RAF Speke Battle of Britain Hurricane

[Nocoolname]

Hi Folks 

 

Due to some sad events I’ve just inherited an unstarted Trumpeter 1/24 Hurricane Mk.I and would really like to build it as the aircraft credited with one of the fastest air to air kills, from RAF Speke during the Battle of Britain.
 

I believe it’s a 312 sqn Hurricane with the code DUP. I can’t find evidence of any specific decals set for this but was wondering if anyone knows whether it is possible to get the correct RAF codes in this scale so I can just create my own version? 
 

Any and all help appreciated!

 

Many thanks 

 

Nocool 

[Troy Smith]

You might want to check the serial,  as I know that at least one of the 312 Sq planes was a very old Hurricane, L1936, DU-J.  which cannot be built from the Trumpeter kit, as it's fabric winged.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Nocoolname said:

possible to get the correct RAF codes in this scale so I can just create my own version? 

RAF codes are the unappreciated RAF area of complexity.   No 'font' no running order specified,  a specified size of 4 feet high, which no fighter could accommodate... so you go from 24 in to 40 inch variants....

The above look to be 36 inch, (roundel is 35 inch)  basically, find a similar era 312 Sq photo, and use that as a guide, as the codes were reasonably consistent IN a squadron at a given time. . I'd need to to do some more searches for a better code image.

 

OK, http://www.postcards-from-slough.co.uk/home/hawker-hurricane-langley-airfield/hawker-stories/

 

"Fastest air combat victory

On 8 October 1940 (one day before John Lennon's birth), RAF Speke was witness to what is thought to be the fastest air-to-air combat kill in the Battle of Britain and possibly of all time. Flight Lieutenant Denys Gillam took off in his Hawker Hurricane from Speke to be confronted by a Junkers 88A, M7+DK of 2/KGr806, passing across him. Along with Alois Vašátko and Josef Stehlík flying Hurricanes L1926 and L1807, Gillam took part in the shooting down of the Junkers while his undercarriage was still retracting. Credit for the kill was given to the whole of 312 Squadron, was credited with the kill but the moment was caught in a painting by Robert Taylor called Fastest Victory which depicts Gillam’s Hurricane ding the deed. Because of modern detection technology this fastest victory record is not likely to ever be beaten.

Hurricane I P2575 of Flown by Flight Lieutenant Denys Gillam of 312 Squadron RAF took part in the fastest air combat victory"

 

P2575 MAY have had the Hurricane De Havilland prop unit still fitted,  as the switch to the Rotol ES/6 occurred later

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

The Trumpeter kit only has the ES/6 Rotol. 

 

I need to eat.   I'll add more if I can find anything

 

[72modeler]

Evidently DU-P was serialed Z2836, according to the 310 and 312 Hurricane registry I was able to find and linked below. You will need to scroll down quite a ways to get to its history. Doesn't help you with any special markings, since it appears to have been a presentation aircraft, but I'm no @Troy Smith! Hope this helps. Not sure what you meant by 'the fastest kill' do you mean it was the first victory for the squadron or destroyed with the fewest rounds of ammunition, or was destroyed immediately after the aircraft took off?

Mike

 

https://fcafa.com/2012/06/02/hurricane-aircraft-of-310-sqn-and-312-sqn/

 

According to the RAF Commands database, Z2836 was a Mk II from the 5th production block and was fitted with a Merlin XX. as also confirmed on the Hurricane Site maintained by Dr. Colin James Pratt-Hooson

 

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=Z2836

 

Scroill to the 5th Hawker production block for Z2836

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

 

Just now saw Troy's post while I was typing mine. If his post is correct, and your codes for the 312 Sq. Hurricane coded DU-P are correct, then it doesn't look like DU-P, Z2836 was the airplane that scored the fastest kill, but I'm just making an assumption based on the facts posted. What do you think, Troy? @Troy Smith

Mike

Edited April 19, 2021 by 72modeler
added link

[Troy Smith]

52 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

Just now saw Troy's post while I was typing mine. If his post is correct, and your codes for the 312 Sq. Hurricane coded DU-P are correct, then it doesn't look like DU-P, Z2836 was the airplane that scored the fastest kill, but I'm just making an assumption based on the facts posted. What do you think, Troy?

Just checked the same site

https://fcafa.com/2012/06/02/hurricane-aircraft-of-310-sqn-and-312-sqn/

 

"P2575
DU-P Mk.I

Trans from 73 Sqn to 312 Sqn then to 55 OTU.

This aircraft with Sqn/Ldr Frank Tyson as pilot, took part in 312 Sqn’s first operational sortie on 04/10/40. Only a few days later with Flt/Lt Denys Gillam at the controls, it was one of three involved in the shooting down of Ju.88A (Wrk No 4068) M7+DK of 2/KGr806, over Liverpool on 08/10/40."

 

The lined site has images of other era 312 Sq planes, showing the starboard side reading DU-P  (this varies between squadrons so you need pics of both sides)

Also shows reasonably consistent style of code letters.    Pic reproduced under fair dealing

 

Codes look to be 30 inch high (compare to roundel, which is 35 inch)

 

 

The two above are post Nov 1940, as they have Sky band.

 

NOte, without a photo of P2575,  you into best guess territory

Interestingly this is listed as Z2836, a Mk.II, 

but  I'm not so sure that is right, as this has features that a Mk.II would not have, like the full fin stripes, and non standard fuselage roundel, and what could be an ES/6 spinner, although it's hard to make out with glare.  

 

I'm away from my Air Britain, so I don't know what occurred with P2575, but since they were out the main area of the battle, and this is winter 40/41, so if P2575 stayed with 312, this maybe an image.  @Geoffrey Sinclair maybe able to add some info here.

 

@Nocoolname,  the reason for the point about the roundel and fin stripes, when built, P2575 would have looked like this

http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/hurr1/hurr1-12.jpg

 

no fin stripes, 35 inch A type roundel, the yellwo ring and fin stripes came in May 1940, and there were many variations, like the roundel having a yellow ring added,  in different widths,  from a narrow ring, say 2 inch, to a full 7 inch ring, making one of those oversize 49 inch roundels, as well as fin stripes of varying widths. 

OK, a bit more digging,  J in this image IS P2575, 

 

note the De Havilland Hurricane prop, note also the 'broomhandle' aerial still on these early P**** series airframes. 

 

this is X in the above image after the squadron codes and yellow ring were added, which look s to be a 3 inch ring,  but still in France

 

from here 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235083989-hurricane-73-sq-france-may-1940-tp-o-p25-but-early-windscreen-fitted/

 

I'd presume other 73 Sq planes got a 3 inch yellow ring, but it could, and did, vary.  (the correct 35 inch type required a full repaint of the roundel BTW, hence the simpler option of the adding a yellow ring) 

 

for a fuller explanation of what marking changes occurred when, and why, read this linked monograph

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Hawker-Hurricane

 

Note the camo diagram, the variety of fin stripes and underwing roundels

 

Someone may know more about the winter DU-P image,  I don't know if it 's P2575 or not.   

 

Anyway....  something to ponder on @Nocoolname,  have a read of the info and links,  I have tried to give you some background info on what you asked about,  so you can work through the deduction process, though it may just give you a headache......

 

HTH

[Nocoolname]

Thanks both! That’s an awesome amount of detail. I’m going to go through it and see what I might make of this kit, especially if the metal wings rule out the original idea. I’m looking at some of the Techmod sets for alternative ideas. Thanks again for the above, great stuff! 

[Troy Smith]

21 minutes ago, Nocoolname said:

especially if the metal wings rule out the original idea.

P2575 is metal winged.   

 

The only thing the Trumpter kit does not have is the DH prop, and if P2575 still had this when with 312 Sq, I don't know.   If the DH unit got damaged, then a Rotol unit would have been fitted, but if it was not, then it's unlikely to have been changed.   Without a photo of P2575, whose to say.    

You could use a modified Airfix Spitfire prop,, or just 'as is'  when they modified the Mk.I tool to make VB, they added another prop, so DH Spitfire units are out there in spares box land.  Note as it is the DH Spitfire unit, while fitted to some early hurricanes, is wider at the base.  but honestly, I'd know,  and if you read the linked thread, or have the Wingleader Hurricane book, and knew what you were looking at....   I spent sometime on facebook Hurricane modellers group and many of the modellers there really had no idea about any of this....  or even the differences between Marks...  It was to often  a bit depressing. 

 

Also, overall the Trumpy kit is very impressive.  I don't like the recesses rivets, the radiator is, I think OK for a MK.I, but has a Mk.II core, (they use the same in the Mk.I and Mk.II kits) and the block trad tyres are from warbirds.... but,  whoever they got to do the shapes really knew their stuff,  (I'm still amazed they didn't shrink it down to 48th and 72nd, )  I mean, it's one of those rare kits, where the harder you look, the better the shapes get.... I get your not a Hurricane nut,  but they are funny beasts, most of it is really simple, except where it's not, like the nose contours.   Admitedlly it's been a while since I looked at My IIC kit, and i don't own the Mk.I, but AFAIK, they got the the main differences right.

Note, in comparison, the Airfix 1/24th kit is pretty distorted,  mostly as they made the engine and gun bays to scale, and thus the nose is too big overall and wings too thick as result.... and it pains me to say that as when I was 10 it was the best kit ever.....  

 

   

 

As an aside, L1926 was an early plane,  I make it the 379th Hurricane built,  (note that L1547, first production Hurricane,  served with 312, see the link) 

I think 'M' here, is L1926,  in early 1939 with 3 Sq

Hurricane I by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

you can see why a new prop was fitted.......   do have a careful read of the links though,  as I've done the donkey work for you,  it maybe a bit of an overload at first, but it should make sense ...if not, ask for clarification

 

cheers

T 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

RAF Serial registers data,

P2575 Taken on Charge 16 December 1939, 10 MU unknown date, 73 Squadron 13 March 1940, 21 AD 23 May 1940, Airtraining? 4 MU "B" 20 June 1940, 5 MU 11 August 1940, 312 Squadron 10 October, Rolls Royce SAS ""B" 11? (looks like 4) October 1940, 312 Squadron 22 October, 55 OTU 2 February 1941, Category E 23 May 1944.

 

L1807 arrived at 312 Squadron on 31 August 1940, to Rolls Royce 4 MU 9 October, back on 22 October, to 55 OTU 16 January 1941.
L1926 arrived at 312 Squadron on 31 August 1940, to Rolls Royce SAS 13 October, back on 15 October, to 55 OTU 16 January 1941.

 

To knock out Z2836, it was Taken on Charge 27 February 1941, 18 MU "A" 2 March, 32 Squadron 9 March, sent to Russia 15 May 1942.  

 

https://fcafa.com/2012/06/02/hurricane-aircraft-of-310-sqn-and-312-sqn/

 

So the arrival date of the 10th contradicts the report of P2575 being at 312 Squadron on the 4th.  However the squadron records of the 8th give P2575 as the aircraft Gillam flew (assuming I have read it correctly through the watermark at the British National Archives site), the section took off at 16.10 and landed at 16.20, all three Hurricanes sustained slight damage, Gillam's windscreen was "smashed".  All three pilot's combat reports from 8 October 1940 are also readable on line at the British national Archives site, Gillam puts the height as 1,500 feet, others 1,200 feet.

 

The next 312 squadron operational sorties were on the 11th and included L1807 flown by Squadron Leader Tyson, P2575 with Squadron Leader Ambrus, L1926 with Pilot officer Vašátko.  So the squadron records are showing the dates in the RAF Serial registers are approximate at times, not absolute.

 

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/APS.HTM

A comprehensive list of Hurricane serials, but treat everything else as a suggestion.  For example, the notes about metal wings for the first and second Hawker production blocks, the production blocks themselves, the engines (II, III, XX and 29 only for production types), the fate of the Austin built aircraft, just about everything other than serials for Canadian production.
 

[gingerbob]

5 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

So the squadron records are showing the dates in the RAF Serial registers are approximate at times, not absolute.

 

I'm beginning to suspect that the dates in the individual aircraft records are often the date that the clerk recorded the change of allotment.  It is not at all unusual for these dates to be 2-3 days behind what's recorded in the ORBs.

[tonyot]

If you want to make a Speke Hurricane,... you could do it as an aircraft of the Merchant Ship Fighter Flight which was home based here,..... they flew Sea Hurricane Mk.Ia`s,..... which was basically a Hurricane Mk.I with catapult spools and a head rest fo the pilot,.... in modelling terms. Some had the blunt rotol spinner,.. but most had a longer spinner or a DH prop.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hawker_Sea_Hurricane_Mk_I_of_the_Merchant_Ship_Fighter_Unit_being_lowered_onto_the_training_catapult_at_Speke,_Liverpool,_for_a_training_launch,_March_1942._CH15390.jpg

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by tonyot

[nimrod54]

You may find this link useful if you want more info on the 312 action. 

 

The Bromborough Dock Ju.88 Incident

 

Cheers

John

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, nimrod54 said:

You may find this link useful if you want more info on the 312 action. 

 

fantastic find John

 

in the link,  note this image of P2575, I cropped this out 

 

 

Well. @Nocoolname, you want to do P2575.... it's got easier..... no code letters at the time!   

 

Looks to have been repainted to standard, so 35 inch A1 fuselage and 24 wide 27 inch high fin flash, like to have 45 inch underwing then.  (see Ducimus guide)

 

Still has broomhandle aerial, and looks to have a De Havilland prop,   for which I suggest asking for in the wanted section. 

 

Note, you could swap the Rotol ES/6 unit, as most Mk.II Spitfires had this unit fitted  

 

cheers

T

 

[Crimea River]

The Robert Taylor painting mentioned depicts the aircraft used as DU-Z

 

http://www.vectorfineart.co.uk/_images/robert-taylor/fastest-victory.jpg

[Troy Smith]

31 minutes ago, Crimea River said:

The Robert Taylor painting mentioned depicts the aircraft used as DU-Z

 

http://www.vectorfineart.co.uk/_images/robert-taylor/fastest-victory.jpg

It also shows the codes a Z-DU, while photos show they codes read DU-Z.   

And when does the painting date from?  Simply as we now have so much more information available easily to cross reference.

 

In the uncropped image of P2575,  the Hurricane in the foreground has squadron codes.    (see link) 

 

Uncoded at the time of the incident seems quite possible as having just arrived at the squadron. (see dates above)

 

 

[Crimea River]

Yes, Taylor didn't always get it right despite his best efforts. Just pointing out that somehow he determined the a/c to be Z, not P. One thing he did do well was to talk as much as possible to the people involved in his scene subjects.

 

I have all his books on aviation art and know this painting appears in one of them. However, it's not featured in any of the tables of contents and so must be one of the supplemental works that are scattered throughout the narratives. I'll take a deeper look to see if I can locate it and get a date.

[Crimea River]

No date for the painting found but it would have to predate the book printing year of 1991.

[Nocoolname]

Finally had the chance to catch up with this thread and take my time over the excellent content provided, many thanks to you all for your help. I'm going to have another think about my original idea and what might be feasible based on what the stock kit can provide for. I'll have a look and see if there are more options available to do a Speke build in 1/48 instead and perhaps build the Trumpeter jut OOB. Lots to think about. Thanks again folks!

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Nocoolname said:

I,ll have a look and see if there are more options available to do a Speke build in 1/48 instead 

Airfix new tool, all the kits have the same plastic.  It has the De Havilland Hurricane propeller,  and a pole aerial is easy to make.   

The Hase kit is hard to get, and I really don't recommend the Italeri kit.