Colour help needed - Canadian CT15A truck in Sicily

[SimonL]

Here in Perth in Western Australia we have gone into a COVID induced snap 3 day lockdown, so I was contemplating a quick build of the rather nice IBG 1:72 C15A truck. I was thinking of finishing it as a vehicle with the 1st Canadian Infantry Division in Sicily, however bit stumped over the colour. The instructions would suggest olive drab, and by all appearances US olive drab (the colour call out is for Vallejo 887). But reviewing the MAFVA website, it would more likely be SCC 2. However it would appear vehicles for the 1st Canadian Corps in UK (although it would appear strictly that that corps didnt get activated until well into the Italian campaign) were painted SCC4 (stone) with the RAF roundels on an upper surface prior to Operation Husky. There is also the possibility I guess of Light Mud. I’ve tried looking online for example photos, but of course with any of these colours a black and white photo isn’t much help.

 

Any thoughts out there in the collective?

[Kingsman]

It is certain that no C15TAs left the factory in OD.  Despite Canada's closeness to the USA they adhered to UK painting practice.  So in your time frame SCC2 would have been the factory finish colour.  But from April 44 the base colour changed to SCC15 so late production trucks would have been this colour.  Perhaps this is what IBG are basing their colour on (although SCC15 was not OD).

 

Light Mud with a darker disruptive pattern was the authorised colour for later in Tunisia, in Sicily and in Italy until mid-44.  I believe that Light Mud was a "theatre colour" outside the SCC palette and therefore unlikely to have been available in the UK.  So painting prior to departure might lend weight to using the closest available match, most likely SCC5 as the closest SCC to Light Mud.  But if you have reliable documented period eyewitness testimony of SCC4 Stone being used..........  However, SCC4 Stone is quite a brown colour only slightly lighter than SCC2 and much darker than Light Mud so that colour change would seem inherently pointless.  Did the reference perhaps mean the older BS61 Light Stone, the previous authorised N Africa colour before Light Mud?  That would probably have been available in the UK and would be a far more appropriate - if no longer authorised - colour than SCC4.  IIRC vehicles other than tanks had a lower Light Mud repainting priority and were permitted to remain in Light Stone until the situation permitted.

 

SCC2 was permitted as a disruptive colour and vehicles arriving in the Mediterranean theatre in SCC2 were only required to be partly overpainted with Light Mud, not fully repainted.  The preferable disruptive colour was black, actually more of a blue-black, but SCC2, OD, Khaki Green and dark green were all permitted alternatives to save time and paint.

[SimonL]

I assumed the OD was incorrect for the reasons you outline. The comment regarding SCC4 was straight from the MAFVA website https://www.mafva.org/british-vehicle-camouflage-1939-45/?v=79cba1185463 but further searching found this thread where it appears there would be some doubt as it was only mentioned in a document.

That all being said - if I have read your comments correctly SCC2 should be reasonable - which is good as I have some in stock (what with a trip to the hobby shop not being on the cards due to the lockdown).

 

Strangely enough the box top painting has a vehicle that is very definitely brown in colour.

Edited April 24, 2021 by SimonL

[JackG]

A photo from the National Archives of Canada has a  CMP truck being prepared for embarkation to Sicily.   It further identifies the unit as being the 1st Cdn. Army Tank Bde.   Seems the existing camou scheme is being painted over with a darker colour, quite possibly S.C.C.14, but does not  follow the guideline as found on Mike Starmer's MAFVA site as the darker disruptive has also been added to the top portion of the vehicle?

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited April 24, 2021 by JackG
new photo link

[Graham Boak]

The dark tops was very much to the standard pattern, and the round lobes coming down the sides ("Mickey Mouse") was very common.  

[Steben]

13 minutes ago, JackG said:

A photo from the National Archives of Canada has a  CMP truck being prepared for embarkation to Sicily.   It further identifies the unit as being the 1st Cdn. Army Tank Bde.   Seems the existing camou scheme is being painted over with a darker colour, quite possibly S.C.C.14, but does not  follow the guideline as found on Mike Starmer's MAFVA site as the darker disruptive has also been added to the top portion of the vehicle?

 

 

regards,

Jack

I can't see the picture alas

[Graham Boak]

Click on the dot.  It then opens - did for me.

[binglee]

Here are two links to Canadian Army WWII Albums. They are the contact sheets from Canadian Film and Photo Unit photographers. They are PDF files and you can zoom in for a better look.
The first link has pre-departure photos as troops readied for Sicily.
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=fonandcol&IdNumber=5065189&new=-8585823242763679475

The second is later in the campaign. It has a number of trucks. There are more in the series. These are just good Sicily insights.
https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=fonandcol&IdNumber=5065189&new=-8585823242763679475
 

Here's a link that describes what the files contain and an explainer about how to get there on the Canadian archive site:
https://canadianfilmandphotounit.ca/2020/04/12/library-archives-canada-army-numerical-series-110-albums-now-available-online/

Cheers

Bill Inglee

[JackG]

Bill's first link has the truck photo I had posted, located on page 17 of the album.

 

regards,

Jack

[SimonL]

What a treasure trove of material! Ok, so I suspect this will not the quick weekend job I thought it may be...

[Steben]

Today I see it

 

[Steben]

Page 9 shows a CMP in SCC2 + SCC1a IMHO. Rather dark base (compared to Ligth Stone or Mud) with not a very high contrast.
Sherman on most pages is 99% US OD.
Sherman page 71 is OD (turret) with lots of dust I think
CMP on page 46 is liek the one on page 9 (dark, low contrast)
Page 88 staff car is probably light stone with olive disruptive

Edited April 25, 2021 by Steben

[JackG]

I think page 21 has the Shermans on inspection prior to the Sicily invasion operation.   They have dark camou applied only to the bottom of the vehicle, and have treated the turret as a separate entity, and have repeated with just dark camou on the lowers - quite different from the usual dark top and lowers.   Maybe on purpose, or misread on the instructions, who knows.  It also goes against the written evidence in the diaries that stated the Shermans were camouflaged with a sand coloured paint.

 

 

regards,

Jack

Edited April 25, 2021 by JackG

[Steben]

Well spotted! And does not look blueblack! It is the shade side. Almost looks like od with lighter camo on top....

Edited April 25, 2021 by Steben

[JackG]

Difficult to say absolutely, but yes to match the war diaries, the lightest shade on the Sherman could be the sand coloured paint, while the dark could be the original olive finish. 

 

The centers of the squadron markings should be black, and appears distinctly darker than the darkest camou - but how much darker is black compared to S.C.C.14, or was the latter used instead of black on the squadron marking?

 

regards,

Jack

 

[Mike Starmer]

Regarding the CT15, did these come into service in late 1943, too late for Husky but by then being factory finished in SCC.2  

 The orders for repainting are in 1 CDN DIV ADM PREPARATORY INSTR. NO. 1 1214/Q/1 3 MAY 1943.  This has 11 pages of instructions, some of which are quite detailed.  All vehicles are required to be completely repainted in colours other than those they currently carry using SCC.4 PFU.  Appendix 'A' shows a drawing of a truck.   Only the lower parts of the vehicle were to be painted SCC.14 black, all the rest being SCC.4 stone colour.    The regimental war diaries all have different subjective colour names for SCC.4, these being 'a very bright tan', 'light yellow-brown' and 'black and sand broken line scheme'.    Until this change, all vehicles would most likely have been painted in accordance with the UK requirement for MTP.4/4A disruptive scheme of SCC.2 with either SCC.1A or SCC.14.    Part of that may be seen on the repainting image.  It is quite possible that in some cases these top surfaces were not repainted.  From the film capture and other images I have it seems that on Shermans the lower edges of the hull and lower parts of the turret had a disruptive colour applied too.  As stated above who knows why.   An air identification roundel is to be applied to horizontal surfaces except ambulance cars which will carry red crosses on back, top and sides.  An interesting aside is the security measure to disguise the unit during movements to embarkation ports.  All identifying marking were to be covered with paper fixed with flour paste then, when dry, varnished to protect the marking during transit.  A scale of issue for paints, materials and brushes are listed too.

[SimonL]

Sorry @Mike Starmer, typo in the original post title re CT15, I meant the regular C15, not the armoured one (although having seen it now, that looks like an intriguing subject - surprisingly modern looking). Thanks for the very interesting overview. So if I have understood you correctly, it is possibly that vehicles in SCC2 may have had just the SCC14 black disruptive pattern painted, and the top just left as is? Although it also sounds like I could get away with using a paint that has a kind of light earth look to it for SCC4. I think I’ve seen it described as “weak tea” somewhere, although that’s gloriously subjective as well. Like the neat security measure.

On 4/25/2021 at 5:25 PM, Steben said:

Page 9 shows a CMP in SCC2 + SCC1a IMHO. Rather dark base (compared to Ligth Stone or Mud) with not a very high contrast.

That’s probably so - however that looks like it’s on maneouvres in UK before Sicily - so maybe prior to any painting?

[Steben]

 

This is a 987C page with colours corrected so SCC1A, SCC2 and SCC7 appear to me liek they do in reality. SCC4 seems like SCC2 with some white added. A dark tanned skin.

[esaum]

I am a bit late but FWIW. I just got my hands on a copy of the history of the Three Rivers Regiment, a book in French. In there, it is reported that in late April 43, they received beige tropical outfits and that the Sherman’s were also painted beige. No mention of black or dark shade. So this would certainly point towards Light Mud/SCC5 rather than SCC4.  It seems to conform to pictures of TRR Shermans in Italy where the c9lour is highly similar to that of the crew’s tropical outfits. There is usually no clear disruptive pattern other than sometimes a dark strip vis-a-vis the engine. The book also has a number of pictures I had not seen on Internet before. 
 

There is a footnote with respect to the April preps but it points to another book by the same author. I located a copy and will go check in the next few days.

 

Eric

[esaum]

I managed to check out the Three Rivers Regiment other history book published back in 1981. Interestingly, it mentions that while in the UK the tanks were painted beige, a sand colour (“beige, la couleur du sable”). No dark shade is mentioned. Having travelled a bit, I have seen white, black or red sand and everything in between so I checked sand pits around Trois-Rivières on Google maps and nearby business websites and most tend to point to a greyish beige. Assuming that the contemporary witness would have been from the TR area, I now have a hard time believing TRR followed the instructions calling for SCC4. At the same time, Mike Starmer mentions that Light Mud was a ME colour produce locally (Egypt I read somewhere). So the TRR tanks must have been painted in SCC5, UK style. I have seen a SCC5 paint chip on a Patrick Baty website and it appears less dark and less green than the Light Mud we see around. To me, the Baty SCC5 is more in line with what is reported by TRR history. So I am highly highly tempted to settle on that for my upcoming Sherman V. I just have to find an appropriate paint/paint mix now… Any suggestions?
 

As a long shot, my father in-law who lived in Alexandria during WW2–still spends the winter there—and he would have been 6 years old in 1943, might remember something. So I’ll ask him if he has any recollection of British vehicles colours. 
 

Eric

[SimonL]

Thanks Eric, I actually ended up making an approximation of SCC4 for my truck. 
 

 

[esaum]

Hi Simon, I suspect SCC4 the right choice in your case. I sort of hijacked your topic and drifted towards Canadian Sherman pictures of Ontario Rgt and TRR don’t really support the memo’s instructions while the Calgary Rgt do, except for the mysterious “white” hedge in some instances. I should start a new chat focused on these as it’s scattered all over.

 

Cheers

 

[Mike Starmer]

Those Shermans could well be painted SCC.4 but the darker areas do not look black at all, In fact they look more like SCC.1a to me.  Using that colour wouldn't surprise me since it is quite dark tonally and it would certainly have been in unit stores.   Despite the TTR book. the beige colour is merely another description of SCC.4 which is nothing like SCC.5  The French description /translation is misleading.  I own a copy of BS.987 so know exactly what those colours look like.  SCC.4 is very like RAL 1011, not really a colour one could call sand.  I was able to get close with 16 x H29 + 1 x H74 in 1997 but I think H29 now is different.  I formulated a three coloured mix in 2019.

[esaum]

Just to add to the confusion. In the TRR book, it is mentioned that in April 43 while in stationed in Sussex, vehicles (Shermans, unknown version) were repainted beige. I have seen Ontarios war diaries stating a repaint in "yellow-brown" which would conform to SCC4. Meanwhile the Calgary Tank Regiment diary mentions black and sand coloured  pattern which to me resembles Light Mud+SCC14. However, upon being called into action, the TRR was sent to Scotland where they received new Shermans (M4A4). So chronologically, they couldn't have been the repainted ones of April. So what was the color scheme then? SCC4+SCC14(SCC1A?) to Canadian orders or Light Mud/SCC14 to British ones? We will never know I guess.

However, there is a picture in the book with the caption indicating crew posing in front of one of the new Sherman in Scotland. The picture is 3/4 frontal and not very large but one can clearly see two tones, the darker one in the lower part of the hull and the lower turret horizontal strip, although the later is less obvious. Looking at various pictures I am starting to be inclined to think that the TRR (and possibly Ontarios) never received the dark tone treatment but only a patchy SCC4 one with the original tank colour (US OD?) creating the pattern. Cheers

[binglee]

50 minutes ago, esaum said:

Looking at various pictures I am starting to be inclined to think that the TRR (and possibly Ontarios) never received the dark tone treatment but only a patchy SCC4 one with the original tank colour (US OD?) creating the pattern. Cheers

Hi,

My understanding is that TRR was loaded early for the initial landings and as such didn't have time to paint their tanks in the new schemes.
Waterproofing could explain the horizontal strip on the lower turret.
I agree that based on photos, TRR kept its OD tanks through the Moro campaign at least, perhaps with a few localized exceptions.

These two documents spell out the TRR detachment from 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade to land in the first wave on Sicily.
 

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/themes/defence/caf/militaryhistory/dhh/reports/cmhq-reports/cmhq132.pdf

 

 

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/themes/defence/caf/militaryhistory/dhh/reports/cmhq-reports/cmhq126.pdf Page 72

 

My thoughts anyway.

Cheers

Bill Inglee