North Atlantic Camouflage 1944 - Help Please

[BBRBOB]

Can anyone help with the minefield that is Royal Navy colours in 1944-45 please? My father served on board the Captain Class Frigate HMS Inman in the North Atlantic and I'd love to take a break away from aircraft and make models of his ships. Now  Inman was an Evarts class versions so I've found that I'll need a USS Evarts from Ironshipwrights.com with various resin mods and etch etc. I then need to work out what colour scheme and camouflage they wore and this is where it gets tricky.

 

I could model them straight from delivery wearing their shiny US colours but I'd ideally prefer a war weary, just completed 6 weeks at sea version from late '44.  There are very few images of Inman available and some people online have said that it was an overall grey, however on the photos available you can just about make out a line / hump of colour that matches where Sovereign Hobbies publication of C.B. 3098 THE CAMOUFLAGE OF SHIPS AT SEA 1943 shows for a Captain Class (Plate 20).

 

These photos were probably so edited / filtered during the war that it's so difficult to actually work out what they were. So I'm lost and need help – Am I looking at overall grey (507C) or White with the simplified Western Approaches pattern in B55 or is it just a poorly overpainted combination of the two carried out hurriedly in dock?  The pendant number also looks very dark as I thought they were meant to not be too much of a contrast?

 

These are the two pictures readily available -

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for any help you can give. Bob.

 

[robgizlu]

Hi Bob 

I've spent a while looking at these under high magnification.

I've looked at the colour profile on p 57 of CB 3098 (R).  

The pennant number in my opnion is definitely black.  

There is a white object in front of the funnel on the broadside pic which appears to be part of the boat davit.  I cannot see the boat which is presumably launched.

The white object is represented on the second port bow view so appears real rather than artefectual.  With the eye of faith, at high mag you may agree that the crews uniforms show elements of white at the neck.

The single lifebuoy is clearly dark

Logically, the whte object makes it highly unlikely that this hull and superstructure is white

I can make out quite distinclty in both photos, a triangle block amidships as per the Admiralty design.  The contrast with the hull colour is marginal.  There appears to be no aft colour block nor are there colour variations on the aft gun platforms as might be expected if the admiralty instructions had been followed to the letter.

If the hull colour is not white which I think highly likely it is a light colour with marginal contrast to the colour block.  

Given the time attribution of 22.05.1944 cited for the bow photo, we are dealing with "G" colours.

 

I think the highest probability is that the hull and superstructure is G45 and the colour block (as per Admiralty diraction) is B55 which explains why there is such low contrast 

As ever I'd be interested to know @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies and @dickrd's take on this.  

It's atypical but the more schemes I see, the more I realise the number of non "authorised" combinations that seem to have existed 

I'm personally very happy it is not "overall" grey - there is definitely a colour block

HTH

Rob

 

[dickrd]

Rob: "I'm personally very happy it is not "overall" grey - there is definitely a colour block"

 

I am away from my references at the moment but I think your analysis is spot-on Rob!

Edited April 25, 2021 by dickrd

[neilh]

Would the reference source from Sovereign also be an appropriate one for a "Buckley" based Captain Class DE?  Still planning the build of my Grandads ship HMS Rupert so happy to invest the £9.99 for a download if it is.

[BBRBOB]

It's a really interesting document that's well worth a read.  It goes into the theory of camouflage at sea and the different effects, colours  and patterns that were used in different locations and conditions.  I certainly understood far more after reading it!  There are 3 patterns displayed which are ones for the Western Approaches, the Light Admiralty type and Intermediate type.  It all depends where the ship was used and what period you want to model.  As you can see from the photo of my Dad's ship, the scheme didn't actually conform to the correct pattern anyway.  These workhorses weren't the most photographed of Royal Navy ships, but looking at this photo of Rupert it looked to have one of the schemes (Intermediate?).  I'm sure someone else more knowledgeable will be along to help.

 

 

I'd like to say a huge thankyou to robgizlu for his work helping me.  I thought I'd studied the photo enough but then you are really shown the way by people that know what they're talking about. I was lucky enough to visit the USS Slater in the USA with my Dad as part of the lottery funding for veterans, and I have to say I'm glad I didn't have to serve in the North Atlantic in one!!

 

Bob.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by BBRBOB

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I think HMS Rupert there above may be wearing standard Scheme C, as per CAFO2269/44 rather than the disruptive pattern schemes in vogue when C.B.3098(R) - 1943 edition was promulgated. If I'm correct it's overall white with a geometric panel of B55. Scheme C was the replacement for Western Approaches type designs after a particular battle was won which convinced the Admiralty that disruptive pattern designs were a waste of time and the simple standard schemes would work just as well in the circumstances where paint could make any difference anyway.

 

The standard schemes from CAFO2269/44  were reproduced again the 1945 edition of C.B.3098(R) which I made as a smaller addendum without all the background text reproduced and it's also cheaper

 

 

[neilh]

Thanks Jamie,

I know Rupert had a disruptive scheme at one point as I have seen one photo online. My Grandad served on her since collection from the USA until the end of the War, but most of the photos I have been able to find of Rupert were when she served with the 21st Escort group as in the picture shared, so that is the scheme I am aiming for.  Will shop later this morning once pesky work conf calls are over!

[BICKERTON]

 

Hello Bob,

 

Glad to read that I am not the only one to be interested in Captain Class Frigates. I have recently been on this forum because I plan to build a vintage revell 1:250 scale model of HMS BLIGH which I shall build as HMS BICKERTON (by the way, BICKERTON is my nickname on this forum.

I have read with great interest you post on HMS INMAN. It looks overall G45 pale grey.  Like our other fellow member Rob, I had a closer look at it and, like Rob, I can spot a subbtle triangular shape amidship.  You will find a few pics below with my notes. I suppose this is also the same shape Rob is referring to in his earlier post. 

Now, about the possible color of that triangular shape, I see it very slightly darker than the G45 hull and overall structure.

If it had been painted B55, I believe it would have been standing out lighter compared to the G45 background of the hull and superstructure (B55 Light Reflectance Value is higher than that of G45..)  so, in order for it to show darker (although slightly) it should  have been B30 which is the next inferior LRV after G45. Even so, with a 15% LRV difference, iI think the contrast would have been sharper...

Maybe there is another possible explanation: It is not unlikely that HMS INMAN might have received a Western Aproaches Camo pattern in earlier times after being commissioned and repainted with R.N. colours.. This might have been overall G45  with a much darker camo pattern painted G10. Something like HMS GRINDALL or HMS FOLEY (see GRINDALL picture below)

Eventually, HMS INMAN may have been repained overall G45 but the former very dark G10 paint wouls still show underneath... Also, maybe the underlying coat of G10 would have become apparent due to exposure to sea water and weathering...

Anyway, this is only a hypothesis. I am not a real pro like Rob or Jamie and I am just willing to try and help finding possible explanation.

Based on a drawing I had made for my BICKERTON, I modified my drawing for it to sort of simulate what HMS INMAN could look like based on the above assumptions and guesses.

I wish you every success in your assembling and painting your HMS INMAN

 

Best regards

 

Alain

 

 

 

 

[GrahamB]

Add the aft section of darker tone as it is just visible.

[BBRBOB]

 

Talking about the early US delivery camouflage schemes for Captains... It's been said on here and other sites that they were delivered in US 5-P Pale Grey with US 5-N Navy (or darker) irregular stripes like on this photo provided by BICKERTON

 

 

Now actually my Dad was also on the Bayntun for it's commissioning, workup and first tour (is that what they called them?). This lasted until she had the dockyard incident in Belfast (my Dad had his own ideas on what caused this). In one of the photos taken before she went into any British dockyard, it looks to me like there is definitely a third colour in this US applied scheme amidships. Does anyone have an idea what this might be as it looks like it would be an attractive scheme?

 

 

I have been looking at old BW photos and have now started to see all sorts of lines and shades where before they just looked grey.  I think I agree with GrahamB that on the Inman photo the aft block is just about visible (if you change the contrast and squint a little).

 

Bob.

Edited April 23, 2021 by BBRBOB

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

39 minutes ago, BBRBOB said:

 

Talking about the early US delivery camouflage schemes for Captains... It's been said on here and other sites that they were delivered in US 5-P Pale Grey with US 5-N Navy (or darker) irregular stripes like on this photo provided by BICKERTON

 

Some may have been but most appear to have something drastically lighter than 5-N

http://www.navsource.org/archives/06/images/076/0607602.jpg

 

This is what 5-N looks like on a Captain class frigate, and plenty were delivered in this scheme:

[BICKERTON]

Hi Bob, Hi Jamie,

 

Very interesting.. I like reading comments about Captain Class Frigates..

 

The pic posted by Jamie is USS BUCKLEY somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean in 1944, isn'it ? Lower part of hull is US 5-N Navy Blue and upper part and superstructure would be US 5-H Haze Grey, right ?

 

HMS BALFOUR had a fairly similar camo scheme although I do not know what it was called by Admiralty.. Nor do I know what the true colours were.. I guess G45 for the superstructure and G10 for the lower portion of the hull ( or was it B15 ?)

 

Anybody has an idea or an answer to this.  Quite an interesting camo scheme too, that HMS BALFOUR, for Captain Class Frigates fans...

Regards

 

Alain

 

[Stephen Allen]

The delivery scheme for Captains was a bespoke disruptive scheme invented by the USN and used exclusively on the Captains. You can usually tell if its the delivery scheme because the darker tone was carried over the boot topping down to the waterline. It’s often described as Pale Gray and Sea Blue, usually by RN or British observers, but by late 1943, when the Captains were being delivered, Sea Blue (5-S) had been replaced in USN use by Navy Blue (5-N). The scheme has a very light overall appearance, and I personally am of the view that the slightly darker tone in the delivery scheme was probably Thayer Blue. The lighter tone could be Pale Gray, or even white, which would make it an equivalent to the USN Measure 16. No idea about the colours on the later graded scheme worn by K464, but the photo is taken well after introduction to RN service.

 

cheers

 

Steve

[dickrd]

16 hours ago, Stephen Allen said:

The delivery scheme for Captains was a bespoke disruptive scheme invented by the USN and used exclusively on the Captains.

The various paint schemes on the Captains are indeed tricky.  Perhaps easiest to de-cypher to some extent is the delivery scheme.  But a question first: what is the source of the oft-repeated suggestion that the delivery disruptive scheme was invented by the USN?  

[Stephen Allen]

That’s a very good point, and it is only a supposition (certainly on my part anyway) based on how the transferred units were repainted into other schemes.  It would seem likely that the RN, through the relevant Purchasing staff, would have at least provided advice to the shipyards if not more rigorous specs, and there must be a class design sheet somewhere. 
 

Published  sources are not explicit, and the widespread repainting may have occurred due to unavailability of the originally used paints once ships began looking tatty, as well as changing tactical requirements. There must have been a supporting logistic organisation in Belfast supplying American specific equipment, spares and supplies for these ships; radar spares, ammunition, engineering consumables etc, but would you include paint in scarce shipping if the RN had its own?
 

It would be fascinating to know the true genesis of the scheme and know why, for example, only the disruptive tone was carried over the boot topping - it suggests some very literal following of instructions specific to the delivery of the British Destroyer Escorts based on RN practices in camouflage.  I would also love to know how long the Captains kept their original antifouling coatings in RN service - the USN stuff was reputedly very good and one of the key elements (along with machinery design and use of boiler feed additives) in keeping their vessels at sea for extended periods. Its the one USN  paint you would want to keep using, if you could.

 

Steve

[Stephen Allen]

And, just reading up on docking intervals for USN vessels using the WW2 era antifouling paints, eighteen months between dockings has been suggested, so perhaps many of the Captains kept their original antifouling coatings to the ends of their RN careers.

 

Steve

[dickrd]

This the special Home Fleet destroyer scheme in CB3098R/43:

 

 

This is HMS Obdurate June 1943 in a version of the special Home Fleet destroyer scheme:

 

 

Clearly the tones/colours are not exactly as per CB3098R. Such variation was common. Note that Obdurate’s white pendant numbers were lighter than the light toned camouflage painted area towards the bow. This light toned area must therefore have been a light grey not white as per CB3098R.

 

This is HMS Calder (bow right), said to be in September 1943, in the delivery disruptive scheme with Obdurate (bow left) in her special Home Fleet destroyer scheme immediately beyond her. I have labelled my take on the likely colours on Obdurate (and Opportune which was beyond Obdurate): 

 

 

 

It is immediately apparent that the light-toned areas in the Captain Class delivery scheme on Calder were a light grey, not white, a light grey that was slightly darker than the light grey on Obdurate. It is also apparent that the blue in the Captain Class delivery scheme was a medium blue very similar in tone to the B30 on Obdurate (and Opportune) behind.  I don’t think it can have been USN Thayer Blue, which with RF 50% was considerably lighter, or USN 5-S which (even if some old stock was being used up) with RF 11% was considerably darker, or US 5-N which with RF 9% was likewise was considerably darker.

 

For another perspective on the colours and tones of the delivery scheme here is what I think is probably Narborough in a still from a bit of contemporary film:

 

 

Unless some source documentation turns up to prove the delivery scheme was American designed I prefer to keep an open mind. As far as I can tell this idea stems from the writings of one individual in 1997. He gave no source for his statement and said that American colours Sea Blue and Pale Grey were used. Sea Blue looks wrong…

 

Overall the design strikes me generally as fairly British in its flowing style.  An arch-shaped downward curve on one side versus a bowl-shaped upward curve on the other feature in various Leamington disruptive designs. If it was Leamington designed we can guess that they would have specified British paints. But if these were not available in the US shipyards we can guess that the Americans would have matched or mixed to match (I don’t think there was a USN blue at RF c30%?) these as closely as they could with American paints. 

Edited April 26, 2021 by dickrd

[BBRBOB]

Again I am in awe at the knowledge shown by people on this subject,  From what I read, US colours were produced by adding an appropriate pigment to white in the dockyard to make the shade of blue or green they needed.  Presumably the dockyard manager may have been shown a shade of blue provided by the British and then just mixed a shade to roughly match what he saw?  All of the grey / blue delivery schemes looked to have been to the same pattern.  So do we think that the area I've marked on the photo is either just a shadow or an area where water etc has marked the side of the ship?  I haven't seen this on any of the other Captains.

 

 

Bob.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

1 hour ago, dickrd said:

 

 

 

It is immediately apparent that the light-toned areas in the Captain Class delivery scheme on Calder were a light grey, not white, a light grey that was slightly darker than the light grey on Obdurate. It is also apparent that the blue in the Captain Class delivery scheme was a medium blue very similar in tone to the B30 on Obdurate (and Opportune) behind.  I don’t think it can have been USN Thayer Blue, which with RF 50% was considerably lighter, or USN 5-S which (even if some old stock was being used up) with RF 11% was considerably darker, or US 5-N which with RF 9% was likewise was considerably darker.

 

But if these were not available in the US shipyards we can guess that the Americans would have matched or mixed to match (I don’t think there was a USN blue at RF c30%?) these as closely as they could with American paints. 

 

Richard, the closest US paint I'm aware of in tone would be 5-O Ocean Gray which isn't very blue at all. The following is intentionally a mishmash but I think it fairly conclusively eliminates 5-O as being the paint seen above on HMS Calder. If it was made using US paints, they would have had to have mixed it using their white base and ultramarine tinting paste.

 

[dickrd]

1 hour ago, BBRBOB said:

Again I am in awe at the knowledge shown by people on this subject,  From what I read, US colours were produced by adding an appropriate pigment to white in the dockyard to make the shade of blue or green they needed.  Presumably the dockyard manager may have been shown a shade of blue provided by the British and then just mixed a shade to roughly match what he saw?  All of the grey / blue delivery schemes looked to have been to the same pattern.  So do we think that the area I've marked on the photo is either just a shadow or an area where water etc has marked the side of the ship?  I haven't seen this on any of the other Captains.

 

 

Bob.

Bob,

In my version of this photo there seems to be a horizontal demarcation within this slightly darker area, and the lower aft edge of it fades out to match the light toned paint. I therefore don't think that this a deliberate extra camouflage panel but guess it is either a touch up mismatch or mixing imperfection in that area of paint or perhaps some water wetting from washing down the deck above? 

You do get these sort of mismatches when touching up the paintwork with fresh paint....

 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by dickrd

[Stephen Allen]

I’ve learnt more in a few brief posts here about the possible Captain class colours than in all the reading done to date. The possibility of US Shipyards mixing ‘RN equivalent’ shades is fascinating.

 

cheers

 

Steve.

[BBRBOB]

5 hours ago, Stephen Allen said:

I’ve learnt more in a few brief posts here about the possible Captain class colours than in all the reading done to date. The possibility of US Shipyards mixing ‘RN equivalent’ shades is fascinating.

 

cheers

 

Steve.

I believe the US did do this for aircraft ordered by the UK producing an equivalent to Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky.  Like you, I've learned more in this thread about Captain's camouflage than I've read anywhere else online. Thank you guys.

[Dave Swindell]

4 hours ago, BBRBOB said:

I believe the US did do this for aircraft ordered by the UK producing an equivalent to Dark Earth, Dark Green and Sky.  Like you, I've learned more in this thread about Captain's camouflage than I've read anywhere else online. Thank you guys.

US built aircraft for the UK were painted either with US manufactured paints matched to British MAP specs, or later with specific US ANA paint colours selected as alternatives to British colours. They weren't ad hoc on site mixed paint colours.