BICKERTON new member

[BICKERTON]

I have retrieved an old scale model box and I want to build it. It is a vintage Revell 1:250 scale kit of HMS BLIGH.

For lack of info on HMS BLIGH K467, I wish to build it as HMS BICKERTON K466. Photos are available on the webb for both BICKERTON and HMS KEMPTHORNE . Camo scheme was identical for both ships, Both were  operational in 5th escort group in Belfast as from late 1943.

Available original pictures are all in black and white. Can anybody help me in finding what the camouflage colours were for HMS BICKERTON (as well as HMS KEMPTHORNE) in August 1944 ? 

My guess is that it could be Overall Off White with a Dark Grey G10 triangle in the first section of the hull and two geometrical shapes (one trapezoidal shape mid ship and one triangle at the rear of the hull) both painted slightly greenish light blue B55 .

Does this make sense?

Many thanks for your help and valuable assistance.

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi,

 

Is this the scheme you mean?

[BICKERTON]

Hi Jamie !

Exactly ! Thanks for your quick answer.  I have also found another picture of HMS BICKERTON which was taken soon after her stern was hit by a GNAT torpedo during the night from 22nd to 23rd August 1944 in the Barents sea. It is a blow up of the mid ship section, where both colours meet. For me the lighter one (which looks light grey on the B&W picture) may probably be Off White while the darker shade may be B55.

It is a pity I do not know how to post pictures on the forum because I  have just joined in and I am not familiar with the BM system yet.

What I can say is that I made an experience using the Microsoft Photo Shop app. I first started from the original B&W picture and made it lighter till the light grey part of the hull would look almost white ( LRV near to 65) . Then I copied B55 from your Sovereign Hobbies colour palette onto the darker portion of the hull.  I repeated the same experience using B30 and B15  successively. Then I converted all coloured pictures into B&W prints again to check how they would compare with the original B&W pictures in terms of LRV.

Well, the colour which showed the best match was B55.  I have investigated the path of the blue shades  (B15,B30,B55) only because I found it hard to imagine that the camo pattern woud be either G20 (too dark) or G45 ( lighter but still darker than B55) Also, based on all the litterature available, the White and B55 combination for DE operating in northern latitudes was very widespread...

At this stage of my investigations and findings, I decided to join a forum and seek the opinion of pros and experienced skillful members...

I avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate you for your scientific , rational  and most relevant approach of R.N. colours in WWII !

Best regards

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi,

 

I think the first step here is to give you some calibration. On the colours G5, G10, B15, G20, B20, B30, G45 and B55 the numerical digits describe the Light Reflectance Value. In greyscale / black and white they look like this, so B55 will never look dark.

 

 

I think on Bickerton you are probably seeing G10 and either G45 or B55.

[BICKERTON]

Hi Jamie !

Thanks for being so quick in answering me

I fully agree with you.

LRV are of prominent importance. I am fully aware of this.

If we hold for true that the main colour for the hull and superstructure was Off white, chances are that the dark triangle at the bow would be G10 ( mind, it might have been B15 as well because there is little difference between G10 and B15 in terms of LRV) but my personnal guess is that it was G10.

My main doubt is for the mid ship and stern parts of the hull... As you say, G45 and B55 are very close one to the other...

If it was G45, that would mean that the camo pattern would have been in two shades: White with two shades of greys, G10 at the bow and G45 for the other geometrical figures on the hull, trapezoid shape midship and triangle at the stern.

Any argument in favour of B55 instead of G45 ? 

Later on in the war, some ships, including some Captain Class frigates wouls be painted in Admiralty Standard overall Off White with a B55 rectangle on the hull...

In your own opinion, would B55 have been a possible or quite likely colour instead of G45 ?

That is the most dificult part of the problem. R.N. ships colour scheme and patterns are definitely a tricky issue...

Thank for your valuable help!

Regards

 

Alain (French for Allan)

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

Hi Alain,

 

I believe all the darker shapes are the same colour. It is common for shapes under the bow to appear slightly darker due to the shape of the hull here.

[BICKERTON]

Hello Jamie,

Here I am again.

All darker shapes same colour? Well, I wouldn't have thought of that...

It is true that the curved shape of the bow must affect the LRV to a certain extent.

So there would be 2 options left:

EITHER: a two-tones  colour scheme with overall Off white and B55 camo shapes. If concealment was the main purpose, White +B55 would be most appropriate for operations in North Atlantic as well as in Artic areas. But... Contrast between Off white and B55 is really low.

If we look again at the B&W picture, the black pennant number K466 would show a much stronger contrast with B55...

Also, I read a comment posted some time ago by Allan RAVEN who says that, after reaching British ship yards, Some Captain Class frigates were repainted in a Western Approches pattern made of Overall White and B55...BUT, he says, later in the war, B55 was replaced by a medium Grey colour....

OR: a two-tones colour scheme with overall Off white and a grey shade for camo shapes.  There aren't somany grey shades to choose from... G5 and G10 would be really dark and would show a very strong contrast with the overall white.  Of course, if the purpose of that camouflage pattern was to create disruption instead of concealment, strong contrast would be appropriate. At the other end of the grey shades scale, we have G45. This pale slightly bluish pale grey would also show very little contrast with the overall white.. as for B55, the black pennant number would stand out much stronger on a G45 background..

So, the only remaining option for greys would be G20 ... some sort of "medium Grey" as Allan RAVEN puts it.

On my test drawings, I have tried to replace B55 by G20... and I must confess it is fairly convincing , but this is nothing but a drawing.

Assuming the camo pattern was grey and not B55 as I initially believed it was, what kind of grey would be most likely to the best of your knowledge and expertise?

Many thanks again for your time and skillful expertise.

 

Regards

 

Alain

 

P.s: I have images in my microsoft picture library but I still do not know how to do to post them here... can anybody tell me what I should do with these images and pictures of mine to be able to share them with you here ?

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I would bet good money that the darker shapes are not B55. B55 is very light, always, and tends to look almost white.

 

The darker shapes are clearly a dark colour, but not so dark that the black pendant number is lost, hence why I think the darker shapes are something like G10.

[robgizlu]

I've followed the arguments.  For my money, part of the answer lies with Kent in the background.

I'm certain Kent did not have B55 - What I take to be the G45 areas on Kent match the hull tone and superstructure for Bickerton.

I feel the dark hull colours are G10, as highlighted by the difference with the black pennant number and is similar to many other RN schemes

However - in the 2 separate pictures there is an unequivocal second colour in the "middle" dark (G10) block with a horizontal divide, the lighter being topmost which is very unusual

I think that top colour matches the B15 patches in tone on Kent.

 

So Overall G45 with G10 Splinter patches, the middle one of which is topped off with B15

Interesting

Rob

[BICKERTON]

well, I'm moving ahead...Thanks!

 

let's forget about B55, then.

 

G10 would be a possible option. Contrast with overall Off white is quite strong. 

 A two-tones  White +G10  would not be an unlikely combination for those D.E. in mid 1944 in those areas...do you think so ?

Now, I have to take into account the scale effect. I hold for true that Sovereign Hobbies' G10 is the exact color as it was painted on R.N.  ships during the war. Indeed, I've read with utmost interest your analysis of R.N. colours in WWII.  Very interesting.. your comparison of Kew and Portsmouth samples with the results of your re-making paints using genuine recipe, pigments and proportions as stated in A.F.O.2106, May 1943 etc... fantastic.!

Now, G10 would be o.k. for the real thing 1:1 scale.  If applied to a 1:250 scale model, chances are that it  would be much too dark...

So, with a view to taking the scale effect into account, shouldn't I use G20 instead ?

Also, I was so involved into the finding of the hull colours that I overviewed the DECK  colours...

G20 or B30 ? What do you think?  B30 had become quite a standard by mid 1944, hadn't it ?

 

Last but not least I have also read a bit on internet about URL hosting sites where I could store my pictures in order to be able to share them with other B.M. members (including you, of course !)

Which site do you use? Can you recommend a free one for me?

 

Many thanks again and have a nice W-E !

Best regards

 

Alain

[robgizlu]

Hi Alain.

I use Flickr.  A lot of people usd Photobucket which abruptly changed from being a free hosting service to a high fee use service causing chaos amongst hobby sites resulting in many photos disaearing forever.

A salutary lesson as to the dangers of using free services on the Internet.

Flickr is well established and offers 1000 photos storage free (with adverts) then you pay beyond 1,000 pics or pay up front for no advert hassle free storage.

If you choose Flickr - come back to me and I'll talk you through the steps which are pretty straight forwards.  It's been hassle free and completely reliable to date IMHO

 

As to deck colour - a bit of a nightmare really.  it's very difficult to discern from the majority of wartime photos that weren't shot from above.  if Semtex was used, theoreticaly it should not have been painted but there are hints it sometimes was.

From 1943, apparently - B30 was appropriate for Western Approaches schemes and for "Light" or "Intermediate" Admiralty schemes, the approved colours were G20 and G10 respectively.  Anti - slip RN grey which is of a G10 shade is another possibility - I'm not certain many will argue with your choice.

 

I've never been sold on the "Scale colour" lightening argument, and personally have never employed it on AFV or Naval models.  G20 is considerably lighter than G10 and personally I feel using it - you'll lose the contrast so evident in the original photos.

Looking at original colour photos, few that they are, underlines how lurid and contrasting were, the RN colours, B15 in particular.

Keep musing (it's half the fun)

Salut

Rob

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Alain, I use Flikr too, although my son set it up for me. I'm a technological neanderthal.  As Rob says, you get 1000 photos stored free, and after nearly three tears I've used up about 550 of them. I store all my photos on my own computer and only upload onto Flikr those that I'm going to post on the forums (I'm a member of two). I've had no problems with Flikr at all. HTH. Regards, Jeff.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

G20 is also a different colour colour compared to G10, so the final result will look substantially different. The images I posted about are pure grey-scale images to help convince you that the dark colour cannot possibly be B55. It doesn't mean G20 is a "scale effect" substitute for G10. G10 is bluish whilst G20 is greenish.

[BICKERTON]

Hi Rob

Thanks for your help and relevant comments

I have chosen Flickr

I have logged in and have and address.

I have downloaded a couple of pictures into mt Flick galery

I have copied the URL address and  copied it into the "insert image from URL" space in this page...

But nothing happens....

Starting from the picture I have in my gallery in Flickr, please can you tell me , step by step, what i have got to do to post my picture into this forum?

 

Sorry for bothering you with that but I am not at all familiar with these new processes... i must have been overviewing one step somewhere...

Have a nice week.

 

More comments on BICKERTON camo tones and colours once I have solved that image posting problem...

Best regards

 

Alain

 

[BICKERTON]

On 17/04/2021 at 17:27, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

G20 is also a different colour colour compared to G10, so the final result will look substantially different. The images I posted about are pure grey-scale images to help convince you that the dark colour cannot possibly be B55. It doesn't mean G20 is a "scale effect" substitute for G10. G10 is bluish whilst G20 is greenish.

Hi Jamie,

 

Fully agree with you.

G10 and G20 are two different shades.

I'll leave G20 aside and stick to G10.

I have drawn a sketch of BICKERTON profile and painted White and G10. I shall try and post it on this forum as soon as I know how to do that.

I have downloaded Flickr on my computer, logged in, downloaded a couple of pictures. These are now in my Flickr gallery.

I have made them "public", retrieved the URL access code of the picture and tried to copy that into the "insert image from URL" in the box appearing in the the lower right corner of this page...but nothing happens.

As you may have read, another member (Rob) is also ready willing and able to offer some assistance to me on this issue.

Posting pictures is a great leap forward because it saves time and avoid lengthy descriptions while avoiding misleading information.

Anyway, as a new member, I am very happy to be here and to talk to nice fellows. Again, many thanks to all and sorry for  expressing myself in some sort of basic English. As a French speaker, I am not too familiar with technical words in the maritime technology but I am doing my best.

 

Best regards

 

Alain

[BICKERTON]

Hi Jamie,

 

Fully agree with you.

G10 and G20 are two different shades.

I'll leave G20 aside and stick to G10.

I have drawn a sketch of BICKERTON profile and painted White and G10. I shall try and post it on this forum as soon as I know how to do that.

I have downloaded Flickr on my computer, logged in, downloaded a couple of pictures. These are now in my Flickr gallery.

I have made them "public", retrieved the URL access code of the picture and tried to copy that into the "insert image from URL" in the box appearing in the the lower right corner of this page...but nothing happens.

As you may have read, another member (Rob) is also ready willing and able to offer some assistance to me on this issue.

Posting pictures is a great leap forward because it saves time and avoid lengthy descriptions while avoiding misleading information.

Anyway, as a new member, I am very happy to be here and to talk to nice fellows. Again, many thanks to all and sorry for  expressing myself in some sort of basic English. As a French speaker, I am not too familiar with technical words in the maritime technology but I am doing my best.

 

Best regards

 

Alain

[BICKERTON]

Trying to post a picture of HMS BICKERTON simulation with white and G10 camo scheme.... picture

[BICKERTON]

Alain is trying to post a picture of HMS KEMPTHORNE

Starboard view: two-tones camo: white (orG45??) + G10.    No trace of B13

[robgizlu]

Alain  -ton Anglais est tres bon!!

Je parle Francais commes une vache Espanol 

 

So Flickr. though it looks like ce marche.  When you sign in, you have a cloud shaped icon top right as you view the page

L click on that and it invites you to "choose photos and videos to upload"

click on the link and it will take you to your OS where you should naviagte to your "pictures" (at least in Windows)

When it does choose the pics you want to upload 

Then press "open" and they'll upload to Flickr - you need to press the top right icon which says "upload 1 item"

And then another screen propmpt to upload

Et voila - il a apparu.

To upload to Britmodeller - L click on the photo which will fill the screen - there are some icon on the bottom Right (as you look at the page) 

L click on the curved Arrow "share" - this opens a screen with an alpha-numeric - "Copy that" and "paste" into the appropriate bit of text in the Britmodeller thread

You are done 

Salut

Rob

I've just posted and so have you - looks like you have got there already 

Well done

Rob

[BICKERTON]

Hi Rob

 

Many thanks... !

 

It is a small step for Humanity but a big one for me...

 

A good picture is much better than a long description.

Hey, I wouldn't have suspected that you would be speaking French !

 

Congratulation 

I'll be back on the forum soon 

 

Take care and have a nice week

 

Regards

 

Alain

 

 

[BICKERTON]

Hi friends !

Talking about BICKERTON again...

Last week Rob posted a message saying that he had noticed a dividing line in the amidship section.

You know, that sort of trapezoïd shape .. Rob said this dividing line was clearly visible on both BICKERTON and KEMPTHORNE original pictures. Rob guessed that the upper wave might be B15 while the wave shape below could be G10...

Now, we know for sure that camo pattern on R.N. Captain Class frigates was identical on both sides, don't we ?

Well, I have a couple of other pictures of BICKERTON (sinking from astern after being hit by the GNAT torpedo on 22nd August 1944)

and another picture of HMS KEMPTHORNE( approaching to provide assistance to HMS Nabob and BICKERTON survivors on the same night.)

I have added those pictures below (Yesss, I know how to post pictures, now.. doesn't always work but I keep on trying hard!)

On these pictures, the dividing line does not show anymore...

In fact, one may wonder what the purpose may have been to paint a G10 wave on the hull and another wavy shape B15 above it, since the LRV difference between G10 and B15 is a mere 5%... what is the good of it?

 

Maybe the apparent dividing line is a mere coincidence because B&W pictures are often misleading...or maybe that part of the hull was exposed to sea sprays and moisted paint would look slightly darker ? ..or light reflection on the bright white wave foam may have affected the appearence of colours on the hull...? I frankly do not know..

I would be interested to read Jamie's opinion on that issue.

To sum it up: I still find itquite akward to mix G10 and B15 on that portion of the hull only.

Based on your valuable opinions and personnal analysis , I am now pretty sure Camo pattern was G10 and not B55 as I originaly believed it might have been.

I am still hesitating about the overall structure.... on the pictures, both these ships look really Off white. Many other D.E: at that time were painted white, including a large quantity of Canadian Navy ships.. (mainly Destroyers and Corvettes) 

Would there be a dramatic difference between Weathered Off White and G45 ?

Let me know about your guess on that point, please...

Once more, many thanks for your valuable comments and relevant comments.

 

Also, congratulations to Jamie for his investigations and drawing of HMS JAMAICA... nice job. It will surely be a valuable contribution to the maritime scale modellers's world !

 

Best regards to all

 

Alain

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robgizlu]

Hi Alain

You might want to check out the other thread current regarding Captain Class Frigates

 

I've been through all the photos I can find on IWM collections, Nav Source and U.boat.net.  I hadn't realised what a a variety of schemes they wore, and indeed how many of them there were.

There were clearly a number of repeated "generic" schemes, though Bickerton and Kempthorne were the only 2, I could find with this scheme

Everything you say about B&W photographs and the difficutly of interpretation is true.  However I am unconvinced that I have seen a single photo that unequivocally shows a background of white.

My personal feeling is that all are in G45 - as is the case with Inman mentioned above 

As to the Separate colours in the midships colour block - agree that it's very unusual.  The fact that it's apparent on 2 separate vessels is to to me telling.  It's of course possible that it's artefactual, and I accept that it is not apparent on the "sinking" pic or the second Kempthorne pic, though both are not of best quality.  Interestingly Styamer and Dacres both use schemes with apparent G10 outline and a second lighter "infill" colour.

 

Interpreting schemes without colour photograph evidence is exasperating.  At this level off debate nobody is going to accuse you of getting it wrong whatever you choose.

Salut

Rob

[BICKERTON]

Hi Rob, hi Jamie, hi friends

 

Many thanks to Rob for spending so much of his time in in-depth investigations about R.N.  Captain Class Frigates  from late 1943 to end of WWII. These nice vessels are claimed to have sunk more U-boots than any other class of ships during the second half of WWII...

What we know for sure is the camo scheme worn by these ships when they left the US shipyards ( either Bethlehem Hingham or Boston) and when they were transferred to R.N. and commissioned in Bermudas. It was Overall US 5-P Pale Grey with US 5-N Navy Blue camo irregular waves. (see my drawings below, colours may not be really accurates because I copied them from a Colourcoats palette but it gives an idea).

US 5-P pale grey may have been somewhat lighter than R.N. G45 but anyway....

If you look at the pictures of HMS BAYTUN, HMS AYLMER,HMS TROLOPPE below you will see that they, too, looked white in bright sunshine... really confusing and misleading, isn'it?

Based on this, I agree with you that , most likely, HMS BICKERTON  and HMS KEMPTHORNE were painted overall G45 pale grey..(with a slightly bluish hue).

All things considered, I think I shall use G45 for the hull and overall structure....

Anyway,nobody at this stage can deny it was G45 until somebody dives into the Barents sea, retrieves the wreck , scratches a bit of paint and brings it back to the surface to have it analysed !

Now, I made some simulations and drawings in my computer, using Microsoft PhotoShop and available Sovereign Hobbies Colourcoats palette. It gives an idea but I suspect the real NARN 22 G45, as it comes out of the tin, to be even quite lighter than it shows on the colour palette... So much the better.

By the way, if anybody has used NARN22 R.N.G45 on a scale model, I would be delighted to see a pic of any such finished scale model .

At least, this would give me a much better idea of what the real thing looks like... Many thanks in advance!

 

There we are...long way from where I started from.

 

Always very pleased to hear about your valuable comments. All of you seem to have a much long-dated skill and experience than I have.

Also more comments about likely Deck colour most welcome...

 

Look forward to hearing from you again soon

 

Best regards

Alain

 

 

 

[robgizlu]

Your wish .........my command

 507C/G45 with 507A (G10 is marginally darker) - he deck is antislip grey at focs'le 

 

 

507C/G45 hull to contrast it against white

 

 

and again contrasted with 507A and black - all paints are Sovereign.  Check out my other builds for further colour combos

 

 

HTH

Rob

[BICKERTON]

Hello Rob

 

Many thanks ! You have been very quick in answering my last post.

I am very happy and all these relevant infos go much beyond my expectations.

When I joined BM site a few days ago, I would never have expected meeting so many skillful, helpful, well informed and experienced people like you !

It is a pleasure, really. Thanks again.

This is exactly what I was after. 

I'll try and use sovereign paints, I really prefer enamels and I am much more familiar with enamels than with acrylics.

I gonna paint it overall G45 and  use G10 . It looks as if G10 would have been in use as from mid 1943 (A.F.O 2106, May 1943), according to Jamie's publications and in-depth studies and researches about WWII R.N. colours.

My problem is that, despite being of Belgian nationality, I am now  a Spanish permanent resident and I am not sure Sovereign hobbies paints will be available here. I viewed Sovereign Hobbies site on internet and I read somewhere that they would not be authorized to ship paints to Spain...

Well, I shall investigate all possible options. Sovereign would be my favourite by far but if it proves impossible to get those tiny tins of paint here I' have to manage and look for some mixture of traditional HUMBROL paints which I can easily find here...

I guess there might be some formula which would enable me to mix humbrol shades in the right proportions with a view to producing a rough equivlent to sovereign G45 and G10...fingers crossed....

 

I'll browse on BM site and look for more works of art of yours..

In the end, I have learned a lot on this forum ( be it only how to post pictures into the posts, ha,ha,ha..)

 

You will find a drawing hereunder. This is more ore less how I can imagine HMS BICKERTON would be like, then..

 

Best regards

 

Alain