British Sherman 75mm in Normandy (kit suitability)

[DieBlitzFather]

Hi all, I read a previous thread on here regarding building a British Sherman from the Normandy campaign which had a lot of useful information. However, I had a bit more of a specific question in regards to kit suitability/ compatability...

 

Basically I'd like to build a sherman during the fighting in Normandy in the summer of 1944 but the only kits I gather are suitable (Asuka free french M4A2, Dragon M4A2) are not available from any of the places in Europe that I order from and I don't fancy ordering from Asia or the US given customs and shipping expenses.

 

Okok, getting to the point- my question is this: would it be possible to use the Asuka or Rye Field Models Sherman Firefly kit(s) as a base and replace the turret with this older Tasca turret and 75mm barrel I have left over from way back? (M4 interior can be ignored for now 🙂 )

 

 

I used to build a lot of US Army Shermans back then but I'm a complete newbie when it comes to the British variants and it seems to be quite a hassle to figure out exactly which versions were used and what kits are suitable, so, I turned to this forum since it seems there are knowledgable people on here! 

I know there are other things like the stowage bin to consider, but I have done some basic scratchbuilding in the past and it is a fairly easy box-shape so I think I can manage to create one from styrene sheets with good reference. 

Cheers!

[JackG]

I'm thinking no in terms of using a Firefly hull to make an M4A2.  The VC is  based on the Sherman V (M4A4) and this is characterized by a longer hull.   The other Firefly Type IC as provided by Tasca/Asuka, is the Sherman I with composite hull - so neither match the M4A2 design.

 

On the other hand, some British units were equipped with these two types of 75mm Shermans in NWE.

 

regards,

Jack

[DieBlitzFather]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

I'm thinking no in terms of using a Firefly hull to make an M4A2.  The VC is  based on the Sherman V (M4A4) and this is characterized by a longer hull.   The other Firefly Type IC as provided by Tasca/Asuka, is the Sherman I with composite hull - so neither match the M4A2 design.

 

On the other hand, some British units were equipped with these two types of 75mm Shermans in NWE.

 

regards,

Jack

Thanks Jack, I guess I made it sound like I wanted to biuld an M4A2 specifically but really I don't mind if it's an M4A4/ Mk V as long as it's accurate for a British 75mm in Normandy.

 

So I gather for an M4A4/ Sherman Mk V this combo would work then 

[JackG]

Maybe, depends which kit the turret is from?

 

Try this, see if it matches what you have for a turret:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/75mm_turrets.html

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/gun_mounts/gun_mounts.html

Edited April 10, 2021 by JackG

[DieBlitzFather]

14 hours ago, JackG said:

Maybe, depends which kit the turret is from?

 

Try this, see if it matches what you have for a turret:

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/turret_types/75mm_turrets.html

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/gun_mounts/gun_mounts.html

Thanks for those links, great information! 

 

I believe my turret is from the M4A1 late production (kit #35012). The barrel and mantle is from one of the Tasca desert Shermans and seems to be the M34 gun mount with cheeks but I also have the later M34A1 gun mount and the additional armor patch (welded on type).

 

 

[John Tapsell]

The British used Sherman I (M4), Sherman II (M4A1), Sherman III (M4A2) and Sherman V (M4A4) in Normandy and NW Europe. Not only that but they used early, middle and late production versions of those vehicles all mixed together at the same time - especially in relation to the Sherman III. Each Brigade operated a specific type of Sherman to ease logistics. Exceptions to that rule were the Fireflies which were manufactured only on Sherman I and Sherman V hulls. The ARVs issued were generally based on the Sherman variant being used by the Brigade.

 

As a sample - Photo evidence shows that C Squadron of 13/18 Hussars (27th Armoured Brigade) was equipped with virtually all production variations of the Sherman III - early M3-style suspension, later M4 style suspension, narrow mantlet, wide matlent, direct vision hulls, welded driver hatches, cast driver hatches etc - that's across a squadron of 20 tanks. The tanks were all 'new' but many had been stockpiled in the UK since they first arrived from the USA so the tank stock exhibited features from across most of the production history of each type.

 

From memory:

4th Armoured Brigade used the Sherman II

8th and 27th Armoured Brigades operated the Sherman III (as did the Canadian 2nd Armoured Brigade)

33rd Armoured Brigade operated the Sherman I

 

The Armoured Divisions (except 7th Armd Div) all operated the Sherman V

-Guards Armoured Division (5th Guards Armoured Brigade)

-11th Armoured Division (29th Armoured Brigade)

-The Polish and Canadian Armoured Divisions also used the Sherman V

 

Perhaps the better option might be to identify a regiment you want to portray and that will inform the Sherman type you need to use.

[Radpoe Spitfire]

On 4/10/2021 at 5:34 PM, DieBlitzFather said:

Thanks Jack, I guess I made it sound like I wanted to biuld an M4A2 specifically but really I don't mind if it's an M4A4/ Mk V as long as it's accurate for a British 75mm in Normandy.

 

So I gather for an M4A4/ Sherman Mk V this combo would work then 

The M4A4 was used by the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanryin Normandy through to the end of the ETO.  As a recent unit, they saw more action than any other British armoured unit. 

[John Tapsell]

10 hours ago, Radpoe Spitfire said:

The M4A4 was used by the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanryin Normandy through to the end of the ETO.  As a recent unit, they saw more action than any other British armoured unit. 

Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry belonged to 8th Armoured Brigade and the Brigade was equipped with the Sherman III ( after July 1944, it was the only British armoured brigade in NWE so equipped). They didn't use the Sherman V as their primary Sherman type. The only Sherman V they would have used were Vc Fireflies and possibly a few Sherman V ARV (although they would have been largely Sherman III ARVs).

 

The DD tanks (US-manufactured M4A1s IIRC) that two of the SRY Squadrons used on D-Day were steadily handed back in as the campaign progressed and replaced with Sherman IIIs.

 

Neither were they a 'recent unit'. They had spent a very active couple of years fighting in North Africa (with 8th Armoured Brigade) and only returned to the UK in December 1943.

[DieBlitzFather]

Thanks for the information guys, seems there's a lot to consider when building a british sherman for this time period!

My initial idea was to build a tank belonging to the 4/7 Royal Dragoon Guards, 3rd Armoured Brigade after a skin and a photo I saw online showing tanks with a two tone camouflage.

 

 

I know the second picture is of a tank later on during the european campaign and not in Normandy but perhaps they used this camouflage as early as the summer of 44? I know colour schemes/ skins aren't always reliable but the firefly profile was labeled "France 1944". 

[John Tapsell]

The Firefly would be a Sherman Vc but the disruptive camouflage would not be normal. It was not authorised for tanks in NW Europe (but as your lower photo demonstrates, a few of them were painted this way later in the campaign). Disruptive camo was authorised for SP Guns (M7 Priests, Sextons, M10s etc) and more widely, but not universally, applied.

 

4/7 DG belonged to 8th Armoured Brigade (not 3rd Armoured Brigade) - they were the senior regiment, with 13/18 Hussars as the second regiment and Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry as the junior regiment in the brigade.

 

 

[Radpoe Spitfire]

13 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry belonged to 8th Armoured Brigade and the Brigade was equipped with the Sherman III ( after July 1944, it was the only British armoured brigade in NWE so equipped). They didn't use the Sherman V as their primary Sherman type. The only Sherman V they would have used were Vc Fireflies and possibly a few Sherman V ARV (although they would have been largely Sherman III ARVs).

 

The DD tanks (US-manufactured M4A1s IIRC) that two of the SRY Squadrons used on D-Day were steadily handed back in as the campaign progressed and replaced with Sherman IIIs.

 

Neither were they a 'recent unit'. They had spent a very active couple of years fighting in North Africa (with 8th Armoured Brigade) and only returned to the UK in December 1943.

Hi, I was under the impression that SRY used the M4A4  75 mm as well as the 17pdr Vc, so hands up if I was wrong👍

The word recent was a typo,due to my phone auto corrected🙄 it should have read Recce! 🤣

 

 

[John Tapsell]

43 minutes ago, Radpoe Spitfire said:

Hi, I was under the impression that SRY used the M4A4  75 mm as well as the 17pdr Vc, so hands up if I was wrong👍

The word recent was a typo,due to my phone auto corrected🙄 it should have read Recce! 🤣

 

 

These keyboards have a mind of their own

 

Actually, SRY wasn't a recce unit as such. 8th Armd Bde was an independent AB so it's role was to be 'attached' to whichever infantry division needed extra muscle for particular operations (including working with US troops at times). It's fairer to say that they were a close support unit, although that could mean scouting routes from time to time.

 

There is an unusually good selection of memoirs relating to SRY, all worth reading.

An Englishman at War by Stanley Christopherson (the Regimental CO for a good part of the war)

Alamein to Zem Zen by Keith Douglas (Troop Leader in North Africa and KIA on 9th June 1944 in Normandy)

By Tank into Normandy by Stuart Hills (Troop Leader in NW Europe)

A Tank Soldier's War by Arthur Reddish (a member of Stuart Hill's crew)

Tank Action by David Render (Troop Leader in NW Europe)

To War with Whitaker by Hermione, the Countess Ranfurly (the wartime diaries of the wife of one of the regiment's officers).

 

and most fascinating of all - The Man Who Worked on Sundays by Leslie Skinner (the Regimental Padre)

 

John

 

[Kingsman]

The Tank Museum Shop has the Asuka M4A2 Sherman III "mid production", which could be from pretty much any of the A2 factories except Fisher Body who uniquely used welded drivers' hoods.  I would say that they are trustworthy, and worthy of your support as they have been closed for months and reliant on shop sales.  Asuka kits remain stubbornly expensive, however.  £45-65 depending on the boxing and the kit.  The "value" kits don't have the photo etch but I don't know what else might be different.  The plastic will be the same and all Asuka kits have vinyl tracks anyway.

 

https://tankmuseumshop.org/products/asuka-1-35-british-sherman-mid-production-cast-drivers-hood?_pos=6&_sid=7fb9c5e6b&_ss=r

 

They also have the Asuka M4A1 and M4 Composite plus the IC Firefly.  Any of these would work for British NWE, although most Composites were converted to Fireflies so 75mm Composites are comparatively rare in British service.

 

The Dragon "Sicily" M4A2 works for NWE, as does their other non-direct vision Sherman III or their Tarawa M4A2.  As noted above the build standards in service varied tremendously, and remanufactured early direct vision A2s refitted with later features were still being received as late as Sept '44.  Dragon kits tend to give you lots of useful bits on standard sprues that can be used to make different build standards.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Das Abteilung
Bad spelling!

[DieBlitzFather]

Thanks for your help gents, I think I'm beginning to get a clear picture of the units, types of shermans and suitable kits at last. I did manage to find the Asuka M4A2 "value" kit mentioned for a decent price. I think I'll build it as a tank of the 13/18 Royal Hussars, 27th Armoured Brigade like those in the picture below. If I can't have a two tone camo I'll settle for those large colourful numbers 😁 

 

 

I think I'll pick up some other tracks, either plastic or metal and I don't think the kit has the stowage bin for the rear of the turret so I'll have to try my hand at scratchbuilding it.

[Radpoe Spitfire]

17 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

These keyboards have a mind of their own

 

Actually, SRY wasn't a recce unit as such. 8th Armd Bde was an independent AB so it's role was to be 'attached' to whichever infantry division needed extra muscle for particular operations (including working with US troops at times). It's fairer to say that they were a close support unit, although that could mean scouting routes from time to time.

 

There is an unusually good selection of memoirs relating to SRY, all worth reading.

An Englishman at War by Stanley Christopherson (the Regimental CO for a good part of the war)

Alamein to Zem Zen by Keith Douglas (Troop Leader in North Africa and KIA on 9th June 1944 in Normandy)

By Tank into Normandy by Stuart Hills (Troop Leader in NW Europe)

A Tank Soldier's War by Arthur Reddish (a member of Stuart Hill's crew)

Tank Action by David Render (Troop Leader in NW Europe)

To War with Whitaker by Hermione, the Countess Ranfurly (the wartime diaries of the wife of one of the regiment's officers).

 

and most fascinating of all - The Man Who Worked on Sundays by Leslie Skinner (the Regimental Padre)

 

John

 

I have both Keith Douglas's Alamain - Zem Zem and Stuart Hill's By Tank into Normandy. Both excellent reads. But I must get Pdr Skinner's book, having read Stuart hill's account of him conducting a funeral- in ful sight of a German tank, who's crew stood and watched. A very brave man, who's only arms were a dog collar, bible and his faith.

[Kingsman]

Just be aware that the Asuka "value" M4A2 has the very early M3-style top-roller bogies and is direct vision.  This is less common in NWE because it would have been built before autumn '42 but by good fortune it matches exactly the tank behind the band in your photo.

 

That kit doesn't have any of the usual British modifications AFAIK.  That means no turret stowage box, smoke dischargers, fire extinguishers or spare track brackets.  However, neither of the pictured tanks have the standard design 3-link glacis spare track brackets and I can't see any fire extinguishers by the rear lifting rings.  "Your" tank behind the band has the square-topped turret bin rather than the rounded-top version and an empty mounting bracket for the smoke dischargers on the right of the turret.

[DieBlitzFather]

2 hours ago, Das Abteilung said:

Just be aware that the Asuka "value" M4A2 has the very early M3-style top-roller bogies and is direct vision.  This is less common in NWE because it would have been built before autumn '42 but by good fortune it matches exactly the tank behind the band in your photo.

 

That kit doesn't have any of the usual British modifications AFAIK.  That means no turret stowage box, smoke dischargers, fire extinguishers or spare track brackets.  However, neither of the pictured tanks have the standard design 3-link glacis spare track brackets and I can't see any fire extinguishers by the rear lifting rings.  "Your" tank behind the band has the square-topped turret bin rather than the rounded-top version and an empty mounting bracket for the smoke dischargers on the right of the turret.

 

Good points, and well spotted on the photo, I hadn't even noticed there was a tank with the earlier bogies in it! I have the later style left over from other builds, I think they're from a Dragon kit so might be a bit fiddly to get to fit properly but should be manageable. The extra bits the Brits added I'll have to try and recreate from styrene sheet, I don't mind having to recreate some of these things from scratch as long as I have good reference photos. 

[Kingsman]

Those tanks have the T49 3-bar steel tracks.  Bronco do those in indy link plastic if you don't fancy the price of the metal brands.  Model Hobbies are showing stock of the Bronco for under a tenner.  T54s would be an age-appropriate fit too, as in the colour photo: those are the "cuff" version with curved cleat, also done by Bronco.

 

IIRC the turret box comes in brass in some of the Sherman etch sets: Voyager Sherman III, possibly - or the old Top Brass Additional British Parts set.  I do have a spare plastic one from a Dragon or RFM kit which I have  no obvious need for.  PM me your address if you want it. 

 

I might have some spare track brackets too, but the tanks in your photo definitely don't have them.  Those spare links are some sort of field mod.  Panzer Art and Resicast do the British pattern fire extinguishers, but the tanks in the photo don't have them either.  The smoke discharger bracket is a simple plate with 2 slots and a small triangular support bracket behind.

[John Tapsell]

Like this one from C Sqn, 13/18 Hussars just prior to D-Day. Not sure which Troop 'Challenger' belonged to and can't track down the turret number.

 

[Steben]

Whatever you decide on camo, do not forget 75mm Shermans were US olive drab, fireflies were scc15. Disruptive or not.