Super VC10 wing details

[CT Modeller]

Just came across this photo on the net of a Super VC10 wing top surface which shows all kinds of detail that I wish I had when I was building the Roden kit - in particular those vortex generators that are difficult to see on most photos, and the way in which the spoilers fit in the wing:

 

 

[bzn20]

Vortex Generators .That was a Super VC10 trait and is on the ex East African Tens . If I'd spent a lot of time on one of the others ( RAF C.Mk 1s, ) and then walked a Super wing . I was always tripping over them . Those spoilers are sitting slightly off their beds unless they were caught moving and if they were thats why the ailerons are up a tad . Otherwise , check out the Aileron upset . This is to put a down force on the wing to relieve spar tension . Boeings, Douglas had the Engine mass to the same job .The bolt heads highlighted  ( not on the spoiler leg fairings ) are Taper Bolts half to three quarter inch diameter heads  . IIRC the 144th Airfix 707 kit  has Vortex Gens.  Be a pain to fit your own at 144th though and worth it ? That Super VC10 G-ASGF was scrapped at Brize 1989 -91 ish . I was robbing bits off it for the ones we had in the hangar . We also had SGD and SGE plus a Standard Ten in Gulf colours G-ARVJ that slowly got smaller a lighter too . Good skive on a sunny day !

BTW that ripple effect /Panting arrives in flight on the thinner sheet metal "falsework" sucking up against  the ribs underneath . 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by bzn20

[CT Modeller]

If I ever want to find out about VC10s I certainly know who to go to now! Thanks for all that

[Archer_VC10]

Just curious, but where did you find that photo?

[bzn20]

13 hours ago, Archer_VC10 said:

Just curious, but where did you find that photo?

 

Hi Jelle ,hope alls well with you .. Obviously  I have no idea where he found it  but if you'd a google image search you get a stack of pictures. so guessing that If it came from VC10.net that Image,once clicked on,  comes up on that google image page larger on the right side of the page you can save it bypassing the blocked save image right click function on VC10.net  and the copyright is only mentioned as ... Quote   Images MAY  be subject to copyright. Learn more  ... End  quote. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by bzn20

[bzn20]

10 hours ago, bzn20 said:

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by bzn20

[Archer_VC10]

Hi bzn20, all well here, thanks. With you too I hope. Actually, that photo is not from my site... as far as I can tell. I know that there are several ways of bypassing the restrictions on my site, and other sites, but that is an inevitable problem that is inherent to the internet. Anyway, I like the details in this photo as it adds a bit of info to my story about the differences in the wings of the various sub-versions. The 1154 wings do not have those vortex generators, it is interesting to see that the 1151 wings did use them.

[bzn20]

It is weird  . The wings are the same although we hear about Super and C. Mk 1/C.1K  wings v the Standards .I've crawled though them all .The BOAC Standards are different ( sold old on or leased to  UAE ,Gulf Air ,RAF K2. ) All the others got the inboard leading edge extensions , wing fence positions were slightly different between the Super and Standards though . Standards have outbd full chord fence rib 28 ish . Wing tips is another subject 

Edited June 28, 2021 by bzn20

[TheyJammedKenny!]

Wait, do I understand correctly that the ailerons and spoilers on both wings would deflect upward slightly to relieve spar tension?  Was that an autopilot-driven function determined by Mach number, or did the crew need to intervene to make this happen?  I've never heard of this before--just amazing stuff--but also slightly eccentric.

[bzn20]

That's right , it was an avionics bit of kit depending on airspeed . To test had to attach a box and fool the Pitot system by pumping air  to make think it was flying . 707s etc had engine mass to to keep the wings down . Spoilers play no part in that but they can be linked with Ailerons and operate together . Downward going wing with spoilers moving up 

[skippiebg]

On 4/21/2021 at 11:49 PM, bzn20 said:

 the 144th Airfix 707 kit  has Vortex Gens.  Be a pain to fit your own at 144th though and worth it?

 

Authentic Airliners sell 1/144 scale relief decals for vortex generators. Not specifically for the VC10, but can be adapted. Making ones from scratch can be an exercise in stultification :)

[Archer_VC10]

The ailerons are normally uprigged by 2.5 degrees and can be mechanically deflected upward a further 8.25 degrees (with flaps retracted) whenever the aircraft weight is in excess of 290,000 lb at heights below 24,000 feet. There is a switch on the overhead panel that controls aileron upset. It is not an autopilot function.

 

The spoilers are interconnected with the ailerons so that they both play a part in the roll control of the aircraft. They do not play any part in wing bending relief.

[bzn20]

On 6/29/2021 at 6:44 PM, Archer_VC10 said:

The ailerons are normally uprigged by 2.5 degrees and can be mechanically deflected upward a further 8.25 degrees (with flaps retracted) whenever the aircraft weight is in excess of 290,000 lb at heights below 24,000 feet. There is a switch on the overhead panel that controls aileron upset. It is not an autopilot function.

 

The spoilers are interconnected with the ailerons so that they both play a part in the roll control of the aircraft. They do not play any part in wing bending relief.

Not sure about that 

Aileron and spoiler link isn't anything to do the Aileron upset . Explained that already . 

 

Altitude isn't a factor I don't think , would that matter ? Airspeed /MACH # is the thing , operates with and without Auto pilot IIRC . I did this   30 plus years ago , hope IIRC. Ailerons were rigged neutral with rigging gear ,angle of dangle .

Edited July 1, 2021 by bzn20

[Archer_VC10]

The autopilot was mentioned by TheyJammedKenny! in a post further back, same thing for the spoilers, I was just agreeing with you on that point 🙂. I quoted that first sentence from the C1K manual so I can't claim to know the why and what behind it...sorry about that. Weight/altitude may have been used as useful limits to avoid confusing the pilots, remember that they are not expected to know too much about the technicalities of this stuff, they're just the drivers...😉

[TheyJammedKenny!]

38 minutes ago, Archer_VC10 said:

remember that they are not expected to know too much about the technicalities of this stuff, they're just the drivers.

Now that's a funny approach.  Our newbie EC-130E pilots were constantly reviewing their Dash-1s, which went into exhaustive detail about aircraft systems, right down to the nitty-gritty of the electrical, hydraulic, and manual back-ups.  At any given moment, the pilot-in-command could give them a "pop quiz" about anything, and they had to be ready.  For them, it was like being back in UPT.  They needed to know the aircraft up, down, and sideways, and that was simply part of being a professional.  It was completely separate from memorizing the "bold face" of the abnormal procedures checklists, for instance, or correctly reading the performance curves.

[bzn20]

4 hours ago, Archer_VC10 said:

The autopilot was mentioned by TheyJammedKenny! in a post further back, same thing for the spoilers, I was just agreeing with you on that point

That's okay Jelle , read through my answer and re jigged it as it appeared I was being a bit awkward and was not my intention .

[Archer_VC10]

6 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

Now that's a funny approach.  Our newbie EC-130E pilots were constantly reviewing their Dash-1s, which went into exhaustive detail about aircraft systems, right down to the nitty-gritty of the electrical, hydraulic, and manual back-ups. 

I did add a smiley to indicate that I wasn't 100% serious. Joking aside, limitations for a system may be linked to a different parameter to make things easier for the operating side. Don't ask me to come up with an example right now though. My background is within the civil side of flying in EASA land, and trust me, the current crop of airline pilots are not trained to the level you describe.

2 hours ago, bzn20 said:

That's okay Jelle , read through my answer and re jigged it as it appeared I was being a bit awkward and was not my intention .

No problem bzn20!

Edited June 30, 2021 by Archer_VC10

[Glen]

On 6/29/2021 at 5:44 PM, Archer_VC10 said:

The ailerons are normally uprigged by 2.5 degrees and can be mechanically deflected upward a further 8.25 degrees (with flaps retracted) whenever the aircraft weight is in excess of 290,000 lb at heights below 24,000 feet. There is a switch on the overhead panel that controls aileron upset. It is not an autopilot function.

 

The spoilers are interconnected with the ailerons so that they both play a part in the roll control of the aircraft. They do not play any part in wing bending relief.

As far as I remember the aileron upset switch was selected on before take off  (C1). As the flaps ran in the ailerons would then automatically deflect up. At 24000ft the switch was turned off. We usually watched the control position indicators on the overhead panel to make sure it worked properly. It didn’t matter if the autopilot was in use or not (it wouldn’t be before the aircraft was clean anyway). I seem to recollect that towards the end of their lives the aileron upset was used permanently but not 100% on that.

 

The ailerons and spoilers were linked for roll control as in most big aeroplanes. However in the 10 there is a lever to split them so that the Captain’s control wheel controls the ailerons and the co pilot the spoilers. I think it was designed for a jam in one of the systems so that the aircraft could be flown on the other part. The ailerons were slightly more effective than the spoilers so if both pilots applied full opposite controls with the systems split the Captain would win. I know of it having to be used once when the aircraft started rolling with the crew unable to stop it. They split the system and the co pilot flew the aircraft with the spoilers for roll control

 

On 6/30/2021 at 1:17 PM, Archer_VC10 said:

Weight/altitude may have been used as useful limits to avoid confusing the pilots, remember that they are not expected to know too much about the technicalities of this stuff, they're just the drivers...😉

.

We were taught and expected to know considerably more in the military compared to the civvy world. Trouble is the less I need to know the less I can remember! Or is that just old age….?

[Blacktjet]

I would have thought that the new 3d printed decals technology would be perfect for producing rows of vortex generators and for ease of application.

[skippiebg]

2 hours ago, Blacktjet said:

I would have thought that the new 3d printed decals technology would be perfect for producing rows of vortex generators and for ease of application.

See up thread for a mention of relief decals. The technology, incidentally, is nothing to do with 3d printing. Instead, it is rather old and very simple: perhaps you've noticed how the black images on monochrome xerocopies stand slightly proud of the paper surface. Some 40 years ago, relief business and visiting cards printed this way briefly became all the rage. Decals took their time...

Edited January 12, 2022 by skippiebg
spelling

[bzn20]

The other detail to remember on the Vortex Generators was the angle changes every other Vor/gen ,matched and increased speed in the Bernoulli effect forcing rapid air down towards the trailing edge where it would have stagnated with out the VorGens . The East African Supers /K3s were slightly different again . IIRC the BOAC Airfix 707 -436 Vor.gens were over size in 144th .Probaby only 16 SWG ( 1.6 mm) to 1/8th inch in real life .

 

[David H]

On 6/28/2021 at 1:46 PM, skippiebg said:

Authentic Airliners sell 1/144 scale relief decals for vortex generators. Not specifically for the VC10, but can be adapted. Making ones from scratch can be an exercise in stultification

Actually, i ordered some for the 727, i think and they arrived in the mail today.

Now that i got another look at the photos, when i get home i'll see if i have enough to do both wings of my Super. The evolution of the VC10 wing is an interesting story for nerds like me who build these things.

 

-d-

[bzn20]

11 hours ago, David H said:

The evolution of the VC10 wing is an interesting story for nerds like me who build these things.

 

Thats right . Every mark of VC10 has a different mix of aerodynamic bits and peices  

Wing Fence position or ommisions , slat fences or not , different wing fences , vortex gens added , wing tip ,3 types, under wing  fence (Ghana but didn't stay fitted for long )) ,inboard wing area increase and lead edge fairing cross section  ( all but the original BOAC Standards and prototyped early days  )

 

As for Vortex generarators , might not be a big thing in 144th but Boeings and Vickers are different , VC10  were paired ( in a long line of paired up generators toed in like the start of the big end on a   NACA duct. If that makes any sense ! 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by bzn20

[bzn20]

This will explain better than my previous waffle .

Super VC10's Vortex generators are paired like  this in plan view 

/   \   /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  / \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  etc.  ^forward ^

Edited May 12, 2022 by bzn20

[David H]

3 hours ago, bzn20 said:

This will explain better than my previous waffle .

Super VC10's Vortex generators are paired like  this in plan view 

/   \   /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  / \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  etc.  ^forward ^

First off, thanks for responding with your detailed feedback.

 

In a related development, i took a closer look at the vortex generators.

They don't exactly replicate the arrangement you describe but they are close. However, the 727 set comes up just a little bit short in providing enough of em, since they have to span the Supers wing from well inside the outboard leading edge wing fence, to the attachment point for the wingtip.

 

Not sure if i'll order more to make up for the shortfall, save them for my next VC10 build, or wait on the Authentic Airliners VC10 kit to see what you get. I kinda want to get this done and move on.

-d-

Edited May 12, 2022 by David H