OutcastJoel Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 Hello folks, I shall be building this: 20210421_210505_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr it is a white metal kit with milled brass chassis frames and comes with an ancient motor and gearbox I think it even includes brass rod for hand rails but I will find out as we go through... K's were a prolific model railway kit manufacturer back in the day and I think this kit is substantially older than I am. This should give a reasonable idea of what is in the box: 20210421_210807_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) HI, In the past I have built 3 Keyser loco kits though by the looks of it yours is considerably older. Mine are the LNER ex GCR Robinson O4 aka ROD 2-8-0, the GNR Small Atlantic and Gresley's mighty streamlined P2 and the all went together pretty well as I recall. The only problem was the motor which was too feeble to move the heavy lumps of white metal so I ended up sustituting tender drives from various sources - in those days they were easy enough to come by and fairly cheap! Best of luck with this - at least it has inside cylinders so no messy valve gear to sort out! Pete. Edited April 21, 2021 by PeterB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted April 21, 2021 Author Share Posted April 21, 2021 I think I might need to change the motor for something a bit more modern, it is huge (and probably a bit weak) like the ones you mention @PeterB the kit will also need some number plates so I will need to do some digging and find out which 32xxs were based near Shropshire and then go shopping! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted April 21, 2021 Share Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) Hi, At least it is rather easier these days to do the research than back in the 1980's when I was building mine. One of the nice things about the P2 was that it came with a full set of etched name plates - mine is Lord President! Although I have lived in Wales for more than half my life I have to admit GWR is not one of my stronger subjects but I am sure you will find something suitable - what period are you thinking of - always fancied a GWR loco with the Indian Red frames! I bought my most recent sets of plates etc from Modelmaster - Jackson Evans though I also got some stuff from Fox. I found both to be pretty good though the ruddy things are getting expensive these days. I probably still have some spare Hornby X03 and X04 motors as I replaced them with far smoother and quieter "modern versions" with more poles. Cheers Pete Edited April 21, 2021 by PeterB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul821 Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Great to see another railway subject in this GB. I seem to recall K's were the only kits which came with all the parts for a complete build. To date the only running kit loco I have built completely was a K's GWR 0-4-0 tank engine. Will be interested in seeing how this one comes together. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjwomack Posted April 22, 2021 Share Posted April 22, 2021 Oh good someone else bringing retro heavy metal to the party! I had realised they were so ancient (the locos that is), so you're another build in the pre-20 century geological classifications. Mind the box looks about as old, that's proper retro-modelling there. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted May 4, 2021 Author Share Posted May 4, 2021 @Mjwomack incredibly they actually date from 1930s. They were rebuilds of two Victorian classes specifically to provide the Cambrian with light but quite fast locomotives. It took me a while to relearn soldering have done precisely none in the last year, I have also never made a white metal kit before so it took quite a while before I was happy I wasn't going to melt the whole shebang. However, once I had learned, the side frames went on really easily: 20210429_192125_Film2 (1) by OutcastJoel, on Flickr However, the little block on the footplate (rectangle bottom right of photo with a circular hole through the centre) is supposed to line up with the back of the footplate (which it did not)... For some reason the front half of the side frames were both perfect whilst the back halves were 2-3mm short. After agonising about how to disassembly the flipping thing I remembered I was using low temperature solder and dropped it in a jug of boiling water! Having done that the frames were snipped at a point I think I can hide the join and re attached. 20210430_200427_Film2 (1) by OutcastJoel, on Flickr Still not being really sure how to fix them I figured solder would make a reasonable filler, which I can hopefully clean up at a later point. 20210501_194313_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjwomack Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 2 hours ago, OutcastJoel said: However, the little block on the footplate (rectangle bottom right of photo with a circular hole through the centre) is supposed to line up with the back of the footplate (which it did not).. I guess that's for the connection to the tender, so as long as it's central then you could fill and re-drill (you might wonder how I know this😏) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted May 4, 2021 Author Share Posted May 4, 2021 A lot of negative modelling occured tonight. I cleverly decided to tack solder the fixing nuts in place and melted two of the splashers and a chunk of footplate... A few hours later and it finally looks roughly the same as last night (but also slightly rougher). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted May 8, 2021 Author Share Posted May 8, 2021 I still really suck at this and the fit is continues to be sketchy but more progress has happened: 20210508_210305_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted May 9, 2021 Author Share Posted May 9, 2021 Took two hours of fettling but I finally got it all together and not too wonky: 20210509_194822_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 10, 2021 Share Posted May 10, 2021 (edited) Looks good to me mate - when I built my K's models I used 5 minute epoxy and it seemed to work OK - first time I had ever used the stuff. Soldering is probably better but you are braver than me! Do you have any of the "special" self etch primer used on white metal models before painting - as I remember it seems to put a sort of plastic coat over it so the paint adheres properly. Probably not absolutely necessary but I used it on the 5 white metal locos I built I think. Pete Edited May 10, 2021 by PeterB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted May 20, 2021 Author Share Posted May 20, 2021 @PeterB I don't actually have any etching chemicals, I am actually experimenting with using foil for bare metal aircraft and thinking of getting some for that so it might (oddly) be on order before I finish this. I also am starting to worry about getting my number plates before the end of the GB, I ordered it early April and still haven't heard anything... I put the tender together which all fit remarkably well, annoyingly during the process, I lost either the tool box or sand box (I don't know which is which) but I was able to find good enough photos to draw a replacement up and print it. 20210517_164039_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr With that, all of the major subassemblies are now together 20210517_210444_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr I managed to get the courage up to try to do the outside cranks, next the problem of electrickery... 20210520_211221_Film2 by OutcastJoel, on Flickr 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 20, 2021 Share Posted May 20, 2021 (edited) Hi, Back in the period when I was building loco models I also repainted about 50 Hornby/Airfix/Lima/Mainline locos and got through a lot of the old Precision Paints, and it was a tin of their "self etch primer" I used on white metal. These days the new owners sell various etch primers, some "one part" some "two part" and all expensive, but they say it is for brass/nickel - no mention of white metal. I suspect once you have cleaned and de-greased this model ordinary primer will work just as well, if not better. As to using etch primer on foil I would be a little careful as it may eat into/dissolve it, though I have no personal experience and am only guessing. From the description on the Phoenix-Precision site it sounds like it actually chemically attacks the metal and forms a layer of oxide or something on top of it! That sort of thing is more @Heather Kay's territory and I see no mention of etch primer on her recent white metal builds so you probably don't need it - sorry if I mislead you but back in the day I was told you needed it! Pete Edited May 20, 2021 by PeterB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Kay Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 8 hours ago, PeterB said: That sort of thing is more @Heather Kay's territory I am no expert, I freely admit. For brass and nickel is is recommended that an etch primer be used, it is true. I have never really got on with such things. I have the Precision 2-part primer, but it’s a right faff and tricky to use. That said, I have a test piece that’s been kicking around my workshop for several years, and the etch primer coat is impossible to mark or scratch off. It obviously works as expected. I worry, strangely, about how it’s going to affect the airbrush, and I tended to only use it with an ancient worn Badger airbrush that I wasn’t too bothered about if the concoction ruined the thing. I know a lot of folk use an etch primer from Halfords or similar, and I’ve just acquired a can to see how I get on with it. I take the view that I will use an etch primer, if a model will be handled a lot, as a base coat to give top layers of paint something to cling to. I may be daft, but I also apply a coat of "normal" primer before top coating. Having said that, for whitemetal models I’ve found a plain rattlecan acrylic primer quite sufficient. As long as the base metal is clean and degreased and you let the primer dry and gas off for long enough, it can be pretty tough. Surface prep before priming anything is important, Most of my railway models are finished in enamel paint, which can be as tough as nails when it’s fully cured. I'm not sure if any of that was helpful. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 (edited) Hi Heather, One odd thing I noticed when looking at Phoenix-Precision's 2 part etch primer was that they said not to sand/burnish the metal as the primer "grips" better on an unprepared surface - I guess that makes sense on brass but white metal can be a lot rougher in texture and needs burnishing in many cases, or at least that is what I have found. Also, they tell you to de-grease it but not to use washing up liquid as "that has an added chemical to make your glasses sparkle" which apparently stops the etch working. All a bit to complicated for me so if I was doing it again I would burnish/sand them and use Halfords rattle can primer I think. Pete Edited May 21, 2021 by PeterB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Kay Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, PeterB said: All a bit to complicated for me so if I was doing it again I would burnish/sand them and use Halfords rattle can primer I think. Quite. Precision also sell a "cleaner", intended for use to degrease brass/nickel silver before applying the etch primer. The problem for me has always been it’s not easy to apply a cleaner to a model. So many bits and pieces stick out of a model, designed to snag on a cloths or paper towel. Should I use a 25mm decorating brush to apply the stuff? Who knows. It’s one of the many reasons I haven’t used etch primer very often. Happily, I seem to have got away with. For really good paint jobs, I commission a professional to do it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 When de-greasing a resin kit I put the parts in a jar with water and a denture cleaning tablet - but doing that with a completed kit would need some sort of larger container such as a plastic box I suppose. I would have thought something like meths might also work but as you say applying it without breaking off any bits could be a problem. Pete 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjwomack Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 On 5/20/2021 at 9:35 PM, OutcastJoel said: I also am starting to worry about getting my number plates before the end of the GB, I ordered it early April and still haven't heard anything... Who are they coming from? I use Fox's a lot and have been blown away by the speed of service - certainly quicker than I can build the rest of the model! On 5/21/2021 at 12:22 PM, PeterB said: When de-greasing a resin kit I put the parts in a jar with water and a denture cleaning tablet I think this is the tip of the GB!! Now anyone can go and buy denture cleaning tablets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) I also have used Fox albeit a few years ago and they were very good as were Modelmaster in Glasgow - unless they are being specially made for your loco then the ones you ordered do seem to be taking far too long! Presume you have chased them up? As to the denture cleaning tablets cheap ones work perfectly well - no need to pay extra for Steradent! I have not tried them on metal but I assume they would be ok - after all they are designed to de-clag dentures so must be failry mild bleach or whatever. Pete Edited May 23, 2021 by PeterB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutcastJoel Posted May 23, 2021 Author Share Posted May 23, 2021 Thank you for the heads up about Fox, I will give them a look. They are coming Jackson Evans, who have always been pretty solid for me in the past so I imagine they are struggling with covid or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 AFAIK Jackson Evans were taken over by Modelmaster quite a while back. I do remember a problem with him a few years back where he was waiting for whoever made the plates to send them to him, at which point he had I believe to paint the background colour himself - some plates can be either red or black I think so he gets them unpainted and finishes them off himself and it sounds to be a bit of a one man band. I phoned him and we had a nice chat whilst I tactfully suggested he it would be helpful if he could get a move on! Mentioning that it is part of an online build on this forum sometimes seems to help suppliers decide their priorities I find! Pete 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry1954 Posted May 23, 2021 Share Posted May 23, 2021 How did I miss this one. I have a few white metal locos to build, and one in building if you can call an MTK class 59 Diesel, a white metal loco kit! Great start made here, and lots to learn (for me) especially the discussion about etched metal primers. Like @Heather Kay I've always had a very slight concern about how such such primers might impact the inside of my airbrush. Looking forward to seeing this progress. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather Kay Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 On 21/05/2021 at 12:22, PeterB said: jar with water and a denture cleaning tablet I use an ultrasonic bath. I’ve got one of the small ones meant for jewellery and things, which is big enough for small models like the one in this build. I also invested in a more industrial-sized one which will take the larger 7mm scale models I work on. I fill the baths with tap water and a squirt of Viakal (others swear by Barkeeper's Friend and Shiny Sinks). One advantage of a US bath is it dislodges parts that weren’t attached well enough. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjwomack Posted May 24, 2021 Share Posted May 24, 2021 17 hours ago, Terry1954 said: How did I miss this one. I have a few white metal locos to build, and one in building if you can call an MTK class 59 Diesel, a white metal loco kit! Great start made here, and lots to learn (for me) especially the discussion about etched metal primers. Like @Heather Kay I've always had a very slight concern about how such such primers might impact the inside of my airbrush. Looking forward to seeing this progress. Terry Must admit I thought a class 59 was a bit too modern for MTK! Just found one on eBay and it looks like it would qualify for an 'The instructions won't help GB"! In my mind MTK kits were fibreglass or possibly resin body shells, clearly things have moved on since I was last considered modern! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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