Finemolds and Hasegawa 1/72 F-4E Phantom II - the Long Nose saga - Completed!

[Christer A]

Tagging along for the ride.

I'm trying to find the F4-EJ Kai 8 Sqn boxing, with the blue on blue camouflage but it  seems to be impossible to find somewhere?

 

While waiting for that to clear I'll settle for this, which will help a  LOT!

[Chrisj2003]

@Christer A there is profiteering going on but you can find that special on a well known auction site; shipping from Japan (may be last one worldwide).

 

Chris

 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124595466268?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

 

 

[baldwin8]

Your build(s) have peaked my interest @giemme my Finemolds EJ is in the paintshop. The assembly is a challenge to find perfection and waiting to see your results, it won't disappoint I know.

[rob85]

I’m disappointed you doing a double build, I always felt I could compete with you on quantity in they threads... now you’re delivering quality and quality I have no where to go 😂

 

this is great G, they will turn out awesome.

 

Rob

[giemme]

On 27/04/2021 at 14:26, Christer A said:

Tagging along for the ride.

I'm trying to find the F4-EJ Kai 8 Sqn boxing, with the blue on blue camouflage but it  seems to be impossible to find somewhere?

 

While waiting for that to clear I'll settle for this, which will help a  LOT!

Welcome on board, Christer A  As it has been said before, I think your best option is to back order it from HLJ and make use of their Private Warehouse.

 

On 27/04/2021 at 20:01, baldwin8 said:

Your build(s) have peaked my interest @giemme my Finemolds EJ is in the paintshop. The assembly is a challenge to find perfection and waiting to see your results, it won't disappoint I know.

Welcome to you too, @baldwin8  Have you got a WIP thread running about it?

 

On 27/04/2021 at 22:17, rob85 said:

I’m disappointed you doing a double build, I always felt I could compete with you on quantity in they threads... now you’re delivering quality and quality I have no where to go 😂

 

this is great G, they will turn out awesome.

 

Rob

 Thanks Rob, much appreciated. I promise this double build will remain an exception   

 

Ciao

[giemme]

Hi everybody; not much time for modelling during the week (and the WE), I had to do some 1:1 painting and refurbishing in a couple of rooms at home.

So, here's what's new: the first AM decal set arrived, it's from Hi-Decal and it sports four different Turkish aircraft:

Main decals on one sheet, and an additional one with (many) stencils.... No walkway decals, but I wasn't going to use them anyway

 

 

The bottom right is an RF-4E, so it's out of the game here. I think I'll do the bottom left; from what I gathered, the F-4E/TM upgrade made by Turkey on original F-4Es shouldn't have affected the Instrument Panels too much. so I think I'll use this decal set on the Hasegawa kit, and keep the PE IPs as they are.

More from the instructions:

 

There even is a load-out scheme for the four ACs

 

I'm still waiting for the Hellenic Air Force decal sheet - I won't start on the cockpits until I get that and decide which airframe to model.

So meanwhile I carried out some experiments; first off, I wanted to replicate the beautiful splitter plates detail of the FM kit, to upgrade the Hasegawa ones. One option was to try with my Curio, and here is the holes pattern I came up with:

 

What I did was to use the stippling function and the stippling tool on 0.5mm plastic card; I later refined the splitter plate shape, and I'm considering if I want to totally scratch build a replacement for the Hasegawa parts (tricky, because I'd need to reproduce the tapered section of the plates), or just use the hole patetrn area and blend it into the Hasegawa parts  - also tricky, because I'd need to sand down the corresponding area on the kit parts and keep it reasonably flat....

 

Another option was to try and cast a copy of the FM plates; while I was at it, I also tried to replicate the "hunch", again from the FM kit; I used the Oyumaru blocks for the mold and casting resin, and I was quite amazed to see that I could replicate even the finer kit details:

 

Hole pattern:

 

I did cast a copy of the refined Curio plates, too

 

Black tempera wash to show the details

 

 

 

The purpose of these test casting is to find the best painting sequence that will allow to retain the hole pattern detail; as I mentioned previously, this is very soft - albeit well defined - on the FM kit, and it would be a shame to make it disappear under layers of paint and varnish. So I proceeded as follows: on the FM copy, I applied a black tempera wash on one half of the hole pattern

 

On the Curio replicas, I applied the black wash only on one

 

I then primed them with my usual mix of Vallejo Grey Primer + Future, a very light coat

 

Some of the wash  still showing through, as you can see. 

On the FM part, I sprayed a thin coat of Tamiya Flat Black on the part I left without the wash. This was a possible black basing test, too

 

I then sprayed on all the parts a light (but not too light ) coat or two of Tamiya Neutral Grey, thinned with alcohol

 

On the FM clone, it looked like all the detail had gone, buried under paint. And the same on the other parts

 

although they did retain a sort of hint of it. Anyway, a gloss coat made it somewhat reappear

 

 

So I went over it with another black tempera wash

 

 

Not very effective, especially with the Curio parts. At this point I tried lightly sanding back some of the paint, to see if the holes would have retained the first wash, but that didn't prove to be useful. What actually proved to be useful was a black oil wash

 

The sanding back caused a strange effect on the Curio parts

 

it looks as if the holes pattern is protruding rather then being carved into the resin. I think I'll need more experimenting with that.

The FM copy, after a flat clear coat

 

Conclusions (provisional as they may be):

- I think it is safe to assume that, to preserve the detail on the FM parts, the less paint/wash/clear coats I put on before the final wash, the better

- I don't think the casting of the Curio built parts is going to be very effective; if I go down the scratch building route, I'd better stick to the parts as they come out of the cutter. I will anyway do more test painting with both cut and cast parts to see where I can get, because I have the feeling that the stippling produces a somewhat more defined detail.

 

That's it for the day, any thoughts and comments are highly appreciated

 

Ciao

Edited May 2, 2021 by giemme

[CedB]

Nice moulding Giorgio - hard to replicate that fine detail but I'm sure you'll get there!  

[bbudde]

As above G. Nice work. Try and error will fix it and do in the end, I guess.

Cheers

[Fritag]

7 hours ago, giemme said:

I had to do some 1:1 painting and refurbishing in a couple of rooms at home.

 

Two rooms in a weekend?  That’s the sort of home maintenance pace that gives the rest of us (well me anyway) a bad name G!

 

7 hours ago, giemme said:

I used the Oyumaru blocks for the mold and casting resin, and I was quite amazed to see that I could replicate even the finer kit details:

 

Those casts look superb Giorgio - Maybe you can get away without even priming just that small area; or the lightest of oversprays.

[corsaircorp]

Here we are !!

Well done Mr G !!

Multiple builds win again !! I'm in fir sure !!

Page 3 and resin madnesss already !! You really are a guy after my heart !!

Now, I take a seat at the bar... Turkish Phantoms are a pleasure for weathering !!

Note that Greek ones are pretty funny too !!

If I can find the pics, I'll share it.. 

Sincerely.

CC

[Nebbor]

10 hours ago, giemme said:

The bottom right is an RF-4E, so it's out of the game here. I think I'll do the bottom left; from what I gathered, the F-4E/TM upgrade made by Turkey on original F-4Es shouldn't have affected the Instrument Panels too much. so I think I'll use this decal set on the Hasegawa kit, and keep the PE IPs as they are.

 

 

 

 

I did affect the instrument panels quite a bit. As well as a different HUD. Just Google "f-4e terminator 2020 cockpit", you'll find a lot more. Cockpit differences are similar to the upgraded Israeli Kurnass 2000 and Greek upgraded AUP versions. Here's the rear pit of a ETM.

 

[giemme]

3 hours ago, CedB said:

Nice moulding Giorgio - hard to replicate that fine detail but I'm sure you'll get there!  

Thanks Ced, also for the vote of confidence

 

3 hours ago, bbudde said:

As above G. Nice work. Try and error will fix it and do in the end, I guess.

Cheers

Hopefully so, Ben - thank you!

 

3 hours ago, Fritag said:

 

Two rooms in a weekend?  That’s the sort of home maintenance pace that gives the rest of us (well me anyway) a bad name G!

 

 

Those casts look superb Giorgio - Maybe you can get away without even priming just that small area; or the lightest of oversprays.

Steve, I should say they are two tiny service rooms, let's say equivalent to a regular one (but then again, the painting only took half of Saturday, the rest was some refurbishing - and I had to cook lunch on Sunday too    )

 

As for the casts, I was pleasantly surprised at how good the Oyumaru performed. In addition to that , consider that the whole process from mould creation to resin de-moulding took less than one hour, including a few vacuum cycles to remove bubbles from the resin after having poured it into the moulds.

And yes, the idea is to go over the splitter plates with a very light primer coat, if any

 

50 minutes ago, corsaircorp said:

Here we are !!

Well done Mr G !!

Multiple builds win again !! I'm in fir sure !!

Page 3 and resin madnesss already !! You really are a guy after my heart !!

Now, I take a seat at the bar... Turkish Phantoms are a pleasure for weathering !!

Note that Greek ones are pretty funny too !!

If I can find the pics, I'll share it.. 

Sincerely.

CC

Glad to have you too along, CC  They should be both a fun game when it comes to weathering    

 

38 minutes ago, Nebbor said:

 

 

I did affect the instrument panels quite a bit. As well as a different HUD. Just Google "f-4e terminator 2020 cockpit", you'll find a lot more. Cockpit differences are similar to the upgraded Israeli Kurnass 2000 and Greek upgraded AUP versions. Here's the rear pit of a ETM.

 

 

Thanks Nebbor, but there seems to be a bit of a confusion about this subject. The ETM name refers to the Simsek ("lightning") upgrade. It's stated in the instruction sheet I posted above, although I think they have the date wrong, but you can found some notions about that on Internet, such as at this link: https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/f-rf-4e-phantom-ii-in-the-turkish-airforce-3914

 

I don't have it at hand now because it's on my home PC, but I also found a detailed article talking about the various Turkish Phantom upgrades - I'll post the reference as soon as I get home, because it does a better job in reconstructing the sequence of the modifications. Anyway, the article specifies that the Simsek update introduced, among other things, an update in avionics but with the use of a converter from digital to analogical, to preserve most of the IP gauges as they were, and to which the Turkish pilots were accustomed too.

 

The Terminator update followed later, and it was a major update compared to the ETM - it was anyway carried out on ETM machines, IIRC.

 

Ciao

 

[phantom61]

Conclusions (provisional as they may be):

- I think it is safe to assume that, to preserve the detail on the FM parts, the less paint/wash/clear coats I put on before the final wash, the better

- I don't think the casting of the Curio built parts is going to be very effective; if I go down the scratch building route, I'd better stick to the parts as they come out of the cutter. I will anyway do more test painting with both cut and cast parts to see where I can get, because I have the feeling that the stippling produces a somewhat more defined detail.

 

That's it for the day, any thoughts and comments are highly appreciated

 

... hello Giorgio ... every now and then I appear again ...😎

about these statements, some of my conclusions.
try to build as "clean as possible"
color on the primer but first, polish it as much as possible
use colors with dedicated thinner up to 60% ... for Tamiyas I use 30% of X20 and 30% of leveling tinner ... it is a surfactant and the finish is always shiny, therefore less Clear / flat coat.

I am attaching some photos of the Hobby Boss mil Mi-8 in 72 that I am completing ... there are about 10 coats of color and clear coats on the primer ... but the rivets I had made on the plastic are all clearly visible ...

 

I hope I was helpful... 

 

ciao Silvano

 

nude...

 

with primer

 

with color

 

with AK washes and oils ...
clear for the decals and clear satin finish

 

details...

 

 

 

as you can see...
the level of detail remained ...

[stevehnz]

Oh heck, page three & already there is more info than I can take in but struggle on I will, it's not that I've got AlsHammer or anything like that yet, I think.  What I do have are a couple of the FMs F4s & some Modelmaker decals for a Hellenic bird so it's kind of compulsory to sit in on this. 

Right, I'm off to see if there is any beer or peanuts left, might as well take something in.

Steve.

[giemme]

13 hours ago, giemme said:

Thanks Nebbor, but there seems to be a bit of a confusion about this subject. The ETM name refers to the Simsek ("lightning") upgrade. It's stated in the instruction sheet I posted above, although I think they have the date wrong, but you can found some notions about that on Internet, such as at this link: https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/f-rf-4e-phantom-ii-in-the-turkish-airforce-3914

 

I don't have it at hand now because it's on my home PC, but I also found a detailed article talking about the various Turkish Phantom upgrades - I'll post the reference as soon as I get home, because it does a better job in reconstructing the sequence of the modifications. Anyway, the article specifies that the Simsek update introduced, among other things, an update in avionics but with the use of a converter from digital to analogical, to preserve most of the IP gauges as they were, and to which the Turkish pilots were accustomed too.

 

The Terminator update followed later, and it was a major update compared to the ETM - it was anyway carried out on ETM machines, IIRC.

I have to rectify this. First off, there is this interesting link right here on BM that may shed some light

Secondly, the Terminator upgrade took place well before the Simsek upgrade, but on a different batch of airplanes. So the Terminator upgraded machines have very different IPs than the original F-4E, while it is my understanding that the F-4ETM was very similar in IP layout to the F-4E as it came out of the factory. Photographic evidence here would be highly appreciated, but I couldn't find any so far.

 

10 hours ago, phantom61 said:

as you can see...
the level of detail remained ...

Thanks Silvano, I will follow your advice  

10 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Oh heck, page three & already there is more info than I can take in but struggle on I will, it's not that I've got AlsHammer or anything like that yet, I think.  What I do have are a couple of the FMs F4s & some Modelmaker decals for a Hellenic bird so it's kind of compulsory to sit in on this. 

Right, I'm off to see if there is any beer or peanuts left, might as well take something in.

Steve.

Welcome on board Steve

 

Ciao

 

[corsaircorp]

7 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Oh heck, page three & already there is more info than I can take in but struggle on I will, it's not that I've got AlsHammer or anything like that yet, I think.  What I do have are a couple of the FMs F4s & some Modelmaker decals for a Hellenic bird so it's kind of compulsory to sit in on this. 

Right, I'm off to see if there is any beer or peanuts left, might as well take something in.

Steve.

I'm not resposible for the lack of beer...

I used to bring my own ammos....

In overkill mode...

Laughing CC

[corsaircorp]

On 4/27/2021 at 12:47 AM, The Spadgent said:

Fashionably late to the party but I’m in of course.  Fantastic start Giorgio. 🤩

 Two though? What are you thinking. 🙀🙀😲  
 

Johnny

 

 

Easy... One more CCized modeller...

[keefr22]

8 hours ago, phantom61 said:

the level of detail remained ...

 

That is some suberb modelling Silvano, really impressive work!

 

Keith

[Fritag]

8 hours ago, phantom61 said:

as you can see...
the level of detail remained ...

 

Truly awesome as always Silvano.  Giorgio and you - Italian flair and style.......

[The Spadgent]

Mind boggled. That orumaru stuff looks amazing. You just heat it up and push the part into it and you have a mould. That’s ace. What resin do you use? 

[billn53]

9 hours ago, phantom61 said:

... for Tamiyas I use 30% of X20 and 30% of leveling tinner ... it is a surfactant and the finish is always shiny, therefore less Clear / flat coat.

 

 

Thanks for that tip. I’ve never tried using leveling thinner with Tamiya paint... learn something new every day. 

[Nebbor]

13 hours ago, giemme said:

Secondly, the Terminator upgrade took place well before the Simsek upgrade, but on a different batch of airplanes. So the Terminator upgraded machines have very different IPs than the original F-4E, while it is my understanding that the F-4ETM was very similar in IP layout to the F-4E as it came out of the factory. Photographic evidence here would be highly appreciated, but I couldn't find any so far.

I stand corrected, never knew that the ETM and 2020 are different airframes. Never too old to learn.

[Terry1954]

Wow, one of my all time favourite aircraft, and TWO of them! Nice choices Giorgio. I've been wanting to see what the Finemolds F-4E is like. I have one of their 1/72 F-14's and it is superb. I was "encouraged" to buy it a while back when I was with @Cookenbacher, @Procopius, @Navy Bird and @CedB after a great day at the FAA museum! 🤪

 

Excellent work so far. Will stick around for this one most certainly.

 

Terry

[giemme]

14 hours ago, The Spadgent said:

Mind boggled. That orumaru stuff looks amazing. You just heat it up and push the part into it and you have a mould. That’s ace. What resin do you use? 

First time I try the Oyumaru, but as I said I was really impressed at how it retained even the finest detail. As for the resin, it's some local stuff, this: https://www.amazon.it/RESINA-POLIURETANICA-COLATA-POLIREX-bi-Componente/dp/B01M8IIERC/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_it_IT=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&dchild=1&keywords=resina+poliuretanica+polirex&qid=1620127663&sr=8-1

 

It's a 1;1 mixing ratio in volume, so pretty straightforward to use (with mask and gloves, anyway); and you can de-mould it in 30 minutes.

 

2 hours ago, Nebbor said:

I stand corrected, never knew that the ETM and 2020 are different airframes. Never too old to learn.

Well, it is a very confusing matter. I re-read the article I mentioned ("F-4 Phantom II - Flight route in Turkey and world", written by Cem Dogut), and there's a timeline of the F-4E and RF-4E acquisitions by Turkey: the very early airplanes arrived in 1974, while the last supply was a batch of 40 F-4E former US ANG, delivered in 1991-1992; I counted over 140 F-4E acquired by Turkey during that time-frame.

The Terminator upgrade took place around the year 2000, and it involved 54 aircraft (I guess the older ones); the Simsek upgrade started in 2006 (the very first airplane to undergo the process being the one I intend to model, that is 68-0403) and was completed in 2010. The writer doesn't mention how many airplanes were involved in it, though....  

 

21 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

Wow, one of my all time favourite aircraft, and TWO of them! Nice choices Giorgio. I've been wanting to see what the Finemolds F-4E is like. I have one of their 1/72 F-14's and it is superb. I was "encouraged" to buy it a while back when I was with @Cookenbacher, @Procopius, @Navy Bird and @CedB after a great day at the FAA museum! 🤪

 

Excellent work so far. Will stick around for this one most certainly.

 

Terry

Thanks Terry, and welcome!  I shall get one of FM F-14's myself - I do have an Hasegawa F-14A in my stash, would be nice to do another double build to compare the two. Wait, what am I saying? Another double build? I've gone totally CCized!    

 

Ciao

[Nebbor]

1 hour ago, giemme said:

The writer doesn't mention how many airplanes were involved in it, though....  

Believed to be 16: https://www.key.aero/article/phantom-survivors-turkish-terminators