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453rd Museum build No.1.5 - Tamiya 1/48 P-51B -BROKEN Shangri-La


Tcoat

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As I said in woody3z's build thread 

I am planning to build the broken and ready for transport version of the Shangri-La. Thus the title here (used with his gracious permission). 

He has put me in contact with the 453rd Museum and although not an official build for them I will be shipping the finished product over there to add to woody's intact aircraft build. 

Since the kit is still on it's way from Winnipeg (how they get here faster from Japan I will never understand) I may be a tad premature in starting this thread but will be looking for some expert assistance in some of the details so figured I may as well get a head start.

 

So...

This was the picture in woody's thread that triggered me :

51108436532_05bfa7d9a1_c_d.jpg

 

A quick check online indicated that for me to put the Merlin in it would cost about twice what the kit did and although I am not as cheap as I may seem that was way more than I wanted to spend.

But, a bit more research meant I totally lucked out because I found this:

43435608shangri-la-crash-3-jpg.175554

 

Tarps I can do!

There are several pictures of the crash so I can match most details pretty close.

GentileP-511.jpg

r7EUUm458tx38d-S-H7rTZdkd7o6tXQ66J2bpFZ3

shangla.jpg

media-401121.jpg

media-377311.jpg

 

Through my research I learned that this aircraft was only 6 to 8 weeks old and flown 11 or 12 missions (accounts differ) at the time of the crash so that is going to have  an impact on the amount of weathering on the parts not impacted by the crash. The old colour shots are deceiving in that their colour is so off I thought that there was a lot more wear and tear on it than there probably actually was. 

 

Looks blotchy but I believe that is just from the picture being enhanced so many times over the years. The red is certainly WAY off. These aircraft were of course used under very adverse conditions and some wear is expected and evident but it really will be restricted to certain areas and not the overall aircraft.

 

hs6t0bsgang61.jpg

 

I did find it very odd that as famous as this pilot, aircraft and cash are I did not find a single diorama of the plane split in half. A couple of it on it's belly but none of ready for recovery. 

 

So that is my opening statement and if anybody has or knows of any other crash/recovery photos I would love to take a look!

 

 

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27 minutes ago, steh2o said:

I'd ask Wade Meyers

https://www.wademeyersstudios.com/

he did a good amount of research about "Shangri La" for his "one man air force" print, some of it was online on his site.

I think he can help you.

Cheers

Stefano

Thanks I will check that out!

The problem is that although I am reasonably comfortable with the externals I need to model the rarely seen or photographed internals. 

There are scads of line diagrams and some sort of shady colour callouts available but since there really is not much in the broken area references are scarce.

Each end is closed off by a bulkhead (#36 Aft and #48 forward) with the break someplace around where #37 is shown. 

attachment.php?attachmentid=199538&stc=1

 

The most reliable source I have is this colourized drawing by Norm Meyers (Any relation to Wade?)

It seems to show green zinc chromate skin with darker structure. 

image253.jpg

 

But many pictures show structure as YZC.

19911656820_3aa8a2bb50_o.jpg

 

 

Edited by Tcoat
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OK Mustang kit has arrived but before I can construct I have to do some deconstruction. This will be the third nice Tamiya kit in a row that the first thing I did was break out the saw and cut it up!

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=199704&stc=1

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=199703&stc=1

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=199702&stc=1

 

51126249819_9609e7173a_h.jpg

 

What I am not going to worry about is the incorrect wheel well layout or curved cockpit floor since neither will be a focal point of the finished product.

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On 4/16/2021 at 2:37 PM, Tcoat said:

 

It seems to show green zinc chromate skin with darker structure. 

image253.jpg

 

But many pictures show structure as YZC.

 

 

 

That profile is an Allison type whereas your YZC aircraft is a Merlin, could that make a difference?  Also B vs C and D vs K were different factories?

To be honest I would suspect the green on the profile is an artistic idea to emphasise the fuselage shape.  Afterall the rudder was fabric covered so likely to be dull red dope internally?  And would the radiator pipework really be painted turquoise? 😎

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4 hours ago, malpaso said:

That profile is an Allison type whereas your YZC aircraft is a Merlin, could that make a difference?  Also B vs C and D vs K were different factories?

To be honest I would suspect the green on the profile is an artistic idea to emphasise the fuselage shape.  Afterall the rudder was fabric covered so likely to be dull red dope internally?  And would the radiator pipework really be painted turquoise? 😎

The drawing is from a leading restorer and marked as a B so it would be a Merlin. I am thinking that the colours just got off in transferring to electronic. This would make the light green yellow, the darker green green zinc and the rad pipe blue. 

This is sort of supported by all the pictures of B types that clearly show yellow inside any open panels. 

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2 hours ago, Biggles87 said:

I imagine it’s pretty difficult to destroy a kit convincingly, so I’ll tag along if I may.

Good luck.

 

John

It isn't really that difficult. The trick is that since nothing looks quite like torn and buckled aluminum as torn and buckled aluminum it is just a matter of replacing the the plastic with appropriate materials.

 

Just a more extensive version of this:

attachment.php?attachmentid=199742&stc=1

attachment.php?attachmentid=199743&stc=1

attachment.php?attachmentid=174063&stc=1

attachment.php?attachmentid=174067&stc=1

attachment.php?attachmentid=174068&stc=1

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36 minutes ago, Tcoat said:

The drawing is from a leading restorer and marked as a B so it would be a Merlin. I am thinking that the colours just got off in transferring to electronic. This would make the light green yellow, the darker green green zinc and the rad pipe blue. 

This is sort of supported by all the pictures of B types that clearly show yellow inside any open panels. 

I’m seriously worried if a leading restorer thinks that’s a drawing of a B.  The carburettor air intake on top of the cowling and smaller belly radiator intake both confirm this is an Allison airframe in the drawing!

But you’re probably right the colours may have gone wrong in digitisation...

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6 minutes ago, malpaso said:

I’m seriously worried if a leading restorer thinks that’s a drawing of a B.  The carburettor air intake on top of the cowling and smaller belly radiator intake both confirm this is an Allison airframe in the drawing!

But you’re probably right the colours may have gone wrong in digitisation...

Well it is from the internet so it may be called a "B" by somebody far distanced from the guy that actually drew it. 

I am not a Mustang guy at all so they all look the same to me anyway. 

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4 hours ago, perdu said:

Better than decent beginnings, I'm over by the bar, can I get you one?

The plastic on this kit was insanely easy to cut. It is so soft that the ailerons and rudder only took a couple of swipes with a #11 blade and off they came. Needed almost no sanding to clean up they came off so nicely. Not that the Tamiya plastic is ever really "hard" but this is so different than normal I have to wonder if they have farmed out the moulding work on some of these older kits. 

Not complaining since it made my life easy!

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Still struggling with the inside primer colour choice. 

This is a newer version (and a restore) that shows the green on main components and yellow on secondary.

 

ToulouseNutsApr2017-6.jpg

 

An enhanced picture of the damaged section does show what appears to be a darker colour on the main with lighter colours (arrows) on secondary.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=199930&stc=1

 

I suppose I may just be overthinking this whole thing and either way will be close enough to "correct". 

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I do not think there is enough tonal difference on those inner parts to say one was yellow chromate and the other interior green judging from the photo.

 

You may be pushing a non-existent envelope by pursuing the yellow bits.

 

More wartime pictures are needed before you commit totally methinks.

 

I love the concept for this one.  👍

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22 minutes ago, perdu said:

I do not think there is enough tonal difference on those inner parts to say one was yellow chromate and the other interior green judging from the photo.

 

You may be pushing a non-existent envelope by pursuing the yellow bits.

 

More wartime pictures are needed before you commit totally methinks.

 

I love the concept for this one.  👍

Ya there is not a huge difference but enough that I don't think it is just lighting. Wartime colour pictures of that section just simply don't exist I am afraid. 

There is enough evidence in restoration pictures to show that they mixed and matched the two primers. Probably based on where components came from I would guess.  I think I am just going to do the green with some random components yellow and call it a day. If nothing else it will highlight the damage better. 

 

Overall green with some yellow parts. 

ToulouseNutsApr2017-9.jpg

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Difficult call really, but do not forget these are being restored with longevity in mind.

 

But a few yellow zinc chromate pieces would likely be under there anyway.

 

Right to go for it.

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15 minutes ago, perdu said:

Difficult call really, but do not forget these are being restored with longevity in mind.

 

But a few yellow zinc chromate pieces would likely be under there anyway.

 

Right to go for it.

Yep. Was amazing that they primed as much as they did during initial construction considering the life expectancy of operational combat aircraft could be measured in weeks. 

Even in the last picture I posted there are places where the new green is chipped that shows yellow underneath so even the restored aircraft are confused! 

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19 hours ago, Tcoat said:

Still struggling with the inside primer colour choice. 

This is a newer version (and a restore) that shows the green on main components and yellow on secondary.

+++

An enhanced picture of the damaged section does show what appears to be a darker colour on the main with lighter colours (arrows) on secondary.

+++

 

I do not consider myself to be an expert, I just have a faint memory of some discussion going on in https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/23-wwii/ stating "yellow" is where one layer of zinc chromate primer was used and the material for the second layer had some black mixed into it, so the painter would see where the second coat was applied (or not). So I would expect there must be some old official documents regarding how many layers of primer were to be applied at what area/part and that should give a clue. To be safe one should try to find the thread I believe to remember and then search for the old docments.

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18 hours ago, Tcoat said:

Was amazing that they primed as much as they did during initial construction considering the life expectancy of operational combat aircraft could be measured in weeks. 

could be.  A lot is about different metals interacting.  And while they may have had short life spans, painting a few bits is small expense in overall terms.

There has been a lot of research done on this over the years,  the chap for this  @Dana Bell

 

20 hours ago, Tcoat said:

Still struggling with the inside primer colour choice. 

this got posted the other day by @Tourist

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235086308-revell-132-p-51d-5na-mustang/page/2/&tab=comments#elControls_4064650_menu

"P-51D-10-NAs like all the earlier production blocks had less anti corrosion protection than later blocks.

- Main wheel wells.

Based on photos I have seen the main spar had a coat of YZC, the "roof" was left aluminum with YZC stringers, the front spar was also left aluminum with only the most inner part (through which the coolant lines pass) finished in YZC.

The ribs were left aluminum.

Various braces on the YZC finished parts were finished with tinted (green) ZC.

The separation wall between the wells was YZC with the small vertical braces being green ZC.

 

- Engine.

The bearers were interior green.

The firewall could be interior green or YZC, the oil tank was YZC or left aluminum, the header tank was YZC or aluminum.

The frame onto which the cowlings attach were left bare metal.

 

-Tail wheel bay.

Like the main wheel wells it was mostly left bare aluminum, the various braces were YZC.

 

Feel free to play with these, there was no exact recipe and details changed all the time as long as the basic principles of (minimal) anti corrosion were followed."

 

So, mostly bare aluminium with yellow Zinc Chromate would seem to be the answer.   The more informed members mentioned may weigh in hopefully.

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3 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

could be.  A lot is about different metals interacting.  And while they may have had short life spans, painting a few bits is small expense in overall terms.

There has been a lot of research done on this over the years,  the chap for this  @Dana Bell

 

this got posted the other day by @Tourist

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235086308-revell-132-p-51d-5na-mustang/page/2/&tab=comments#elControls_4064650_menu

"P-51D-10-NAs like all the earlier production blocks had less anti corrosion protection than later blocks.

- Main wheel wells.

Based on photos I have seen the main spar had a coat of YZC, the "roof" was left aluminum with YZC stringers, the front spar was also left aluminum with only the most inner part (through which the coolant lines pass) finished in YZC.

The ribs were left aluminum.

Various braces on the YZC finished parts were finished with tinted (green) ZC.

The separation wall between the wells was YZC with the small vertical braces being green ZC.

 

- Engine.

The bearers were interior green.

The firewall could be interior green or YZC, the oil tank was YZC or left aluminum, the header tank was YZC or aluminum.

The frame onto which the cowlings attach were left bare metal.

 

-Tail wheel bay.

Like the main wheel wells it was mostly left bare aluminum, the various braces were YZC.

 

Feel free to play with these, there was no exact recipe and details changed all the time as long as the basic principles of (minimal) anti corrosion were followed."

 

So, mostly bare aluminium with yellow Zinc Chromate would seem to be the answer.   The more informed members mentioned may weigh in hopefully.

Thanks! Every time I think I found a definitive answer there was somebody that said the opposite so I think I am just going to do a bit of each as seems appealing to the eye and worry about contrast more than 100% accuracy (if there is a such thing). 

I presume the final product is going to end up in a cabinet so anything that will help make the details pop a bit will help viewing. 

What I am not going to do is putty the wing panel lines which from what I read during my research should send some people right over the top anyway! Pretty sure there was blood shed in some of those discussions on other forums.

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Hi all,

 

Beyond the tech orders and specs, in early 1942 Wright Field gave North American Aviation an exemption from priming its California-built P-51s, AT-6s, and B-25s.  The company didn't have the painting facilities to keep up with production needs.  Primers served three purposes - corrosion control, static electricity reduction, surface preparation for finish coats.  For P-51Bs this meant that you'd see very little interior color other than the natural (unpainted) aluminum.  The cockpit was painted to reduce glare, and the faying surfaces for the fuselage structure were primed with a single coat of yellow zinc chromate to reduce intergranular corrosion with the skin.  (The structure was usually painted with a hand roller to save time and primer; once the skin was attached, the primer was hardly visible.)  The main wing spar was primed with yellow zinc chromate to reduce corrosion and cut down on static buildup - remember that the fuel tanks were just aft of the spar.

 

Despite growing evidence of corrosion problems in Mustang wheel wells, Wright Field continued to deny that there had been any negative reports.  Eventually, at some point in production, primer and finish coats were added to the main gear wells, but not until long after Gentile's crash.

 

I hope this helps with your project - certainly an interesting and unusual presentation, and I look forward to seeing the results!

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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