P-47D Cockpit Colors

[11bravo]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm finally ready to start my P-47D build.   Before I apply paint to that magnificent MDC cockpit, I just want to make sure I have my colors straight.   As I understand it, later block P-47D's had the cockpit painted overall Dark Dull Green (DDG).   While perusing the net, I came across a few pictures of the P-47D that is in the USAF Museum.   From what I've read, it doesn't appear that the this aircraft's cockpit was restored.   See below:

 

Thoughts on the accuracy of this 'pit?   Certainly the IP and black surfaces don't appear to be re-finished.    That being said, I've also come across (restored) cockpits that look like this:

 

 

Last - I found this picture of the cockpit of a P-47D that was fished out of a lake in Austria a few years back.   It was deep on the bottom, preserved in ice cold water.  According to some "experts", the green colors are are pretty much original:

From what I read, the grunge on the fixtures is nothing more than silt from the bottom of the lake.   Anyway, I'm seeing two different shades of green here.   

 

So - questions are:

 

Any chance that portions of the cockpit might be finished in something like green zinc primer like the color in the first two pics above?   

 

Thoughts on the color of that restored cockpit?  To me, it seems a bit too "Candy Apple Green-ish". 

 

Thoughts on the shades from that original P-47 cockpit fished from the lake?   I've got a tin of Colorcoates Dark Dull Green (these guys are highly respected for their accuracy) and it looks pretty darned close to the lower shade of green.   Would it be possible to have different shades in the cockpit or was the color applied uniformly?

 

Any and all info is much appreciated. 

 

John

[72modeler]

See if this link helps. I would go with dull dark green or interior green tinted to more or less match dull dark green as described by Dana Bell.

Mike

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.se/home/interior-colours-of-us-aircraft-1941-45-part-ii/

 

There is an unrestored P-47M that I have seen photos of, and the cockpit is finished  in dull dark green. The P-47D that was recovered from a lake in Austria and restored  had parts of the cockpit in dull dark green and what looked like interior green, but this might have been normal for sections/parts furnished by subcontractors and assembled by Republic's two assembly plants.

Edited April 27, 2021 by 72modeler
added link

[Bozothenutter]

I read somewhere (ww2aircraft.net?) 

That the dull dark green came about by an error in the mixing formula.

One if the factories followed it to the letter, creating dull dark green.

The paint order did call for a first coat of zinc chromate and a second coat of zc mixed with black. 

[Tbolt]

On 4/27/2021 at 1:48 AM, 11bravo said:

Hi Folks,

 

I'm finally ready to start my P-47D build.   Before I apply paint to that magnificent MDC cockpit, I just want to make sure I have my colors straight.   As I understand it, later block P-47D's had the cockpit painted overall Dark Dull Green (DDG).   While perusing the net, I came across a few pictures of the P-47D that is in the USAF Museum.   From what I've read, it doesn't appear that the this aircraft's cockpit was restored.   See below:

 

 

 

Thoughts on the accuracy of this 'pit?   Certainly the IP and black surfaces don't appear to be re-finished.    That being said, I've also come across (restored) cockpits that look like this:

 

 

 

Last - I found this picture of the cockpit of a P-47D that was fished out of a lake in Austria a few years back.   It was deep on the bottom, preserved in ice cold water.  According to some "experts", the green colors are are pretty much original:

 

From what I read, the grunge on the fixtures is nothing more than silt from the bottom of the lake.   Anyway, I'm seeing two different shades of green here.   

 

So - questions are:

 

Any chance that portions of the cockpit might be finished in something like green zinc primer like the color in the first two pics above?   

 

Thoughts on the color of that restored cockpit?  To me, it seems a bit too "Candy Apple Green-ish". 

 

Thoughts on the shades from that original P-47 cockpit fished from the lake?   I've got a tin of Colorcoates Dark Dull Green (these guys are highly respected for their accuracy) and it looks pretty darned close to the lower shade of green.   Would it be possible to have different shades in the cockpit or was the color applied uniformly?

 

Any and all info is much appreciated. 

 

John

 

Early P-47D cockpits were painted yellow zinc chromate then they later changed to tinted zinc chromate.

 

Reference DDG, even in the EMI ( see image below ) from August 1944 with a revised date of October 1945 on the finishing pages, it still quotes tinted zinc chromate as the cockpit colour and like @Bozothenutter says it could be it was a mistake of how much black to be added as to why a dark colour came about. Below is a clip from that EMI and you can see it tells them to use 1gal of ZC and 1gal of toluene substitute for the ZC and for the tinted ZC in the cockpit it list the same and also black, but it doesn't list how much black is to be used. Of course this is only based on the documents I've seen and there could have been other paper work like a T.O with other information on.

 

But this doesn't explain where this blue tinted DDG being used on P-47 cockpits came from, because adding black to ZC doesn't not give you that colour. The unrestored ( apparently )  D-30 cockpit pictures shown in the Detail & Scale book, from 44-32691 does seem to have a blue tint.  But there are so many unknowns here, was there a shortage of black at one point but DDG was available so that's what was used? 

 

 

 

As for Dottie Mae's cockpit ( I'm guess that were that last photo is from ) having different shades of green I think again that's just down interpretation of the instructions and the paint being mixed by different people without too much accuracy.

 

I'm building a P-47M at the moment and I'm going for DDG, but for a late D you could go either way. This D-28's armour plate looks quite dark - it looks like DDG and Sex Express looks similar.

 

 

  

44-32691's cockpit. Not a colour you can get from adding too much black to zinc chromate.

 

 

 

 

[steh2o]

Hello Tbolt, I doubt that early a/C s  had YZC  as cockpit colour, being that e&m say tinted zinc chromate. The few existing photographic evidence shows something similar to the pics shown above that is very slightly tinted zinc chromate. Unless you have documents saying otherwise, the cockpit was less- or more Tinted YZC until the first P-47D lots. 

[Tbolt]

15 minutes ago, steh2o said:

Hello Tbolt, I doubt that early a/C s  had YZC  as cockpit colour, being that e&m say tinted zinc chromate. The few existing photographic evidence shows something similar to the pics shown above that is very slightly tinted zinc chromate. Unless you have documents saying otherwise, the cockpit was less- or more Tinted YZC until the first P-47D lots. 

The 1943 EMI I have states zinc chromate not tinted. It changed in the later EMI to tinted zinc chromate.

 

 

Then there's the photo, please see this thread where I've posted some of them - 

 

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi Gents,

 

A bit of clarification here...

 

In AAF tech orders, whenever two coats of zinc chromate were specified the second coat was always to be tinted.  This allowed painters and inspectors to know how many coats had been applied.

 

Erection and Maintenance manuals were written for field use, though they were frequently akso used on production lines.  However, production lines really concentrated on the language of the contract, and even that could be ignored through negotiation between contractor and Wright Field.  That bluish color in Republic-built P-47s was simply a variation of Dull Dark Green (and there were several).

 

The Austrian recovery does show Interior Green and Dull Dark Green in the cockpit.  The interior Green was the second coat of primer, and the DDG was the finish coat applied to reduce cockpit reflections.  The Interior Green can only be seen in areas unlikely to reflect on the instruments or canopy but still needing corrosion control.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Tbolt]

12 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Hi Gents,

A bit of clarification here...

 

In AAF tech orders, whenever two coats of zinc chromate were specified the second coat was always to be tinted.  This allowed painters and inspectors to know how many coats had been applied.

 

Erection and Maintenance manuals were written for field use, though they were frequently akso used on production lines.  However, production lines really concentrated on the language of the contract, and even that could be ignored through negotiation between contractor and Wright Field.  That bluish color in Republic-built P-47s was simply a variation of Dull Dark Green (and there were several).

 

The Austrian recovery does show Interior Green and Dull Dark Green in the cockpit.  The interior Green was the second coat of primer, and the DDG was the finish coat applied to reduce cockpit reflections.  The Interior Green can only be seen in areas unlikely to reflect on the instruments or canopy but still needing corrosion control.Cockit

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

 

Thanks for the info Dana. I know that it was common to tint the second coat of ZC but I didn't know that it was always done. Some confusion has come from the wording change in the EMI. In 1943 it said "Cockpits shall be finished in two coats of zinc chromate primer" to this the 1945 version "Cockpits shall be finished in one coat of tinted primer to eliminate glare resulting from untinted primer". It reads like that maybe had this problem since the earlier EMI was written.

 

What is your take on this photos? I know it's hard to rely on color photos but we know the gear doors are ZC, so could this be a case of only the armour was ZC and the a lot of the rest of the cockpit was tinted?

 

 

Also in these photos, I know the colour might not be great, but could it be so far off color that it's tinted ZC? 

 

 

 

 

 

In some B&W pictures they gave me the impression this was untinted ZC as it looks very light, but could this be tinted ZC?

 

 

Sorry for the amount of questions, it's just nice to have a colour expert opinion on the matter as it get discussed here every few years.

[greatgonzo]

14 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

The interior Green was the second coat of primer, and the DDG was the finish coat applied to reduce cockpit reflections.

Three coats of three colours applied in P-47 cockpit? That's an eye opener. Now I must have another look at 49th FG D-4 found in New Guinea  jungle.  The cockpit is a colour mess there  and with this information maybe it will be possible to come to some conclusions. Is there an information if that could have been the way to finish P-47 cockpits of those early D-s in both production plants?

[steh2o]

Hello Tbolt, I know all of those photographs, but knowing the "two coats" of primer thing I deduce that the cockpit has a very slightly Tinted YZC hue, resulting in something similar to the first pictures shown above. When photographed with OD so close I think that overexposure tends to equalize the two hues.

So my opinion is: it is Tinted Zinc Chromate, but they used too little Black in it. It could even be YZC, but who really knows?

While at it, take a look at the color photographs of W. Mahurin's P-47D: while from the side view some "yellow" shows in the cockpit (the same hue as above for sure), the late style armor plate is definitely a darker green hue (but neither OD nor DDG for sure). I feel that Republic had some problem with interior colors...

[Tbolt]

2 hours ago, steh2o said:

Hello Tbolt, I know all of those photographs, but knowing the "two coats" of primer thing I deduce that the cockpit has a very slightly Tinted YZC hue, resulting in something similar to the first pictures shown above. When photographed with OD so close I think that overexposure tends to equalize the two hues.

So my opinion is: it is Tinted Zinc Chromate, but they used too little Black in it. It could even be YZC, but who really knows?

While at it, take a look at the color photographs of W. Mahurin's P-47D: while from the side view some "yellow" shows in the cockpit (the same hue as above for sure), the late style armor plate is definitely a darker green hue (but neither OD nor DDG for sure). I feel that Republic had some problem with interior colors...

 

But like I said that first picture I posted, the armour plate matches the gear door colour.

 

I know the photo you are talking about and I agree about the armour, but as for the ZC again it looks like untinted but hard to say. Like Dana says about Dottie Mae, it maybe not the whole cockpit got a second tinted coat.

 

On this photo you can see the edge of the armour plate and it look very light.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you know that it is believed that Curtiss used a tinted ZC on more of the P-47G than Republic, such as in the gear bays, but as far as I know Republic painted them with plain ZC as well as the gun and ammo bays.  But if you read the clip I posted from the 1943 EMI it states two coats for the wing interior parts and also the fuselage interior, but the clip below this from the 1945 EMI that's changed to only one coat, I'm guessing for weight saving and the time the aircraft were lasting. That's assuming the wing interior parts including the gear, gun and ammo bays, but these are not referenced separately, it's only wing, fuselage and cockpit.

 

So the question is did the Republic P-47's all get the two coats of ZC and like you say was the tinted one only lightly tinted making us think that most areas were plain ZC?

 

Of course this is just going from the EMI dated January 1943, but I would love to see the April 1942 one.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway to get a little back to DDG, these Razorbacks look like they had DDG in the cockpit.

 

 

 

 

So that clear that up, paint P-47 cockpits a combination of ZC and tinted ZC and add in some DDG at some point in the timeline 🤣

[steh2o]

Hello Tbolt I get your point, if the cockpit is TZC according to the EMI, even the gear wells and gun bays should...

Sincerly... I don't know

I spent some time on this argument when building my P-47C in 1/72, and I came to the conclusion that the cockpit could be TZC while the gear wells plain YZC doing something like this

 

In my copy of the above photograph I can more distinclty see a hue difference, but even here there seems to be something: all of the colors picked from the landing gear/gear well seem to have a more yellow hue, while the armor seems less (in particular the two rightmost squares come from areas taking the same light at the same orientation as the armor) yellow and more grey.

So again the answer is-  who knows? For sure the cockpit wasn't Interior Green or Dull Dark Green in the early a/cs... it was a kind of yellow or yellow-green. How much green is the  mistery.

[Tbolt]

11 minutes ago, steh2o said:

Hello Tbolt I get your point, if the cockpit is TZC according to the EMI, even the gear wells and gun bays should...

Sincerly... I don't know

I spent some time on this argument when building my P-47C in 1/72, and I came to the conclusion that the cockpit could be TZC while the gear wells plain YZC doing something like this

 

In my copy of the above photograph I can more distinclty see a hue difference, but even here there seems to be something: all of the colors picked from the landing gear/gear well seem to have a more yellow hue, while the armor seems less (in particular the two rightmost squares come from areas taking the same light at the same orientation as the armor) yellow and more grey.

So again the answer is-  who knows? For sure the cockpit wasn't Interior Green or Dull Dark Green in the early a/cs... it was a kind of yellow or yellow-green. How much green is the  mistery.

 

I also used a colour picker when trying to work it out for my D-5, couldn't find enough of a difference that I would of expected between the colours for inspection purposes. Of course trying to match and external weathered surface with an interior one is never going to be an exact science. But have a go on this one if you like.

 

[steh2o]

I have seen this in Warren Bodie's "Thunderbolt" IIRC

Difficult to say as before.... the light is coming down vertically so I would say the armor and the lowermost part of the wheel cover catch the almost the same illumination. The colour is similar but  I'd say the cockpit is again less yellow, more grey

[Tbolt]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:38 AM, steh2o said:

I have seen this in Warren Bodie's "Thunderbolt" IIRC

 

Difficult to say as before.... the light is coming down vertically so I would say the armor and the lowermost part of the wheel cover catch the almost the same illumination. The colour is similar but  I'd say the cockpit is again less yellow, more grey

 

Yes there is more yellow on the right gear door. I know tinted ZC varied but I would expect a tinted coat would have to be a more noticeable difference if you are bothering to tint it, but maybe under certain lightening conditions the difference is reduced in photos? This is the sort of difference I was expecting, but I would love to find some colour pictures like this from the P-47 production line.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve N]

A quick note about that P-47 at the USAF Museum.  The exterior was repainted and polished a few years ago, but it used to be a civilian-owned flying warbird before coming to the museum.  I'm sure the cockpit was repainted during a postwar restoration.

 

SN

[TheRealMrEd]

FWIW, here's a shot of a Tennessee Air Guard P-47D, wrecked not long after the war, showing the color of the front firewall, on the cockpit side.  Pretty sure it's original paint...

 

 

Ed

[Bozothenutter]

Forgot to add, the pics in the OP, are HDR as well, so not very good as a guide.

[Tbolt]

7 hours ago, TheRealMrEd said:

FWIW, here's a shot of a Tennessee Air Guard P-47D, wrecked not long after the war, showing the color of the front firewall, on the cockpit side.  Pretty sure it's original paint...

 

 

Ed

 

From that photo I wouldn't of thought it was DDG but I found this picture which appears to be of the same airframe and it looks like DDG. Do you happen to know what block number this aircraft was?

 

 

[Tbolt]

I was looking through the Dakota Territory Air Museum info on the D-23 they are restoring and it's got a good bit of info on cockpit colour in one of their updates. They are saying that ANA 612 was the specified colour in 1944, but what they found was a good match for FS34079.

 

https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/P-47_AugSept-2019.pdf

 

 

[Dana Bell]

3 hours ago, Tbolt said:

I was looking through the Dakota Territory Air Museum info on the D-23 they are restoring and it's got a good bit of info on cockpit colour in one of their updates. They are saying that ANA 612 was the specified colour in 1944, but what they found was a good match for FS34079.

 

https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/P-47_AugSept-2019.pdf

 

 

Hi Tbolt,

 

They're right that the first mention of Medium Green as an anti-glare color came in 1944, but that was in November of the year.  Very few wartime production lines had switched to the color by V-J Day (older stocks of DDG had to be used up first) - but they seem to have evidence that at least one of the Republic lines made the switch.  (News to me !)  I'll be surprised if any earlier production used the color.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Dana Bell]

On review, I think the folks at Minot did a great job matching the color, but I believe they misidentified what they found.  Since no razorbacks were built after October 1944, I'm pretty sure they matched Republic's version of Dull Dark Green.  "A rose by any other name..." they still did a beautiful job!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[greatgonzo]

Hello Dana!

I was hoping You may have addressed a question I presented few posts above.

Quote

Three coats of three colours applied in P-47 cockpit? (...)  Is there an information if that could have been the way to finish P-47 cockpits of those early D-s in both production plants?

 

It is off top, but I am very thankful for the  work You've made on Corsair. These two F4U books are excellent!

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi Gonzo,

 

I'm glad to help, though I admit there are still pieces of the story that I'd love to better understand.

 

Thanks also for the kind comments on the Corsair books.  Those are still the two most enjoyable projects I've ever worked on!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[72modeler]

The original cockpit paint sure looked like dull dark green; I'm no @Dana Bell but I also think the color on the preserved panel was Republic's mix for DDG, as IIRC fresh DDG/bronze green  had a slight bluish cast to it. It never ceases to amaze me how a painted panel or section of an airplane can  appear to be so many different colors due to lighting, camera, angle, filters, or underlying primer coat. Guessing this will be only the 2nd flyable razorback Jug when they get it finished?

Mike

 

Incredible to see the quality and attention to detail on so many restorations over the past ten years or so; what a labor of love, labor, and money!

 

@Dana Bell Thanks for sharing the link- I had forgotten all about their P-47 project; it's come a LONG way from when I first saw it on the website!

Edited April 30, 2021 by 72modeler
corrected spelling