Thunderbolt invasion strips question

[The Modeling Python]

I would like you guys to pick which kind of invasion stripes should be on my up coming build of Tamiya's P-47B "Razorback" Thunderbolt.

Edited April 27, 2021 by The Modeling Python

[Black Knight]

The correct answer depends on when, what period in 1944, you want to depict your P-47

[dnl42]

Look for a photo of the subject. Then you can pick whatever the primary evidence shows.

[72modeler]

@The Modeling Python,

 

Are you sure you mean P-47B? I don't think any P-47B's went overseas or were used in combat. The P-47C was the first true combat capable version, but I very much doubt that any were still operational at the time of the Normandy invasion to have had  invasion stripes applied. . If you have the serial of the Thunderbolt you want to model, one of us can look it up and tell you which variant and production block it is.Camouflaged P-47C's and early D' did have white cowl rings and white stripes on the  horizontal stabilizers, and fin/rudder for recognition purposes to avoid being confused with Fw-190's, but those are not the same as invasion stripes. At a certain date after the June 6th invasion, the 8th AF had the invasion stripes removed/overpainted from the upper wings and fuselage, and even later, removed/overpainted them from the wings entirely, leaving just the stripes on the lower fuselage. If you need the dates for these changes, I can look them up- I don't recall them off the top of my head. @Tbolt probably has the information memorized! 

Mike

Edited April 27, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected text

[Tbolt]

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

@The Modeling Python,

 

Are you sure you mean P-47B? I don't think any P-47B's went overseas or were used in combat. The P-47C was the first true combat capable version, but I very much doubt that any were still operational at the time of the Normandy invasion to have had  invasion stripes applied. . If you have the serial of the Thunderbolt you want to model, one of us can look it up and tell you which variant and production block it is.Camouflaged P-47C's and early D' did have white cowl rings and white stripes on the wings, horizontal stabilizers, and fin/rudder for recognition purposes to avoid being confused with Fw-190's, but those are not the same as invasion stripes. At a certain date after the June 6th invasion, the 8th AF had the invasion stripes removed/overpainted from the upper wings and fuselage, and even later, removed/overpainted them from the wings entirely, leaving just the stripes on the lower fuselage. If you need the dates for these changes, I can look them up- I don't recall them off the top of my head. @Tbolt probably has the information memorized! 

Mike

 

Agreed. P-47B's never left the US. 4th July was when the upper surface stripes were removed and 25th August for removal of the under wing strips. The end of '44 was when all stripes were removed. 

 

@The Modeling Python Like the others say you need to look for or ask about what airframe you are doing, but if you are doing a what if P-47B, then just go with the strips for the time frame you are modelling.

 

 

[VolkerR.]

If I understand the thread opener correctly he wants us to vote for the most attractice invasion stripe scheme on an P-47 and he will thereafter choose the appropriate individual aircraft.

[Tbolt]

21 hours ago, VolkerR. said:

If I understand the thread opener correctly he wants us to vote for the most attractice invasion stripe scheme on an P-47 and he will thereafter choose the appropriate individual aircraft.

 

In that case it's was worded very badly, he's used "should they be...". Anyway I've voted now.

[72modeler]

@The Modeling Python,

 

This link should be useful for any P-47 you decide to model.

Mike

 

http://kativ.eu/files/IvoHobby/Airplanes/1-48/P47D NoseArt - 1-48 Academy - за първи път опитвам да направя качествен модел Окт 2008/2008-11 00 книги и снимки/Camouflage & Markings 15 - P47 USAAF ETO-MTO 1942-45.pdf

[The Modeling Python]

@72modelerWhere do you get your reference material? I meant a P-47D variation of the thunderbolt, that was just a mistake in me typing. My thunderbolt is a late war 355fs 354fg "WR" Razorback.

[Tbolt]

5 hours ago, The Modeling Python said:

@72modelerWhere do you get your reference material? I meant a P-47D variation of the thunderbolt, that was just a mistake in me typing. My thunderbolt is a late war 355fs 354fg "WR" Razorback.

 

I think you mean 354th FS, 355th FG. Were they still flying P-47's after D-Day?

[72modeler]

11 hours ago, The Modeling Python said:

Where do you get your reference material? 

Well, let's see; I've been collecting aircraft/modeling references for over 50 years- you should see the library/archives upstairs in my home! I must have more than a dozen Thunderbolt books, plus several articles from modeling/aviation magazines. Aircraft in Profile, Ducimus Camouflage and Markings series, Koku-Fan FAOW, Maru Mechanic, AJ Press, Kagero, Mushroom Model Publications,  Squadron/Signal Publications. Zempke's Wolfpack,, Jabos by Wiliam Wolf, SAM, Air Classics, Air Combat, Detail in Scale, as well as numerous websites bookmarked from the internet, to name some but not all- that and the pearls of wisdom I have gleaned from @Tbolt and others here on BM. (There is a ton of stuff out there on the internet- many times it's all in how you word the search as to what you can find.) I try to share information I find on aviation history/modeling here on BM to pay back all of the modelers who have helped me over the years. I also try to remember to name the source of the information I post here, especially if asked, so others will not just assume I'm blowing it out of my exhaust! The research is many times more fun and rewarding than the actual build. There are numerous regular contributors/posters on this website who know far more than I thought I knew on most subjects, and are willing  to share with the rest of us, so take advantage of their expertise-  as much as I think I know, there are some incredibly nice modelers here on BM who not only know more, but freely share their knowledge. It's trite, but we truly are a band of brothers! Good luck on your Thunderbolt build!

Mike

[Tbolt]

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

Well, let's see; I've been collecting aircraft/modeling references for over 50 years- you should see the library/archives upstairs in my home! I must have more than a dozen Thunderbolt books, plus several articles from modeling/aviation magazines. Aircraft in Profile, Ducimus Camouflage and Markings series, Koku-Fan FAOW, Maru Mechanic, AJ Press, Kagero, Mushroom Model Publications,  Squadron/Signal Publications. Zempke's Wolfpack,, Jabos by Wiliam Wolf, SAM, Air Classics, Air Combat, Detail in Scale, as well as numerous websites bookmarked from the internet, to name some but not all- that and the pearls of wisdom I have gleaned from @Tbolt and others here on BM. (There is a ton of stuff out there on the internet- many times it's all in how you word the search as to what you can find.) I try to share information I find on aviation history/modeling here on BM to pay back all of the modelers who have helped me over the years. I also try to remember to name the source of the information I post here, especially if asked, so others will not just assume I'm blowing it out of my exhaust! The research is many times more fun and rewarding than the actual build. There are numerous regular contributors/posters on this website who know far more than I thought I knew on most subjects, and are willing  to share with the rest of us, so take advantage of their expertise-  as much as I think I know, there are some incredibly nice modelers here on BM who not only know more, but freely share their knowledge. It's trite, but we truly are a band of brothers! Good luck on your Thunderbolt build!

Mike

 

I not sure I've got much wisdom though 🤪, I've got quite a few P-47 references though and try and learn from the P-47 experts. The research can be fun, but often slows down the build which isn't helping my stash level 😉

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

13 hours ago, The Modeling Python said:

I meant a P-47D variation of the thunderbolt, that was just a mistake in me typing. My thunderbolt is a late war 355fs 354fg "WR" Razorback.

 

8 hours ago, Tbolt said:

I think you mean 354th FS, 355th FG. Were they still flying P-47's after D-Day?

354th FG (P-51, 353, 355, 356 sqn), 9th AF, arrived in Europe with P-51, Pioneer Mustang, switched to P-47 22 November 1944 until 15 February 1945, then back to P-51, there was a P-51 shortage for a time.

 

355th FG (P-47, 354, 357, 358 sqn), 8th AF, arrived in Europe with P-47, switched to P-51 February/March 1944, WR being the code letters for the 354th sqn.

 

The P-47D-25 with cut down rear fuselage probably came into production in April 1944

[Tbolt]

15 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

 

354th FG (P-51, 353, 355, 356 sqn), 9th AF, arrived in Europe with P-51, Pioneer Mustang, switched to P-47 22 November 1944 until 15 February 1945, then back to P-51, there was a P-51 shortage for a time.

 

355th FG (P-47, 354, 357, 358 sqn), 8th AF, arrived in Europe with P-47, switched to P-51 February/March 1944, WR being the code letters for the 354th sqn.

 

The P-47D-25 with cut down rear fuselage probably came into production in April 1944

 

I thought I read that the 355th FG converted to P-51's in April 1944, but was just wondering if they had any P-47's left otherwise the original question doesn't make sense. Yes the first D-25 appeared in England in May 1944 so I guess the 355th only ever had Razorbacks.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

US Archives Record Group 18, Entry 7, Box 5673, 355th Fighter Group, year of 1944, aircraft strength as of,

 

1 March, P-47 63 out of 103 P-47 on station fully operational, considered a P-47 group.
2 March, P-47 62 out of 66, P-51 0 out of 47.
3 March, P-47 57 out of 66, P-51 12 out of 57, considered a P-51 group, the official criteria for the change is "after receiving the 36th P-51 aircraft" also all aircraft shown in groups converting to P-51 are presently used on operations.

4 March, P-47 40 out of 66, P-51 49 out of 78
5 March, P-47 35 out of 66, P-51 23 out of 68
6 March, P-47 40 out of 66, P-51 53 out of 52
7 March, P-47 22 out of 46, P-51 38 out of 68
8 March, P-47 24 out of 45, P-51 42 out of 67
9 March, P-47 13 out of 34, P-51 49 out of 67
10 March, P-47 9 out of 26, P-51 49 out of 66
11 March, P-47 3 out of 12, P-51 51 out of 64
12 March, P-47 3 out of 12, P-51 50 out of 64
13 March, P-47 3 out of 9, P-51 52 out of 65
14 March, P-47 5 out of 9, P-51 0 out of 65 (In fact no 8th Air Force P-51 considered fully operational on this date.)
15 March, P-47 0 out of 4, P-51 54 out of 66
16 March, P-47 1 out of 5, P-51 51 out of 64
17 March, P-47 1 out of 5, P-51 43 out of 64
18 March, P-47 1 out of 4, P-51 49 out of 64
19 March, P-47 1 out of 4, P-51 53 out of 64
20 March, P-47 1 out of 3, P-51 54 out of 69
21 March, P-47 0 out of 3, P-51 55 out of 69
22 March, P-47 0 out of 3, P-51 54 out of 71, Final entry for P-47.

 

Using Mighty Eighth War Diary the last 355th FG all P-47 mission was on 6 March, the only mixed P-47/51 mission was on 8 March, the first all P-51 mission on 10 March.

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

US Archives Record Group 18, Entry 7, Box 5673, 355th Fighter Group, year of 1944, aircraft strength as of,

 

1 March, P-47 63 out of 103 P-47 on station fully operational, considered a P-47 group.
2 March, P-47 62 out of 66, P-51 0 out of 47.
3 March, P-47 57 out of 66, P-51 12 out of 57, considered a P-51 group, the official criteria for the change is "after receiving the 36th P-51 aircraft" also all aircraft shown in groups converting to P-51 are presently used on operations.

4 March, P-47 40 out of 66, P-51 49 out of 78
5 March, P-47 35 out of 66, P-51 23 out of 68
6 March, P-47 40 out of 66, P-51 53 out of 52
7 March, P-47 22 out of 46, P-51 38 out of 68
8 March, P-47 24 out of 45, P-51 42 out of 67
9 March, P-47 13 out of 34, P-51 49 out of 67
10 March, P-47 9 out of 26, P-51 49 out of 66
11 March, P-47 3 out of 12, P-51 51 out of 64
12 March, P-47 3 out of 12, P-51 50 out of 64
13 March, P-47 3 out of 9, P-51 52 out of 65
14 March, P-47 5 out of 9, P-51 0 out of 65 (In fact no 8th Air Force P-51 considered fully operational on this date.)
15 March, P-47 0 out of 4, P-51 54 out of 66
16 March, P-47 1 out of 5, P-51 51 out of 64
17 March, P-47 1 out of 5, P-51 43 out of 64
18 March, P-47 1 out of 4, P-51 49 out of 64
19 March, P-47 1 out of 4, P-51 53 out of 64
20 March, P-47 1 out of 3, P-51 54 out of 69
21 March, P-47 0 out of 3, P-51 55 out of 69
22 March, P-47 0 out of 3, P-51 54 out of 71, Final entry for P-47.

 

Using Mighty Eighth War Diary the last 355th FG all P-47 mission was on 6 March, the only mixed P-47/51 mission was on 8 March, the first all P-51 mission on 10 March.

 

 

Great thanks for that. Is there an easy way to access this information, as when I go on the National Archives website I'm struggling to find this info?

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

55 minutes ago, Tbolt said:

Is there an easy way to access this information, as when I go on the National Archives website I'm struggling to find this info?

Given your address is this the US or UK national archives?  In both cases things like the daily and even weekly strength report files are rarely digitised, they are rather specialist and tend to be large, someone needs to pay for the copy.

 

The US archives have significantly less indexing than the UK ones.  The US policy is to take the incoming material and put it into boxes, very often with minimal indexing of the individual documents.

 

The UK archives files AIR 22/324, 325 and 326 are weekly USAAF strength reports from August 1942 to June 1946.  They list each unit, location, personnel strength, and if a combat unit, aircraft strength. Comes to around 1,000 pages.  The relevant entries for the 355th FG aircraft strength are

29 February 1944, 60 P-47, 3 P-51
6 March 1944, 66 P-47, 52 P-51
14 March 1944, 9 P-47, 65 P-51
21 March 1944, 3 P-47, 69 P-51

 

And a correction to the first strength report list, 6 March, P-47 40 out of 66, P-51 22 out of 52

[Tbolt]

37 minutes ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

Given your address is this the US or UK national archives?  In both cases things like the daily and even weekly strength report files are rarely digitised, they are rather specialist and tend to be large, someone needs to pay for the copy.

 

The US archives have significantly less indexing than the UK ones.  The US policy is to take the incoming material and put it into boxes, very often with minimal indexing of the individual documents.

 

The UK archives files AIR 22/324, 325 and 326 are weekly USAAF strength reports from August 1942 to June 1946.  They list each unit, location, personnel strength, and if a combat unit, aircraft strength. Comes to around 1,000 pages.  The relevant entries for the 355th FG aircraft strength are

29 February 1944, 60 P-47, 3 P-51
6 March 1944, 66 P-47, 52 P-51
14 March 1944, 9 P-47, 65 P-51
21 March 1944, 3 P-47, 69 P-51

 

And a correction to the first strength report list, 6 March, P-47 40 out of 66, P-51 22 out of 52

 

Thanks, I was looking at the US one, but I'll take a look at the UK one as well.