions it would have had as I thought the addition of the fuselage beam guns required an additional crew member to operate them?

 

Any other finer details anyone may have about the H-8 would also be very welcome such as the likely bomb load (internal and/or external), roles of each crew member etc...

 

Regards

Colin.

[G.R.Morrison]

Your subject was Oblt. Johannes Speck von Sternberg's machine.  He was the Staffelkapitän of the 9./KG 55.  The crew included Beobachter (observer) Fw. Fritz Muhn, Bordfunker (radio operator) Gefr. Rudolf Budde, and Bordmechaniker (flight engineer) Fw. Siegfried Rühle.  Only Budde survived to become a p.o.w.

 

The conversions of these He 111H-5s were in the WNr.3867 - 4011 range.  I have records for a 'baker's dozen' of these in the III/KG 4, I & II/KG 27, I/KG 53, II/KG 55.  The first known loss was while still in the test stage, 11.April 1941 with Luftzeugamt Sagan-Küper, the last with the 3./KG 27 on 1.Oct. 1941.  Most were lost in June and July 1941.

 

If using an H-6 kit as your base, you'll need different props and spinners.  The H-5 was using the VDM metal prop blades, which were thinner than the broad wooden blades (VS11) of the H-6 and later.  The spinners of the H-5 were more cone-like.

 

The ordnance was restricted to the internal bomb bay, with up to eight SC250s carried (vertically), depending on the distance to the target area.

 

Good luck with your project, GRM

[bil]

There's an old RS models conversion for the He111H-8 (7241), inaccurately based on the Italeri He111H-6, no doubt long oop.

 

I've sent you a dm.

[tempestfan]

GRM's details made me curious - I assume you know this, respectively the pic(s) included? Regrettably most of it behind a paywall... 

An aspect that may have to be considered is whether the plane in question had the MG FF-capable A-Stand or not, if there are pics of the nose.

[AndyL]

I had this image from the photo albums of the late Air Commodore Ernest 'Bertie' Wootten, and it shows one of the Heinkels you're interested in. I can't remember the ID of this particular aircraft, but it was lost in Dorset ( I think ) when the pilot accidentally flew it into a gentle rising slope when crossing the coast. Hope it's of interest.

 

[Graham Boak]

The H-8 was modified up to H-6 standard using the later engines including the later propellers.  The question remains as to whether the armament was also upgraded., either the ventral gondola or the additional side guns  In view of the almost total lack of vision at night from the side positions, they would be totally valueless even if fitted, so suspect that they were not.  With only 4 crew they would not have been manned, so I i suspect that they would not have been carried on this mission.

 

This conversion is no longer shown on the RS website.

 

 

[fishplanebeer]

Many thanks for all the responses which are adding to my knowledge of this particular beast and clarifying some of the details around the engines/props and armament.

 

I'd assumed the beam guns wouldn't be there as the crew was made up of only 4 but wanted to be sure. I have what I think are all the known pics of this particular crash site which show the nose section completely destroyed but I'm assuming it would have just carried a single machine gun in the dorsal gun position and one in the ventral gondola as there would be little point in having the additional forward facing gun position there as well (so in effect the same gondola arrangement as the P2 and H2). The nose gun position appears to have been plated over as again there would have been little point in having it given the protruding balloon fender.

 

The Kagero book on the He111 sadly doesn't have any plans as such for the H8 showing how the main central supporting strut is connected to the fuselage so this will have to involve some guess work but it does suggest that the H8 carried two machine guns which now makes sense.

 

There seems to be some debate re' the engines and props fitted but I'm assuming that they were as per the H6 as this will make the conversion a wee bit easier once I can locate a Revell/Hasegawa example at a sensible price - for some reason they are currently tricky to find at the moment.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

[G.R.Morrison]

AndyL,

 

Your photo shows WNr.3944 ("1G+ZM") of the 4./KG 27, lost 22.May 1941.  Crew: Oblt. Friedrich Bartels (observer), Ofw. Heinz Hahn, (pilot), Ofw. Heinrich Grimmel (radio operator, killed in the crash),  Ofw. Hans Funk and Gefr. Konrad Köhler (gunner).

 

GRM

[Graham Boak]

The "problem" with the gondola is that there are three possibilities.  There was no forward gun position there at least up to the Romanian H-3s.  However there are several photos captioned as H-3s which do show a forward gun with transparency, which may or may not be captioning errors.  Certainly the H-5 will have had this gun.  The H-6 however had an armoured position with what appears to be a heavier structure.  So what would the H-8 have had?  I'm inclined to agree that it makes sense to have reverted to/retained the original metal, but they could have simply retained the earlier gun position or been fully upgraded.  Sadly such arguing from mere logic does not always match what actually happened, either because of some missing factor or just Murphy.  I think an H-6 kit will always come with the last option: I suspect that the Hasegawa kits will come with a full set of transparencies but can't confirm just at the moment.  Again, Falcon should be your friend. 

 

If Kagero only says two guns that's a good hint but hardly definitive.

[bil]

According to "Luftwaffe Crash Archive 8", He111H-8 Wn.3971, G1+EM crashed at Fulford Hall, Shirley at 00.35 on 11/5/41 and the following was noted:

 

six MG15, one MG17 from the tail and one 20mm free mounted cannon;

 

four 250kg and one 1000kg bombs carried, which exploded in the vicinity of the crash;

 

the leading edge edge of the wings was protected by a balloon cable deflector rail which stretched from wingtip to wingtip.

 

Bearing in mind that the crash report detailed accurately what was found, it suggests that the H-8 was carrying what amounted to a full bomb load and armament.  The 20mm cannon might have been mounted in the front of the gondola as photos of other H-8s show the nose mounting blocked off.

[bil]

Re. the report referenced above.  A crew of 5 were named as listed by G R Morrison above.

[fishplanebeer]

Just re-checked the photos from the crash site and it definitely had a tail mounted MG of some king which makes the Kagero information somewhat suspect but I still can't see how it could have had 6 additional MG15's as well given that this particular H8 only had 4 crew members and there would have been no MG's in the nose, so where would they have been situated I wonder?

 

It's possible it carried the beam guns (un-manned) and possibly 2 in the gondola making 5 in total including the dorsal gun but then where would the 20mm canon have been located? I know late production H6's had a 20mm canon in the gondola but this would have been in lieu of a machine gun so that would make 4 MG15's, the 20mm canon and the MG17 in the tail - all very confusing.

 

Regards

Colin.

[brewerjerry]

hi

    photo in link that shows a 20mm in gondola 

 

 

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/germany/aircrafts-2/heinkel_he111/he111h-balloon-cable-cutter/

 

 

cheers

   jerry 

Edited April 30, 2021 by brewerjerry

[bil]

Re. My last post.

 

Delete "5", insert "4".

[Graham Boak]

Given the weight and drag of the boom, it would seem more sensible to have stripped the aircraft of excess weight which would certainly include all these weapons of minimal value at night (or at all, in the case of the tail "stinger").  Clearly mere logic is a weak reed.  

[bil]

"Given the weight and drag of the boom"........ not to mention the counter-balancing weight carried in the rear fuselage.

[fishplanebeer]

Photos of the crashed aircraft clearly shows the 'stinger' tail gun in place so I'm inclined to go with just this, the dorsal gun and perhaps two in the gondola for the rest of the armament,  and no external PVC bomb racks as reports suggest the bomb load was internal. My understanding is that when these racks were fitted they went over the normal bomb bay doors so preventing it from being used but not 100% sure about this.

 

Regards

Colin.

[fishplanebeer]

Another re-think as the photo from Jerry shows a H-8 with early style prop blades, no blanking plate over the nose gun position and external bomb racks fitted so back to the drawing board again!

 

I'm almost thinking that the mods made to create the H-8 did not follow a strict spec and that as such there was variation amongst the 30 or so aircraft that were converted, as this photo would suggest and also when looking at the other photos and artwork I've seen to date. As such I may have some artistic license when it comes to the final details of the model.

 

Regards

Colin.

 

Ps. Amazon just e-mailed me to say they have the Hasegawa H-8 available, for £86!!!!