Mercedes L 4500

[APA]

Thats a really n ice touch with the fuel tank 👍🏻. Nice attention to detail alround here. Looking at the pics of the real thing it's dificult to see if there were any hinges along the front of the base although there does seem to be  three small notches which may have been hinges. It wouldn't have hinged to the rear as the cushion would prevent that and I doubt it would lift off as it would be a pain and need to be done too often.

 

Andrew

[Pig of the Week]

The Military spec Land Rovers you had to lift the seat bases out to access the petrol tanks, so not beyond possibility on this truck that it was a bit of a faff to fill her up !

[Lummox]

14 hours ago, APA said:

Looking at the pics of the real thing it's dificult to see if there were any hinges along the front of the base although there does seem to be  three small notches which may have been hinges. It wouldn't have hinged to the rear as the cushion would prevent that and I doubt it would lift off as it would be a pain and need to be done too often

I agree Andrew that it the sheer bulk of the back cushion would prevent the necessary clearance for hinges at the rear to be feasible. You'd think that lifting the whole thing off would be grief - surely they wouldn't inflict that on the long suffering drivers...?

 

14 hours ago, Pig of the Week said:

The Military spec Land Rovers you had to lift the seat bases out to access the petrol tanks, so not beyond possibility on this truck that it was a bit of a faff to fill her up !

Oh, hang on, it sound like they would inflict that on the long suffering drivers.

 

There is another picture that's confuses things further (well for me anyway). Here's a shot of the L 4500 at Saumur. It's not the same version as that modelled by Zvezda (the dash is very different for example) but I assume that the seat arrangement would be similar. Top right of the picture looks to be the seat, but what is supporting it? Is the photographer jolly strong, holding the seat with one hand while snapping with the other? I've been scratching my head over this but don't really understand what's going on:

 

It would be great to figure things out one way or the other 'cos I purchased these on a whim (I think you may be able to see where I'm eventually going with this )...

 

Meanwhile, there has been a teeny bit of progress on the build. The fuel and oil filters have been added to the engine and some more paint sloshed on...

 

 

I probably need to do an update dedicated to the engine to illustrate what I think the various components are (I may well be talking gibberish). I'll aim to do that next.

 

Cheers, and thanks for looking.

 

Paul.

[Kelscale]

Hi Paul

 

You probably have these already but some of the interior pics I used for reference plus a hydraulics diagram

 

Judging by the lower cushion position I would guess it just pulled out

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Kelscale

[Pig of the Week]

Looking at it I'd think if it's under the seat fill type of thing it'd  be just like the Land Rover set up.

You'd just lift it up out of the way to access the filler cap...at least the LR ones were split into 3 individual seat bases rather than one big bench type.

You had a tank under the driver's seat, and another under the passenger seat, you filled each one seperately, and could flip a "tap" to select which tank you wanted to use.

[Lummox]

1 hour ago, Kelscale said:

You probably have these already but some of the interior pics I used for reference plus a hydraulics diagram

 

Judging by the lower cushion position I would guess it just pulled out

Thanks for the pictures Kelscale, I've seen most of them but a couple are new. The first example appears to have split seats rather than one bench seat. I suspect this is not original being a later modification during restoration, but who knows?

 

1 hour ago, Pig of the Week said:

Looking at it I'd think if it's under the seat fill type of thing it'd  be just like the Land Rover set up.

You'd just lift it up out of the way to access the filler cap...at least the LR ones were split into 3 individual seat bases rather than one big bench type.

You had a tank under the driver's seat, and another under the passenger seat, you filled each one seperately, and could flip a "tap" to select which tank you wanted to use.

Thanks Pig. Out of interest, what did you do with the seat when you lifted it off? Lob it in the foot-well, chuck it on the ground, or lean against the vehicle? I'm guessing that whatever you did the L 4500 guys would likely have done.

 

Cheers, Paul

[Pig of the Week]

56 minutes ago, Lummox said:

Thanks for the pictures Kelscale, I've seen most of them but a couple are new. The first example appears to have split seats rather than one bench seat. I suspect this is not original being a later modification during restoration, but who knows?

 

Thanks Pig. Out of interest, what did you do with the seat when you lifted it off? Lob it in the foot-well, chuck it on the ground, or lean against the vehicle? I'm guessing that whatever you did the L 4500 guys would likely have done.

 

Cheers, Paul

The loose seat base you either threw it on the middle seat or as you say lob it in the footwell, ( if it was a 24v radio truck the middle seat was replaced by a metal box for 2 batteries btw ) the seat bases are not heavy or anything just a lump of foam with a plywood base covered in plastic vinyl stuff.

[Tcoat]

6 hours ago, Lummox said:

Thanks for the pictures Kelscale, I've seen most of them but a couple are new. The first example appears to have split seats rather than one bench seat. I suspect this is not original being a later modification during restoration, but who knows?

 

Thanks Pig. Out of interest, what did you do with the seat when you lifted it off? Lob it in the foot-well, chuck it on the ground, or lean against the vehicle? I'm guessing that whatever you did the L 4500 guys would likely have done.

 

Cheers, Paul

Being an old Army driver from way back I know that there is no way I would be pulling a seat out. Not that I ever had to do it since we had external tanks on the old Deuces I have little doubt I would do much like the picture.

If filled from the driver side just lift it up, prop one corner on the steering wheel and shove a board under the other corner. If from the passenger side then just the board, pipe, stick, whatever I found the easiest. No doubt it would fall on my head a time or two but being the easiest way I would have cursed and carried on doing the same.

[Lummox]

22 hours ago, Pig of the Week said:

the seat bases are not heavy or anything just a lump of foam with a plywood base covered in plastic vinyl stuff.

Thanks Pig. The faff in the Landy doesn't sound too bad - I suspect that the L 4500 seat would have been like a church pew in comparison

 

16 hours ago, Tcoat said:

If filled from the driver side just lift it up, prop one corner on the steering wheel and shove a board under the other corner. If from the passenger side then just the board, pipe, stick, whatever I found the easiest. No doubt it would fall on my head a time or two but being the easiest way I would have cursed and carried on doing the same.

 Thanks for your insights Tcoat. I agree, I think that the seat would just be too unwieldy to lift off and put somewhere, it being much easier to tilt and prop in some way.
 

I suppose there could have been some kind of friction hinge type thing (similar to what you may find in a casement window). I know the Germans over engineered things, but a complex hinge arrangement like this would seem to be a tad OTT:

 

I'm leaning towards a much simpler set up similar to that suggested by Tcoat - pull the seat forward a bit, tilt it, and ram a prop of some kind in there:

 

Cheers, thanks for looking, and thanks for the comments.

 

Paul.

[Tcoat]

13 minutes ago, Lummox said:

Thanks Pig. The faff in the Landy doesn't sound too bad - I suspect that the L 4500 seat would have been like a church pew in comparison

 

 Thanks for your insights Tcoat. I agree, I think that the seat would just be too unwieldy to lift off and put somewhere, it being much easier to tilt and prop in some way.
 

I suppose there could have been some kind of friction hinge type thing (similar to what you may find in a casement window). I know the Germans over engineered things, but a complex hinge arrangement like this would seem to be a tad OTT:

 

I'm leaning towards a much simpler set up similar to that suggested by Tcoat - pull the seat forward a bit, tilt it, and ram a prop of some kind in there:

 

Cheers, thanks for looking, and thanks for the comments.

 

Paul.

Although they tended to overengineer many things those trucks are pretty much unchanged since the late 20s or so so I doubt there was any complicated mech to hold the seat up.

Just look at it and figure out the laziest possible way to get fuel in there and that is probably what happened 95% of the time no matter what the actual procedure was supposed to be. 

[Pig of the Week]

Interesting to see in model form shows it quite clearly, love the fuel tank and filler neck detail !.....certainly the seat base is quite a big lump compared to the LR individual "cushions"... I'd agree that you'd just hoik it out of the way any old how, but the way you show it makes perfect sense, they probably found and kept a suitable bit of wood or a stick in the cab for just that purpose !

[Lummox]

On 5/5/2021 at 6:36 PM, Tcoat said:

Just look at it and figure out the laziest possible way to get fuel in there and that is probably what happened 95% of the time no matter what the actual procedure was supposed to be.

Makes perfect sense Tcoat. Lazy works for me too, though I'd probably term it 'efficient'.

 

On 5/5/2021 at 10:02 PM, Pig of the Week said:

but the way you show it makes perfect sense, they probably found and kept a suitable bit of wood or a stick in the cab for just that purpose !

Thanks Mr Pig. I'll see what I can come up with on the stick front.

 

 

The latest update will cover the engine, mainly to use you guys as a sounding board to validate my understanding more than anything else. Not being mechanically minded  (checking fluid levels in the car is my limit!) most of the terminology I use is educated guess work. Understanding what the engine components are is important though when attempting to wire/plumb the engine within the vehicle. Feel free to jump in if I've misidentified or misunderstood something.

 

Let's start with the less complex side of the engine:

 

The kit portrays this pretty well. The fan, fan-belt and pulley mechanisms need to be added, as does the dip-stick (and the various cooling plumbing to the radiator mentioned in a previous post). Not sure about the exhaust manifold though. It looks a tad skinny, and the pipes from the cylinders look to be too long causing the whole thing to sit too low. Not sure whether I'll do anything with this as it may well be a can of worms:

 

Now for the more busy side:

 

Again, the kit doesn't do a bad job, but it does only give you the basics really. Disappointingly there was nothing to represent the fuel injector nozzles, so I've had to scratch them along with the seating holes on the engine. Also the top of the compressor provided in the kit (pictured to the right) was incorrect and looked a bit weedy, so a replacement was made. That being said, it's not too bad - just needed a bit of TLC:

 

 

As an aside, during initial research I was confused as the kit engine didn't look like examples that could be found on the net. My guess is that the kit engine represents a early version, and in later versions a different, larger compressor was fitted which meant that the fuel filter had to be relocated to mid engine:

 

On-line examples seem to have this later version of the engine (I've yet to find an example that matches the engine in the kit):

 

Cheers, and thanks for looking.

 

Paul.

[Tcoat]

1 hour ago, Lummox said:

Makes perfect sense Tcoat. Lazy works for me too, though I'd probably term it 'efficient'.

 

 

Well "efficient" would have been the word I used with the Sargent.

Believe me I poured enough fuel into vehicles (and later aircraft) to be very "efficient". 

 

 

 

[APA]

1 hour ago, Lummox said:

Makes perfect sense Tcoat. Lazy works for me too, though I'd probably term it 'efficient'.

 

Thanks Mr Pig. I'll see what I can come up with on the stick front.

 

 

The latest update will cover the engine, mainly to use you guys as a sounding board to validate my understanding more than anything else. Not being mechanically minded  (checking fluid levels in the car is my limit!) most of the terminology I use is educated guess work. Understanding what the engine components are is important though when attempting to wire/plumb the engine within the vehicle. Feel free to jump in if I've misidentified or misunderstood something.

 

Let's start with the less complex side of the engine:

 

The kit portrays this pretty well. The fan, fan-belt and pulley mechanisms need to be added, as does the dip-stick (and the various cooling plumbing to the radiator mentioned in a previous post). Not sure about the exhaust manifold though. It looks a tad skinny, and the pipes from the cylinders look to be too long causing the whole thing to sit too low. Not sure whether I'll do anything with this as it may well be a can of worms:

 

Now for the more busy side:

 

Again, the kit doesn't do a bad job, but it does only give you the basics really. Disappointingly there was nothing to represent the fuel injector nozzles, so I've had to scratch them along with the seating holes on the engine. Also the top of the compressor provided in the kit (pictured to the right) was incorrect and looked a bit weedy, so a replacement was made. That being said, it's not too bad - just needed a bit of TLC:

 

 

As an aside, during initial research I was confused as the kit engine didn't look like examples that could be found on the net. My guess is that the kit engine represents a early version, and in later versions a different, larger compressor was fitted which meant that the fuel filter had to be relocated to mid engine:

 

On-line examples seem to have this later version of the engine (I've yet to find an example that matches the engine in the kit):

 

Cheers, and thanks for looking.

 

Paul.

I'm really liking the detail on this engine and what you've done with it. Separate spark plugs😳 what ever next 😁

 

Andrew 

[Bullbasket]

Nice work with the cab and the engine.

 

John.

[Pig of the Week]

That engine's stunning mate ! 👍

[Lummox]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:50 PM, APA said:

I'm really liking the detail on this engine and what you've done with it. Separate spark plugs😳 what ever next

Thanks Andrew, but you've fallen into the trap I did when I started working on the engine. Apparently diesel engines don't have spark plugs. Who knew? I certainly didn't until recently...

 

https://engineeringinsider.org/no-spark-plug-diesel-engine/

 

Those things that look like spark plugs are fuel injector nozzles. No, me neither

[APA]

42 minutes ago, Lummox said:

Thanks Andrew, but you've fallen into the trap I did when I started working on the engine. Apparently diesel engines don't have spark plugs. Who knew? I certainly didn't until recently...

 

https://engineeringinsider.org/no-spark-plug-diesel-engine/

 

Those things that look like spark plugs are fuel injector nozzles. No, me neither

Ha ha! Well I know diesels have injectors and petrols have plugs, I've had a few of both in my time, but I didn't know this was a diesel so I'll rephrase;

 

Separate fuel injectors 😳 whatever next! 😉

 

Andrew

[Ned]

I like to look at an engine and work out what is what and how they're connected. Yours is looking great.

Fun fact: diesels don't have spark plugs, but they do have glow plugs! Diesels need a bit of help to get going in cold weather, so each cylinder has a heating element. On your engine it's the little nubs wired together below each injector.

 

The injectors themselves each have a high pressure pipe going to them from the pump, but also a low pressure one going back to the tank for recycling unused fuel. That's the line going along the top of the injectors and down by the rear of the pump in the pictures. Too small to model, but it helps to make sense of what it looks like.

 

I had a Land Rover with a nasty old Perkins industrial diesel engine, so I had to learn all about it. Starting it in even a UK winter was horrible when the glow plugs weren't connected.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Ned
Return line goes back to tank, not pump.

[Lummox]

On 5/7/2021 at 5:35 PM, Tcoat said:

Well "efficient" would have been the word I used with the Sargent.

Believe me I poured enough fuel into vehicles (and later aircraft) to be very "efficient". 

Cool picture Tcoat 👍

 

On 5/8/2021 at 8:14 AM, Bullbasket said:

Nice work with the cab and the engine.

Thanks John.

 

23 hours ago, Pig of the Week said:

That engine's stunning mate !

Cheers Mr Pig.

 

21 hours ago, APA said:

Ha ha! Well I know diesels have injectors and petrols have plugs, I've had a few of both in my time, but I didn't know this was a diesel so I'll rephrase;

 

Separate fuel injectors 😳 whatever next!

Ah, I should have known not everyone is a thick as me! Thanks for the comments Andrew.

 

8 hours ago, Ned said:

I like to look at an engine and work out what is what and how they're connected. Yours is looking great.

Fun fact: diesels don't have spark plugs, but they do have glow plugs! Diesels need a bit of help to get going in cold weather, so each cylinder has a heating element. On your engine it's the little nubs wired together below each injector.

 

The injectors themselves each have a high pressure pipe going to them from the pump, but also a low pressure one going back to the tank for recycling unused fuel. That's the line going along the top of the injectors and down by the rear of the pump in the pictures. Too small to model, but it helps to make sense of what it looks like.

 

I had a Land Rover with a nasty old Perkins industrial diesel engine, so I had to learn all about it. Starting it in even a UK winter was horrible when the glow plugs weren't connected.

Many thanks Ned, those pearls of wisdom have filled in a few blanks in my understanding - things are starting to fall into place now.

'Too small to model' you say. Hmmm, sounds like a challenge.

 

 

Managed a bit of time at the bench this weekend, mostly working on beefing up the cab area. Using this as a reference...

 

...I've added some detail, namely (using my best technical terminology); the bar things either side of the dash binnacle, opened and boxed in the 'glove compartment', manufactured the fuse/connector jobbies, and added the plate and tube for the cable leading the the speedometer (bit of a guess that one):

 

Thought I'd see what the etch for the binnacle looks like. Not too bad, but unfortunately it's just a tad off-centre (hard to see from the photo but it overhangs slightly to the left). I'll need to finesse the fit, probably by shaving off and moving the speedometer slightly:

 

Also, using 0.3mm lead wire and a rough jig...

 

...I've been producing spring things to start detailing the underside of the seat (as this will be visible when propped). Very much a work in progress this:

 

Cheers, and thanks for looking,

 

Paul.

[APA]

Cool effect and nice touch on the springs. Excellent thinking there 👍🏻 Bit late but perhaps some thick tissue between the springs and back to give a cloth covered padding bulge effect 😉

 

Andrew

[Lummox]

On 5/9/2021 at 7:34 PM, APA said:

Bit late but perhaps some thick tissue between the springs and back to give a cloth covered padding bulge effect

Nice idea Andrew, wish you'd suggested it before I slathered glue everywhere

 

The seat has moved on, with an attempt to replicate some internal framing, and some slats as seen in the embedded glimpse of an extant example. I'm not sure what to make of the end result to be honest. Let's see what it's like under paint I suppose:

 

To change focus I moved back to the engine. There appears to be some plumbing from the oil filter round the front of the engine as highlighted below. Where the pipes go to on the other side is a bit of a mystery:

 

As a rough approximation for this pipework we now have this...

 

...which traverses the front like this...

 

...and terminates in a totally imaginary fashion like this...

 

 

Cheers, and thanks for looking.

[Cerberus]

 Looking at the picture of that seat, it could of had some crazy kind of pull out/forwards and then upwards hinge arrangement in the middle section, this would lift the back of the seat higher as in the picture, so that the front misses the steering wheel, and would maybe leave the seat as it appears in the picture? just a guess...

 

 But anyway, very nice work, that engine is very cool indeed.

 

 Matt

[APA]

Really excellent work there @Lummox👍🏻 Paint it hessian or buff etc it will look fine and be a good backdrop for the springs and subframe. Again, a very nice touch.😊

 

Andrew

[Lummox]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:27 PM, Cerberus said:

Looking at the picture of that seat, it could of had some crazy kind of pull out/forwards and then upwards hinge arrangement in the middle section, this would lift the back of the seat higher as in the picture, so that the front misses the steering wheel, and would maybe leave the seat as it appears in the picture? just a guess...

 

 But anyway, very nice work, that engine is very cool indeed.

Thanks for the kind comments Matt.

How the seat hinged (if indeed it did) is all a bit of a mystery. It may well have had some groovy mechanism such as you suggest, but without any firm evidence to go on I think the consensus was to keep it simple and go with an agricultural 'lift and prop' approach.

 

On 5/12/2021 at 9:36 PM, APA said:

Really excellent work there @Lummox👍🏻 Paint it hessian or buff etc it will look fine and be a good backdrop for the springs and subframe. Again, a very nice touch.

Cheers Andrew - I see some painting in my very near future.

 

 

Not managed much bench time recently (work and life getting in the way), so just a short and sweet update today. I've made inroads into a job I haven't been looking forward to, namely sorting out the fuel injector nozzles and their associated plumbing.

 

This is what we're aiming to reproduce:

 

Incidentally, the image is a screen shot from an interesting YouTube video of a German chap talking about a L 4500 restoration. Unfortunately I don't speak German as I'm sure there would be many nuggets of information to be had:

 

I scratched some nozzles a while ago by drilling holes in appropriately sized nuts to accept tubing, mounting on plastic rod, and adding smaller nuts on top. Lead wire can then be used for the plumbing between the fuel injector and the nozzles:

 

I sketched a rough diagram to get the general orientation of things:

 

And after much fiddling, prodding, squinting and cursing ended up with this:

 

And a view from the top:

 

I'll let that dry overnight and then set about tidying things up. I don't mind admitting that I'm glad it's done.

 

Cheers, and thanks for looking.